Talk:Birdo/GA1

GA Review

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Nominator: Pokelego999 (talk · contribs) 03:32, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Andrzejbanas (talk · contribs) 14:35, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Let's see what this character article crazy is all about. I'll try to take a good look at this article today and over the weekend. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:35, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Review first draft

I was going to go through a few detailed points, but there are some specific issues that are all over the map with this article.

Prose

• Throughout the article the terms "however" and "noted" are being used. Per MOS:SAY and WP:NOTED, these are words to watch as they imply truth on subjective ideas. Try to re-write all instances of these.
• Much of the article assume we are familiar with the Super Mario series, ranging from just casually talking about Super Mario Bros. 2 and Doki Doki Panic. There also seems to seems to be a bit of conflict with what is written and some sources used, some says Birdo was mistakenly called Ostro, other says "for unknown reasons" Birdo is called Ostro. Probably should give both a valid viewpoint here. Same with saying showing up in various Mario spin-offs. Most people stumbling upon this article via random article button wouldn't know what is a spin-off Mario game is, its probably better to dig out some more sources and say Mario Kart series or Mario Sports series then list them or ones where Birdo is making cameo appearance or even being a playable character.
• "The Japanese manual for Doki Doki Panic, when translated into English, states her name to be Catherine and is a male who thinks of himself as female, adding that she likes to wear a bow and would rather be called "Cathy." This and few others are really long-winded sentences. Perhaps simply "The Japanese manual for Doki Doki Panic has her named Catherine and writes that Birdo is male and thinks of himself as female." (Not sure how relevant the "Would like to be called Cathy" is for the topic at hand for example, as that doesn't really feel relevant like the Birdo/Biredetta gender dysphoria.)
• Same with "In the first edition manual for the English North American release of Super Mario Bros. 2, Birdo is referred to by a text block that states "he thinks he is a girl" and would "rather be called 'Birdetta.'"
  • Bit of a long chunky sentence. Perhaps "Text in the first edition manual for the North American release of Super Mario Bros. 2 stated that Birdo would "rather be called 'Birdetta'" and "he thinks he is a girl"."
• While the naming reference of Birdetta seems key for the transgender conversation, the mention of the Kathy over Catherine or the giant robot birdo seem trivial per WP:WEIGHT.
• The way some things are phrased are just coming off as unfactual. For example, the game says Birdo later appears in Super Mario RPG, but before mentions some GameCube games, giving their chronological history wrong. Same with Birdo receiving "generally positive reception" when the rest of two paragraphs talk about Birdo being problematic, not to mention ignoring the cite within the article of Birdo being on a "worst" Nintendo character lists.

Sourcing

• http://mariosmashfootball.nintendo-europe.com/player.cfm?lang=es is dead.
• "Mario Strikers Charged Football" archive URL has seemingly been removed from the wayback machine.
• The ""First Impressions: Super Mario Advance". IGN." article only states Birdo sounds like someone's mother, not that it was given a female voice actor. You might be able to re-use this with the note about how Birdo "had a deep voice in Japanese commercials, emphasizing her masculinity." from this article.
• The citation for Birdo showing up in Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga does not seem to be backed up by the source that does not mention the game.
• "Solid Gold: The Best of the NES from 1UP.com" makes no mention of Birdo or anything backed up by this sentence.
• "Life on the screen: identity in the age of the Internet" expand source with publisher, ISBN, etc.
• I audibly laughed as the author of the NintendoLife article being credited as "Life, Nintendo". There is a credited author here. :)

I'm not going to fail this as I think there is a lot of content here, but it really need some re-organizing. I'll leave it up to you @Pokelego999: (or any other interested editor) before giving it a more thorough review. Feel free to ping me if you have any more specific questions. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:16, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas made requested edits where I could. I have a few questions though, which I've listed below alongside fixes for some specific problems.

-Wikipedia:It should be noted discusses "noted" when the editor themselves uses it to address the reader and promote an opinion. It mentions nothing about the Reception, where we are stating that another author noted something and are not attempting to use noted to sway reader opinion. (Functionally different use cases: Instead of "It should be noted that Birdo is..." (Where the writer is attempting to push their opinion) versus "Author So and Such, writing for a website, noted in an op-ed..." (Where we are simply stating that somebody else has said this)) It shouldn't be too much of an issue given the use of this word in this context has no opinion-based connotations, and I have taken care not to use it outside of Reception. I did touch on the however problem, as most of those were leftovers from older edits I forgot to remove, though I am a bit confused in regards to "However"'s use case with the 100 Greatest Video Game Characters source, as MOS:SAY only describes "However" in the context of linking two or more sources, not in the context of describing differing angles within the same source.

So i'm glad you brought this up as "noted" still holds a sliver more weight than simply saying someone said anything. "Noted" is a bit more of a stressor, like "please note that the rent is due" suggests an implied importance of what follows, while simply saying someone wrote or said something is a bit more neutral. Compare it to the less urgent "The landlord said the rent is due at the end of the month" is a bit less pushy. This is mild, but I've had several reviews of my own where noted has been asked to be pulled without even claiming a rule, and I feel it makes things better. As for the However, even if its in its own book, it does suggest that one POV of an author more valid than their other issue. I read "howevers" so often in video game articles, even featured ones, and they are almost always used in reception right after some bad reviews are listed followed by some more positive ones. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

How would you suggest changing the 100 Greatest Video Game Characters source to remove However? I'm admittedly uncertain given both viewpoints are given relatively equal weight in the book. Also, though I personally disagree on the "noted" topic, I've taken the liberty of removing them from Reception regardless, so do let me know if the new wordings are alright. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

-Could you clarify what kind of edits you want me to make in regards to series context? Most of it isn't relevant for understanding Reception, hence why I avoided much description due to undue weight concerns. I feel I get sort of what you're saying (Defining what each individual game is, i.e, Mario Kart is a racing series, the RPG games are turn based combat games, etc) but I'm confused as to how you would want that accomplished best in the article, since I can see multiple different angles for fixing that. For now, I've clarified some information in the Appearances section regarding Doki Doki Panic and Super Mario Bros. 2.

I don't have it quite on hand, but I know one of the sources in the article did clarify some key information to people who may be approaching this from a "random article" perspective. I.e: one says that the narrative isn't a focus in the Mario series and another mentions that Birdo initially appears as a boss character. I think this would give context to new readers. Something to the effect of "Birdo is a character in the Super Mario series of video games. These games primarily focus on gameplay and have simple narratives. There is little information regarding Birdo in design and narrative in these games." Then you can move on to "Birdo first appears in Doki Doki Panic, a game that was later re-designed into Super Mario Bros. 2." This is important, as it comes into play a lot with the gender and trans discussions. Following that, I think saying "Birdo has since made appearance as a boss character in various games including as a boss character in Super Mario RPG (1996), Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (2003)...as a playable character in various Mario sports games such as (list two to three here) and cameo apperances in ______." I think listing every individual game Birdo shows up in might come off as a bit trivial, but it shows scope of Birdo's apperance, what they might do (they are playable! they are a boss baddie! etc.). If we add years to the end of games as well in the article, it also helps the reader read between the lines to get more information. Such as, Birdo first appearing in Doki Doki Panic (1987) and the years following this sort of fill in the blanks of the longevity of the character, showing up again throughout the games in the 90s, 2000s, and so forth. 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I believe you're referring to the TheGamer source? The article states "Narrative has never been all that crucial to Mario - hence why The Super Mario Bros. Movie was just a bunch of stuff that happened - and so we think of the characters in frozen states. Mario hasn't changed much over the years. Peach has gained a little more agency recently, but she hasn't struggled for it or earned it, she has just evolved with the times. The Mario characters are the same archetypes they always were, and that works for the Mario formula. But Birdo is a rare exception." I tried to adapt what I could from your suggestions, but I do worry your initial suggestion of describing narrative in the Mario series via this source may border on original research, so I just kept it to the basics. I've reorganized Appearances a bit per your suggestions, so let me know your thoughts. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for going through this. I think what I was trying to say were these key points

• "Narrative has never been all that crucial to Mario" which could be phrased as something like "In the Super Mario video games, narrative is generally not the primary focus with most characters being presented as archetypes. Stacey Henley of TheGamer said Birdo was an exception..." and then we can go into details of how Birdo has been interpreted. I don't think we're pulling too many words that aren't there from TheGamer article with that. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:49, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

-Removed references to Robirdo and some of the minor details you suggested removed. Also rephrased using your suggestions.

-I altered the text in the spin-off appearances section (Changed from later appearances to more correct text, I honestly forgot Double Dash got brought up prior to those games when writing this.)

-I've rephrased the lead to be a bit more accurate to the article content. Let me know your thoughts on this.

I think I brought it up before, but antagonist sort of suggests that Birdo is the main enemy in Mario 2. Not really the case as that would be Wart. I think Boss or if you can find such a description, "Mini-boss" might be more appropriate here. I'll make more suggestions as I get into the meat and potatoes of the article. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I've changed the phrasing from "antagonist" to "boss." Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

-Removed the Smash Football reference since I cannot find any citation reference outside of that link.

Unfortunate, but fair. Thanks Nintendo... Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

-I'm a bit confused on how you want me to utilize the statement about the ads with the IGN source. Could you clarify this information?

The phrasing said Birdo had a female voice actor, while the source I believe just said Birdo sounded like someone's mother. we can extrapolate this on how Birdo is presented from a gendered persepctive. Maybe an over-riding statement in the articles saying something Perhaps something like "Birdo has been presented with both male and female sounding voices in different mediums". Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Changed per your suggestion. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

-Fixed the Superstar Saga cite; I meant to cite Game Rant there, not TheGamer.

All good. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

-Completely overlooked the 1UP cite during my round of edits. I found a few sources that back up the statement, though they're small mentions, so I reworded it. Let me know if you want me to axe this section entirely.

The 1up source might be a bit more buried within the pages, I've seen some old citations just refer to this deeper in these multi-page articles. I didn't check that far, but might be worth digging into. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

-Added additional information on the book source.

-Nintendo Life has a weird thing with the citation templates where it generates the author as "Nintendo Life" instead of the author name. I try to patch that where I can but in this case I missed it. Thanks for the catch.

No problem. None of the issues should be brought up on my reflections as you or anyone as an editor to be fair, its just me doing the rounds on an article. I didn't notice it until a second or third quick check either. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Do let me know what you believe would be best as reviewer edit wise on some of these issues, as I do wish to clarify a few points before I make edits. Let me know if there's anything else beyond the above you'd like me to change, as well. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 01:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Hey Pokelego999. I've responded to your comments here and can probably do a more thorough review after these are done/responded to. Good work so far! Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas (talk · contribs) I've made edits per your suggestions. Apologies about the wait, my notifications didn't notify me for whatever reason and I've been busy the past few days. Let me know your thoughts as you take another look through the article. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:24, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Hey. I feel like when you edited one portion of the article @Pokelego999:, you didn't adjust this in other sections making it still a bit complicated. I've started going through the article when I noticed some parts haven't really changed to reflect your most recent changes and updates.

Phrasing

• Perhaps give the Japanese explanation of Birdo's name in a hatnote as its not really essential to understanding the article (but still info we probably shouldn't toss out). I'd make it follow the way its presented on the Jill Valentine article.
  • I have no idea why but trying to insert a hatnote just doesn't work (Mainly since I am very unfamiliar with their usage). I have an old version in Birdo's edit history (The one before my most recent edit) but I frankly have no clue how to get it to work. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• On reading, maybe "boss character" instead of boss enemy. As I don't think there are any other type of "boss" characters who aren't enemies in general terms.
  • I agree, not to mention this just is phrased better. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• "The English manual for Super Mario Bros. 2 describes Birdo as a man who "thinks he is a girl"." Not completely the case, as it doesn't say he's a man, they just use "he" pronouns. Perhaps re-phrase the manual describes "Birdo as a character who "thinks he is a girl."
  • Rephrased. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• "This led to Birdo being intepreted as transgender". Probably should say who had discussed this i.e: LGBTQ interest and video game publications. Unless there are more academic sources on this, we should probably say who is saying this as Birdo won't really exist in the mindset of people outside this stratosphere of fandom/social interests.
  • Let me know if the new wording is alright. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

This is a bit frustrating to write about as Nintendo does not really discuss this and constantly switches up the gender pronouns applied to this character. Again, I don't think we should just go into different lists of how Birdo has been interpreted in later games sentence by sentence. "In Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Birdo is referred to with "it" pronouns.[9] Birdo appears in the Wii Japan-only video game Captain Rainbow, which delves into Birdo's gender identity.[10] It specifically depicts her being imprisoned for entering the women's bathroom, and the player is asked to locate proof of her femininity (her vibrator) to get her out.[9] The European website for Mario Strikers Charged Football refers to Birdo as a male character,[11] while the game Mario Kart: Double Dash expresses confusion over Birdo's gender identity.[9] In the British English versions of Super Mario Party, Birdo is referred to with male pronouns." Probably try to re-phrase this whole thing as something like "Since the relase of Super Mario Bros. 2, games featuring Birdo have described the character variously as both male, female and an indeterminate sex or gender" Whatever you feel is best. There is some later Nintendo published material of Birdo being presented as female in this source noting Birdo being listed on a banner in Mario Kart 8 as " "Woman of Racing Organization" advert alongside Daisy and Peach".

• • I've tried to phrase this per your suggestions. Let me know your thoughts. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• "Birdo appears in the Wii Japan-only video game Captain Rainbow" probably don't need the Japan exclusive information.
  • Removed. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• In the concept and creation section, put years on games for consistency.
  • Wasn't sure if you wanted this just here or not, but I put them in the lead as well for consistency. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• "Birdo additionally has appeared as a playable character several times in the Mario Kart series of racing games,[9][23][24] and has had roles in other Mario franchise games, such as the puzzle video game Wario's Woods (1994), where Birdo assists the game's protagonist, Toad, by giving Toad the bombs he needs to defeat enemies,[25] and in other games, including Super Mario Maker (2015),[26] and RPG game Paper Mario: The Origami King (2020)" Really long run on sentence. Suggest splitting. The second sentence also makes it sound like Birdo does the same thing in Wario's Wood as they do in Origami King and Super Mario Maker. The cite in Super Mario Maker also just says birdo is a "skin" for the character.
  • Rephrased. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• "mostly positive reception" is not backed up. one overview calsl Birdo a fan-favourite, but none of this is an overall reception and the prose following it suggests people seem to be very mixed on Birdo as a whole. I would scrap any "overall" interpretation remark as we currently have nothing to back ths up. (Not to mention we have that source above that lists Birdo on the "Worst" nintendo characters list.)
  • Axed section. Let me know if you want this changed in any way. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• Citations
• "Birdo is a pink, anthropomorphic dinosaur creature who wears a red hairbow and has a round mouth that can fire eggs as projectiles." Article only goes into detail about Birdo shooting eggs from their mouth. While the rest is true, Birdo has shown up in several different colours in Mario 2. Probably can use this better source here.
  • Added the VICE source to back up the pre-existing source. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• You've said you removed the Mario Strikers website source, but it is still there and still dead. Andrzejbanas (talk) 07:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
  • I did remove it. That's an entirely unrelated dead link to a separate Strikers related website. This information is thankfully covered by the VICE source, so I've edited the citation accordingly. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• "Birdo's gender idenity has bene the target of controversy and and speculation". You've expanded on this in the reception section, but this doesn't really make the article match with what the reception section now says about how this was only brought up later and didn't really get anyones attention on the games release.
  • Good catch, missed that sentence. I've reworded this to be more neutral overall, but let me know your thoughts. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• "Birdo's name was mistakenly switched with another Super Mario Bros. 2 enemy, Ostro, both in the manual and in the end credits." Source only says end credits.
  • Reworded. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• "This led to Birdo being interpreted as transgender, which would make her the first transgender video game character." and "Due to this, she is considered to be the first transgender video game character." are not specifically backed up by the source. The source states "As the first trans character, Birdo made her debut 25 years ago in 1988's Super Mario Bros. 2." There are a few issues here: this isn't a serious study of the history of trans characters in video game history, this is a list of trans-friendly characters and not a particularly indepth study. For example, they also state that "birdo would eventually leave her evil ways and help Mario & Luigi", which as we can see from the article, that's just not the case as Birdo goes back and forth between being a villain and not being one. and they state that source for this information is an "ingame description", which is also not accurate, as it is from the games manual. I would remove the "first trans" character bit here, and try to let the reception deal with historical stuff elsewhere.
  • Removed the source that was there (Didn't even notice that one, wow) and replaced it with a TheGamer source that verifies that she is widely seen as the oldest transgender videogame character. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• • As Nintendo has not been clear on this, we should probably give both sides a fresh point of view. the Wire article states "one of two things has happened since the 1988 release of Mario 2. Either Nintendo retconned Birdo’s gender crisis out of existence by turning him into a her, or, if you’re following Reitz’s interpretation, Birdo had a sex change operation. Either way, Birdo’s referred to as a "her" in modern games like Mario Tennis." I don't think we have to assume Birdo has had an operation as thats kind of . . . giving a lot backstory to a character who barely has any." Because of this we shouldn's state things like "Mention of this fact is further not included in most later games featuring the character." as it again implies one interpretation of Birdo is more correct than another.
    • I'd disagree with giving a lot of weight to the Wire source on this. A lot of this is rather unnecessary detail saying the same interpretation that is backed up by nearly every other major source in the article. (Birdo is transgender). I do feel all the statements needed to verify this are already in the article (Especially given TheGamer source I added which specifies Birdo is widely perceived as transgender, thus showing this is non-canon but still a widely popular interpretation) thus covering both perspectives on the subject needed. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
  • For example SoraNews24 says Birdo is "potentially transgender" here,
    • Isn't this already verified by being described as widely identified as transgender? It's not stating that Nintendo has made it official, but rather that this is a popular consensus about the character and her identity. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
  • The Vice article contemplates that Birdo should only be interpreted is strong in going into debates over this. Suggesting Birdo might only be transgender at Mario Tennis, but might also not be as we wouldn't assume Waluigi is even if he's the mixed double partner for Wario. as well as that "Nintendo seems to have decided to identify the character, rather, as gender-fluid, for reasons that have never been explicitly discussed. The confusion, at this point, is not so much Birdo's sexual one, but Nintendo's in having to adapt the character from the Japanese market to the Western one." and "at first glance, Nintendo does not know how to handle this secondary character and tries from time to time to pigeonhole him according to the tastes and morals of the moment." and "this failed attempt at labeling ... makes Birdo even more unintentionally subversive and symbolic."
    • I'm a bit confused about what you'd want me to do with this source here. Could you clarify a bit? This is good analysis, but I'm not exactly sure what you want me to use this for in the subject of the text. Do you want me to use it to describe Birdo as being gender-fluid, or something else? Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

    Sorry I should've have been more clear (was half typing this before I went to bed! :) ) Basically we don't have to use these sources, but I would go through all the ones cited as decent chunk have given various interpretations on what Birdo's situation may be (gender-fluid, queer, trans, etc.) I think if we address that these have all been potential views, we can then present the more overwhelming point of fans and some publications going towards the trans interpretation as a popular one. Specifically, I think Vice article's key point is that the non-disclosed nature of Birdo has made the character a popular and symbolic. I hope I'm coming across on this okay! Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:34, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

    I've dug up a few more sources that discuss this maybe slightly more thoutfully:

    • Where Is the Queerness in Games? Types of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer Content in Digital Games "In some cases it is difficult to define characters as transgender, in large part because the localization process sometimes changes how their genders are described. For example, Birdo in Super Mario Bros. 2 was described in the original instruction manual as thinking “he” was a girl. Most later games simply describe her with feminine pronouns and make no mention of her being transgender. In one game that Birdo appears in, however, a trophy states that she has an “indeterminate gender.” Moreover, in a game released only in Japan called Captain Rainbow, the player must free Birdo after she has been put in jail for “using the wrong bathroom.”" Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:48, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

    Another:

    • Nintendo Switch-ing Genders: Bowsette and the Potentiality of Transgender Video Game Mechanics (oclc.org) ""Transgender scholarship on Nintendo and other mainstream developers in particular tends to highlight the queer perception and reception of various iconic characters, and in doing so these articles almost always emphasize the visual presentation of the icons above all else. Samus Aran of Metroid is trans because the reveal of her gender mimics common coming-out narratives. Sheik of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is non-binary because their body remains visually indeterminate to the player. Super Mario’s own minor villain Birdo is interesting precisely because ofthe “supposedly conflicting masculine and feminine signifiers” employed for them throughout the series. Such analyses and their forebearers are undeniably useful and important in their own right, and as Jennifer Malkowski and Treaandrea M. Russworm correctly point out, “representation is not fully separate from the implicitly hard-core elements of games: it is achieved through and dependent on player and machine actions” just as much as “surface-level images and sounds.” Nonetheless, the compound effect of this strain of critique has been to background the non-representational trans aspects of gaming and relegate discussions of such concepts to independent and avant-garde queer developers." This one may require access to the Wikipedia library, if you don't have access, I can help you with this. Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:00, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  • Because of the above, I feel like there is/was a lot written in the reception of the section about Birdo and trans-representation with the assumption that Birdo is canonically trans, but this is all just interpretation as Nintendo has gone back and forth on this in various games.
    • I've asked further about the above, but I feel your suggestions are unclear on how you want me to handle specific sources, or that your suggestions feel already covered by other pre-existing sources in the article. Could you clarify on how you want this to be written? Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

    I think generally speaking with perhaps some more information on how queer and trans and related characters are represented in video games as a whole might give a clearer picture. Birdo is not a very fleshed out character, so these readings are based on very minor notes. I feel like the academic journal above goes into grander detail and is a good read. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:50, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• The Autostraddle website might have good content, but this list seems...really jokey. Which is fine, but I might not use it for serious critical assessment. Even on using the list of characters by queerness it lists #1 as "you". I feel like this list is humorous and fun, but maybe shouldn't be banked as serious critical interpretation or reasoning.
  • I thought I had removed that source already. Fixed. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• I think you asked above for what I meant by saying the Mario games and where Birdo fits into lore. For an example on how to phrase this, I would suggest looking at the article for Phoenix (1980 video game). I simply state what we do know in basic form "Phoenix was developed in Japan. The original developer is unknown". we can apply something similar to Birdo so people don't feel like they are missing out on the character that just basically hitting the beats that "Birdo is a character in the Super Mario series of video games. These games primarily focus on gameplay and have simple narratives. There is little information regarding Birdo in design and narrative in these games." like I said above. I don't reccomend using this exact phrasing, but just try to get these bits of information of the character out there so the reader doesn't feel like they are missing out on information that they might expect from a character article. Andrzejbanas (talk) 07:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
  • My main concern is that there's no source backing up this information exactly. The way you want me to describe it comes off as OR given the fact there's no citation that can describe this information without the information being extrapolated from a minor mention. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas: I've addressed all of your above suggestions. If you could clarify on some of these points, I'd greatly appreciate it, since I feel some of your current suggestions are a bit unclear and I'd like clarity before implementing them into the article. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I've tried to clarify on some parts you asked about @Pokelego999:. I appreciate you going in for this on the long haul. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:25, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas apologies about the bludgeoning on the point, but I do want to make sure this information is organized correctly. How would you want these references to other interpretations referenced? Would you want it to be in the "concept and creation" section? (For example, "Birdo has also been interpreted by other authors as being an example of a gender-fluid character..."). I just want to make sure I have this right before I make edits.

But yeah, I will say, thank you for being so thorough on the article. It's very much caught a lot of things I'd have missed otherwise, and I'm glad that with your suggestions we've been able to improve Birdo up to an incredibly high-quality standard. I greatly appreciate the lengths you've been going to with this review, so again, thank you for the work and the help you've provided on this article. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:57, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

No worries. I just don't want you to become frustrated. :) My heart isn't set on any way of phrasing the Birdo situation as I haven't really done thorough research, but as those more academic additions I've suggested above the situation gets complicated. I think applying these key factors from the "Switch-ing Genders" journal entry might have these key points to add that summarize the view point well.

• "Transgender scholarship on Nintendo almost always emphasize the visual presentation of the icons above all else."

and

• "it is difficult to define characters as transgender, in large part because the localization process sometimes changes how their genders are described."

Basically, my own issue with using these citations saying Birdo is widely described as trans are on articles that are mostly listicles trying to list trans characters and as we listed above, that comes into problems as we are banking that the Mario 2 manual is "correct" and any other interpretation Nintendo has said since is "wrong". Nintendo has changed who and what their characters are, so I think we should showcase the interpretations of Birdo as trans, but we should also maybe add that other interpretations of Birdo at least being queer or gender fluid be inputted as well after the focus on trans discussion (this is more key in the reception section). But we shouldn't maybe make "trans" the default descriptor of the character in concept section shouldn't be "she is widely considered" to "she has been described as" trans or possibly combining sources, "has been predominantly described as trans, or potentially gender-fluid or queer". I'll let you read the articles above and re-think this as it's obviously a sensitive topic and we shouldn't rush to find a solution. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:19, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas is your suggestion that you wish for me to clarify that Birdo being transgender is an interpretation by others and not Nintendo canon? Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:20, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I mean, Nintendo has been mum on the topic. I apologize if i'm not being coming across as clear. I think we are being clear that Nintendo has applied various genders and pronouns to Birdo. But we should state that the depth of the queerness and the other interpretations as well as it's become a bit less cut and dry that Birdo is trans without question as alternative ideas (as stated above) and the academic articles state that Birdo's trans quality is a bit surface level. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:51, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

The issue of trans vs. cis Birdo is that there's nothing canonical about Birdo's depictions that suggest that Birdo isn't trans. We have games that allude to the idea that Birdo is a trans woman throughout the character's history going back to inception, including Captain Rainbow and Super Smash Bros. Brawl, but without an official source demonstrating why Birdo may not be trans, there's nothing really to be said. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 04:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not implying Birdo is cisgender, and I very much hope I'm not giving that impression to anyone. Many sources suggest a trans reading of the character, but there is no consistency with the games depiction of the character. I have not found any serious source discussing Birdo as cisgender, but I've found several which have given other interpretations or suggested more general terms. I think organizing them and moving them is the best step forward for this article, I just haven't really had the time to re-focus to help suggest what is the best step forward. Andrzejbanas (talk) 08:53, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Some further suggestions. Thanks for your patience in my few days of absense.

• "Since then, Birdo has been a recurring character in various games in the series. Initially, she was depicted as a boss character, but has since been depicted as an ally."

Feel like this is currently phrased in a way that suggests she's an ally as of today. Maybe re-phrase to "Birdo was initially depicted as a boss character, and has since made several cameos and playable appearances, particularly in the Mario Kart series and other Super Mario spin-off games." or something.

• • Reworded. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• "Later releases of Super Mario Bros. 2 removed all mentions of her favored nickname." we haven't mentioned the lead yet. Probably don't need that much weight on this in the lead, as the queer and trans readings are probably more important to get into than in-universe (or in-manual) lore. Andrzejbanas (talk) 02:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Removed. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• "Starting with Mario Tennis (2000), Nintendo has generally avoided her transgender roots" nothing in the article suggests this, with the only mention of Mario Tennis as Birdo being a playable character in it.
  • Reworded for clarity. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• "This has led to Birdo being interpreted as transgender by many, such as with LGBTQ+ groups and several video game publications, which would make her the first transgender video game character." and "Due to this, she is widely considered to be the first transgender character in video games." While the source does say she is widely considered the first, this is sort of a weird statement without expanding on it (not your fault, the listicle here is a bit jumbly). I'm not saying we shouldn't have a phrase like this, but perhaps something a bit better than a listacle per WP:BESTSOURCES. Andrzejbanas (talk) 02:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
  • This one's a bit complicated, because TheGamer is the only one to really bluntly say "Widely considered the first." Many of the other sources cited or what I could find say basically the same thing, but many assume the reader already knows about this or does not specify this with a degree of straightforwardness. This listicle is probably best for the time being in order to verify a rather basic fact most of the articles cited are basing themselves around for their subjects of discussion. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• " Birdo additionally has appeared as a playable character several times in the Mario Kart series of racing games, and has had roles in other Mario franchise games, such as the puzzle video game Wario's Woods (1994), where Birdo assists the game's protagonist, Toad, by giving Toad the bombs he needs to defeat enemies" Bit of a run on sentence. Perhaps maybe adding the first time Birdo was playable if such a source exists, so we can phrase it as "Beginning with [game title here], Birdo became a reoccuring playable character in the Mario Kart series of racing games." Probably don't need the specific details of what they do in Wario's Woods, mention of a cameo in that game and Paper Mario: The Origami King are probably enough followed by the mildly lesser notice as a costume in Super Mario Maker.
  • The Wario's Woods appearance is not really a cameo, as she's one of the two major protagonists in the game. While her role is lesser than Toad, it's certainly more than a cameo. Either way, I've reworded some of the suggested sections. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  • Yeah I'm familiar with the game. not sure its a cameo either as Birdo is just regularly there. Its not a real "narrative" game either so its hard to describe Birdo's role as being an avatar for when Wario isn't readily available. Maybe for the sake of it not being a highly narrative game, refer to Toad as the playable character which might help establish Birdo's position a bit better. Andrzejbanas (talk) 11:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

    Done. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 20:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• We have the vibrator mention once in Appearances, and once in Concept and creation, probably don't need in both, but I think you can decide what fits better in either section.
  • Cut the Conception one since I felt it made more since to go further in-depth in Appearances. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• "In a poll by Official Nintendo Magazine on its users, Birdo tied for eighth-best female character on a Nintendo platform along with Tetra and Kazooie". Most people aren't going to know who Tetra or Kazooie is.
  • Removed. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• "In the book Life on the screen: identity in the age of the Internet", should probably be Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet.
  • Tmk this was how the book's title was formatted when I went to find the ISBN and such. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't wish to commit original research by "correcting" the title if this is how it was formatted when published. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  • Had to check myself, but in MOS:CAPTITLE, "In titles (including subtitles, if any) of English-language works (books, poems, songs, etc.), every word is capitalized except for the definite and indefinite articles, the short coordinating conjunctions, and any short prepositions." So unless it's a foreign language title, probably should follow that. Andrzejbanas (talk) 11:11, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• author Sherry Turkle uses the pattern Birdo uses in boss battles as an example of something that, while complex, sustains the sense of a reassuring, rule-based world." This is kind of interesting, but I'm not sure what we are getting at it with. I'm not even sure if this is "reception" or more of an observation of gameplay. I want to include this, but it feels like it either needs to be exapnded upon or cut. I'd prefer expansion but you show me the content. :) Andrzejbanas (talk) 02:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
  • I literally don't have access to this book. This was here before I made edits to this article to improve its quality, and I felt it was worthwhile to keep since it was a book discussing Birdo in another context. I don't know much more than that. It seems rather minor at a glance, but I don't know if there's more or less there or not.Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

    • The book is viewableable via Google Books. The mention of Birdo is kind of interesting, but overall maybe a bit trivial? Like, Birdo is definitely just an example of a repeated actions to defeat a boss. Perhaps the sources could be used better for something about Birdo's actions as their description of following a pattern to defeat birdo is not really somethign unique to mini-bosses/bosses/games in general. Andrzejbanas (talk) 11:17, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

      It definitely feels a bit trivial. Axed the mention. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 20:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• The citation listicle citing Birdo as an "icon" is perhaps not strong as the follow-up. The listicle simply states "She is arguably the first trans video game character of all time, and as such is a TRUE TRANS ICON." The article righta fter here gives it better specifics: as an "online trans icon status" as they go into detail about this for people unfamiliar with Birdo's popularity (i.e: the image editing of Birdo into trans pride flags, etc.) I think the quote from Queerness in PLay about Birdo being "easilyt he most iconic gender-variant video game villain" is also good to try and apply here, as they go into detail about the character's "rehabilitation into being an ensemble protagonist and a cisgender woman".Andrzejbanas (talk) 02:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Included the TechRadar source (Why is the Autostraddle source back? Thought I removed that.) Not sure what you want me to do with the book source in this context. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• "Stacey Henley of TheGamer stated that Birdo was a highly important character for transgender representation, as she represented the struggles and stereotypes of transgender people in real life. She described how Nintendo seemed "ashamed of Birdo's past" and that despite her complicated history, she served as an example positive transgender representation in video games." there's a lot of points going on this sentence that should probably be split up. I don't think the article mentions that Birdo represents the struggles and stereotypes in the article (article seems to discuss that Birdo origins are as a villain, foolish and humiliating that this man wears a bow and wants a woman's name." I think we need to expand these topics out as this sentence is going into about three points without elaborating on them. Perhaps go into elements about how if a queer-coded character like Birdo is presented as shameful (per the article, the gag is Birdo is to be mocked for wanting to wear a bow and have a girls names, or for the bathroom panic in Captain Wonder). Not sure where the "she served as a positive transgender representation" part comes from. If its there, we could probably expand on it. I would try to apply the academic journals in there over listicles as well. Andrzejbanas (talk) 02:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
  • "However, even if Nintendo is disinterested in this landmark piece of representation, the community can and will always celebrate it, and see in Birdo's journey a metaphor for the community's own representation on screen. Birdo is one of our own, whether Nintendo likes it or not." This reads to me as seeing a positive reception, as the author outright describes Birdo as being a positive focal point in the transgender community despite the fact Nintendo does not acknowledge that aspect of her character.
  • As for your points on expansion, my main concern with expanding some of the information out is the fact that going into detail on every one of the author's points here feels close to undue weight. I felt it best to summarize each point as concisely as possible in order to avoid overwhelming the readers with information in this section of the article. I do feel "as she represented the struggles and stereotypes of transgender people in real life" could do with some slight expansion, but I feel the edits you're suggesting border on undue weight with just how much you want me to add here. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas: Sorry, forgot to ping in my initial edit. Apologies for not replying, as my emails failed to notify me of your response a few days ago. Let me know on some of the points I have responded to. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:22, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas addressed your points above. Ignored the capital issue since the source is gone now either way. Let me know if you have any more thoughts. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 20:10, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Pokelego999:. A few extra points. I apologize for vanishing for nearly a week on the topic.

• "Nintendo has generally avoided her transgender roots in games", I think we have to be careful sentences like this. We are banking on the initial presentation from a manual as a "true" meaning, but as we've seen, Birdo has been changed/reconned etc. several times. While we should acknowledge this interpretation, we shouldn't assume this is the status quo, because in Nintendo games, it seems to jump around whenever the developer feels like it.
• "She additionally appears as a playable character", Birdo is far more often a playable character than a boss. The "Switch-Ing Genders" journal article I linked to above cited Birdo as a "minor villain" so we might want to apply that here.
• You might want to cite the chapter author for the Queerness in Play article. The chapter in question is "Bye, Bye Birdo: Heroic Androgyny and Villainous Gender-Variance in Video Games" by Meghan Blythe Adams.
• I would try to re-tool the the reception section to try and apply the academic articles. While some of the ones we have are strong, we have at least three academic articles we've been ignoring and they give a bit more of a realized thought on Birdo outside listicles. I've linked the other two above, and I believe there's more we can draw from in Adams' chapter. If you have any issues on accessing them, reach out to me. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:04, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• • Just as an example, I think studying Birdo as a queer or trans character is amplified by applying some of history of these characters. For example, Shaw & Friesem note how rare it is to have them ("Representations of explicitly transgender, non-binary, genderqueer, and intersex characters are less common in games than of homosexual and bisexual characters, and most of them appear in more recent games. ") and "In some cases it is difficult to define characters as transgender, in large part because the localization process sometimes changes how their genders are described. For example, Birdo in Super Mario Bros. 2 was described in the original instruction manual as thinking “he” was a girl. Most later games simply describe her with feminine pronouns and make no mention of her being transgender." The entire Queereness in Play book is avilable via the Springer link in the Wikipedia library as well. here Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

    I do feel including some of the history may be valuable, but I again worry about undue weight being put onto this source in conjunction with what is already used in Reception. Let me know what you wish for me to do in regards to this issue, which I have outlined in more depth in my other comment. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:51, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

On a few of your points

-I feel the current wording for Appearances is fine. I've removed "additionally" so it seems less like an exception, but it still describes the basics needed in terms of defining her appearances. I have reworded the lead.

-I'm very opposed to using a lot of the suggested sources. Most of the ones you shared above are very much trivial mentions equaling to very little substance, and many of the points they make are redundant to ones already said in the article. I also do not know why you believe the bulk of the current Reception is "listicles" when the bulk of sources being used are articles or sources focusing entirely on Birdo.

-I am confused on what information you wish for me to expand from Queerness in Play. I worry adding much more from that book may border on undue weight, so I just wish to make sure what sections you want me to add (Given I already covered the "Heroic Androgyny and Villainous Gender-Variance" chapter in Reception already). Do you want me to add content from the page 46ish range, or something else? Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:50, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying it's to replace information, but the article can be expanded upon it. I think it captures view points on how video game characters are perceived as trans, the roots of where a character like Birdo would be developed in Japan, which would enhance the article. Per WP:SOURCETYPES "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources." As per concerns that these are trivial mentions of the character, I feel they help any editor coming across this article from a "DYK?" front page link or a "Random article" link, will need a bit more background on where a character like Birdo comes from, how and why they may be received in this way, and what makes her stand out.

• The articles go into how audiences and scholarship of video game characters as trans is read, which is important as it showcases the depth applied to these characters and they are applied in terms of LGBTQ culture, rather than a technicality. These two combined cover that while Birdo and other Nintendo characters are viewed as trans, its all generally surface level. I think again, this is a good moment to note how the narrative is not important to the world of Super Mario either with this source. There is clearly a lot of discussion about this.
  • "games in the Mario franchise to produce and reproduce normative heterosexuality through its character relations." This should probably be stated to clarify that Birdo's perceived sexuality is not a common element in the Mario series narrative.
  • "Transgender scholarship on Nintendo and other mainstream developers in particular tends to highlight the queer perception and reception of various iconic characters, and in doing so these articles almost always emphasize the visual presentation of the icons above all else."
• "While some characters openly discuss their identity in their respective games or are granted identities by paratextual documents such as instruction manuals, in many cases the real "identity" of the character is largely unknown, left largely to conjecture based on textual and paratextual evidence. As such, “trans*” is used as a unifying umbrella term for these characters, though their identities or gender categories may vary widely."
• I feel that these three quotes here expand on where and why a character like Birdo originates from in terms of popular culture in Japan.
  • "The inclusion of transgender video game characters seems to be a largely Japanese affair, a product of cultural differences around the expression and representation of queer genders and sexualities in the Japanese context. Birdo and Poison, for instance, reflect a then-growing popularity of the new-half (male-to-female transgender sex workers) as a spectacle on television and in print in Japan during “the new-half boom”"
  • "“The one who looks like Yoshi’s girlfriend is really his boyfriend!?” Such exclamation is designed to harken back to the spectacle of the new-half but simultaneously highlights how inclusion within this specific universe must operate through its internal logics of heteronormativity, such that Birdo's inclusion in the universe is negotiated through Yoshi’s perceived male-ness"
  • "Japanese designers echoed the cultural contexts of the new-half boom once again. The media spectacle of the new-half in Japan "reinforce[d] the long-standing assumption that transgender performance was something situated in the entertainment world, not in real life"
• We have various video game media reception towards Birdo, we should apply academic quotes as well, as they will hold a greater weight if anyone call this article into question
• "Birdo from the Super Mario franchise is easily the most iconic gender variant video game villain, in part because of her rehabilitation both into an ensemble protagonist and a cisgender woman."
• More on appearance (as of 2018 anyways), "Birdo has been increasingly feminized in official game art in recent years," and more generally that after Super Mario Bros. 2, "depictions of Birdo have varied widely in terms of the treatment of her gender."

I feel like my last edit as a response a bit lackluster, so lets go into some source checking as well.

• Due to (the writing in the Mario 2 manual), she is widely considered to be the first transgender character in video games.. This single sentence in a listacle seems to be glaringly unture.

Consider the rest of the article, and these sentences

• • "the real "identity" of [Birdo] is largely unknown, left largely to conjecture based on textual and paratextual evidence."
  • Birdo Is The Perfect Metaphor For Trans Representation suggests Birdo only becomes a trans character if we allow ourselves to perceive Birdo this way.
  • [1] " This last sentence [from the manual], which was then deleted in subsequent editions, suggests that Birdo identifies as a character — if not openly transgender — certainly queer."
• "In later printings, mention of Birdo being male was omitted. Mention of this fact is further not included in most later games featuring the character." The Wire article makes no mention of "later printings" of the manual. The source suggests that Birdo's gender was retconned or potentially that Birdo has had a sex change operation. Probably better sources that handle this more delicately. Suggest using the Vice article which I believe states this.
• "Birdo appears in the Wii video game Captain Rainbow, (2008) which delves into Birdo's gender identity." There is no mention of Birdo or anything like this in the IGN review of Captain Rainbow. Might want to use the Wired article. Also, probably don't even need to know its a Wii game.

• Changed. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• "Birdo has been variously referred to as male,[2][11] female,[12][13] and of indeterminate gender[2][14] in her various re-appearances. This should probably follow immediately after the Super Mario Bros 2. stuff is mentioned."

• Shifted around some stuff, but I feel it's mostly fine where it is given the prior sentence discusses how her identity is non-consistent across various appearances. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• [In the cut-scenes for the Japan-only, Satellaview pseudo-sequel of Super Mario USA (Japanese title for the Western version of Super Mario Bros. 2), known as BS Super Mario US, (1996) three "Super Catherines" were voice-acted by Jun Donna, Rika, and Akemi. https://www.vgmuseum.com/end/bsx/a/bsmario.htm] Source is a fansite, which fails WP:RS, regardless, its citing the credits. per WP:WEIGHT, the voice actors here seem trivial without a third-party source.

• Fixed. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• [https://screenrant.com/mario-characters-enemies-smb2-doki-doki-panic/ She made her first appearance in the Family Computer Disk System video game Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic (1987) as a boss opponent. The game was later translated and remade for Western audiences in the form of Super Mario Bros. 2 (1988)." This is hyper specific, while it mentions and includes a list of enemies and characters, it does not specifically lump in Birdo or state this is where Birdo originates. The article describes Birdo as a miniboss, not quite as a boss, and does not state the system "Family Computer Disk System". I'd find a source that states this is the first appearance, and maybe lose the other unsourced bits.

• I've tried clarifying this a bit, but sources are finnicky on her debut since most only refer to Super Mario Bros. 2. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• Birdo went on to become a recurring character in the series following this appearance. Again not quite what the article states, it says Birdo has become a recurring characters in The Origami King, and that Birdo has not shown up in various Mario platform games, but as " she’s become a mainstay of not only party and sports games but also RPGs." Probably can clarify this.

• Ended up axing this since the next paragraph elaborates on it anyways. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• [2] and [3] are used for "Birdo has made frequent appearances in later Mario games, appearing as a boss opponent in games such as Super Mario RPG (1996),[18] and Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga (2003). Neither source mentions Birdo as a boss character.

• I've found a source clarifying RPG, but Superstar Saga is iffier. Would you suggest just re-wording this to instead be something like "She has also appeared in various Mario series RPG games, such as..."? Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• Similarly, the Mario sports and Mario Kart games all state Birdo is a character in the game, and unlockable, I'm not sure if we should add sources that state you can play as Birdo, because not a single one says this. Otherwise, Birdo's presence is basically interpreted as the same as in Wario's Woods. I'm pretty sure a simple cite to the games manuals will clarify this small detail.

• Clarified. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• "Birdo was featured in scrapped concept art for The Super Mario Bros. Movie (2023), indicating that she was planned to appear at some point in development.", while it does state that Birdo was in scrapped concept art, in what context of how Birdo would or would not appear is not clear from the citation. I'd say drop the last part, but honestly, without some context to birdo being in the concept art, this does not say much.

• Clarified. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• "Hottest New Toys" source's archive links to a 404 page.
• Archive.org link to the book " Vintage Games: An Insider Look at the History of Grand Theft Auto, Super Mario, and the Most Influential Games of All Time" is dead so I suggeste removing the URL.

• Removed both of the above links. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• Reception suggests Birdo is an early trans character, while earlier in the article it suggests they are the first. It feels like something that no one has percisely been able to define with more specific outside blanket statements, but the "100 Greatest Video Game Characters book does state "one of the first" on page 23.

• I've changed the description to read "one of the first," using the book as the source, since the point of her being the first is not as widely reported as the fact she was one of. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• "Stacey Henley of TheGamer stated that Birdo was a highly important character for transgender representation, as she represented the struggles and stereotypes of transgender people in real life. She described how Nintendo seemed "ashamed of Birdo's past" and that despite her complicated history, she served as an example positive transgender representation in video games." Not sure how positive this interpretation is in the article as the last part of this sentence states. The article says Birdo "represents all of the bitter ingredients that have gone into the noxious cocktail of representation over the years." While the article says Birdo is important, its probably a stretch to interpret this as a net positive.

• Thank you for the clarification on this. I've tried to re-word this to be more neutral, though I'm a bit iffy on it, so let me know how this can be improved. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• "100 Greatest Video Game Characters" book has its own unique authors credited to the Birdo section "Joshua H. Miller" and "Christopher J. E. Anderson" who should be credited. Page numbers as well.

• Fixed. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• The "100 Greatest Video Game Characters" book also states "gamers and bloggers contintue to debate whether or nor Birdo is male or female, ambigious, or gender transition is canon, " seems to be a curious point to add to the that fans have voted to get Birdo's gender as canon.

• I've included this in the conception section. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Andrzejbanas (talk) 02:28, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas: I believe I've addressed everything. Let me know if anything else needs changing. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:37, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

@Pokelgo999:,

• "Her first appearance was as an enemy in Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic (1987), which was localized for English-language audiences as Super Mario Bros. 2 (1988). Since then, Birdo has been a recurring character in various games in the series. Initially, she was depicted as a boss character, and has since made several cameos and playable appearances, including in the Mario Kart series and other Mario franchise spin-off games." -> "Her first appearance was as a boss character in Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic (1987), which was localized for English-language audiences as Super Mario Bros. 2 (1988). Since then, Birdo has been a recurring character in various Mario franchise games making several cameo and playable appearances."
  • Reworded. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 22:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
• "This has led to Birdo being interpreted as transgender by several video game publications, and as a result has been considered one of the first transgender characters in video games." still no LGTBQ groups, might be easier to just video game publications.
  • Several of the sources reference the LGBTQ+ groups bit, so this is verified. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 22:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

  The issue is they can't even name a single one. So who are they? This requires context. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  • I doubt it's too big a deal given multiple different sources state this. If the sources don't clarify further, then that is not something I feel a point is worth removing over, especially when the point is clear enough as is. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:50, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
• "Antagonist". while the source doesn't say this explicitly, Birdo's role in gameplay in the game is important, but not really in the narrative, so we probably shouldn't describe them by this term.
  • The source states "She was also a villain" which falls under the "antagonist" umbrella. I can probably get a clearer source if need be though. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 22:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

  • Again, as the games aren't really narrative, we have no idea why Birdo does what they do and where they fall into the story. We know she plays as a boss character, so we should stick to game terminology over plot ones. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:03, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

• probably should say Birdo is a boss character w/ a source here as its in the lead.
  • I could not find a source explicitly stating "boss," only "antagonist" or "villain" or something similar. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 22:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure what you are discussing as we had one previously here that states this. "Birdo uses in boss battles as an example of something that, while complex, sustains the sense of a reassuring, rule-based world" Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:05, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

• Lots of use of "appers as" maybe simply "is a playable character"
  • Tried to cut down on some of these. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 22:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
• I think there is a bit too much emphasis of what Birdo does in Wario's Woods. We don't bring it up in the article again, and it's as if we started giving Birdo's gameplay stats in mario kart or sports games. Maybe just summarize these appearances as non-playable character and
  • I disagree, since it is a decent plot role and not just "in-game stats". Additionally, only one sentence focuses on this, which is very little as a whole. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 22:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

  It's not that we focus too much on it, but the plot of Wario's Woods does not even mention Birdo in the manual here or any of the promotion here. As one source mentions earlier, Birdo's appearances after Super Mario 2 are primarily in cameos. Unlike the Captain Rainbow, this is never called back again so it's not relative for a reader to understand it. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

  To back this up, TheGamer source also states that "Narrative has never been all that crucial to Mario", which emphasizes this point. I really think that should be included for anyone unfamiliar with the character. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:13, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

• "despite her complicated history, she served as an important fixture of transgender representation for many" source doesn't quite state this, it says that dispite Nintendo's disinterest in the topic, Birdo
  • Birdo what? Could you clarify this point? Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 22:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, this is what happens when I was rushing! Something like Despite Nintendo's disinterest, Birdo was described as a " landmark piece of representation" with the trans-community can and will always celebrate, and see "Birdo's journey [as] a metaphor for the community's own representation on screen." Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:16, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the reception section needs a bit more focus on topics. It seems to want to be split into two sections of positive overviews of Birdo as trans reception and negative or problematic ones. There seems to be consistent topics on the following: critiquing Nintendo's handling of the topic, the positive attributes to it, and the negative. I think we have a lot of "he said, she said" book narrative that doesn't flow very well.

• • How would you advise re-organizing this section? Admittedly a bit unsure of how you want me to divide the content. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 22:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

• Was going to save this for later but might as well get it out of the way now. The citations inconsistently use different date formats (2024-04-03 and September 14, 2015, and such) Sometimes authors of chapters of books are skipped as well, so I would fill those in. Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Will get to the citations over the coming days. @Andrzejbanas: Let me know on the above as to what should be done. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 22:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Generally as stated above, try to organize the topics as if it were a review of a game. When discussing Birdo as a trans character, what topics are continuously brought up? What I have found from reading the article is

• criticism of Nintendo handling Birdo's gender identity
• Positive and negative reception towards how Birdo's trans-characeristics are displayed

Take a look at the reception section of an article like Ada Wong if you see what I mean. I'm not sure how else I can explain it, but currently, it has good content, it just needs better structure to keep the topic on hand for each discussion point. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:20, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Tried re-organizing this a bit, but admittedly unsure what else I should shift around. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:50, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzebjanas: still need to do some source re-organizing but let me know on the above points. Did the rest of your suggestions to the best of my ability. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 23:50, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience. I've gone ahead and made some copy-edits that I didn't want to prat upon and cleaned up the citations. The only thing missing @Pokelego999: is a page number for the Vintage Games book. Otherwise, I think Birdo is ready for the green circle.Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:42, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas I've removed the source since it's not really saying much, as the necessary information is already covered by the Vice source, among others. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 12:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe that works. Well done. I believe things have been addressed. Thanks for your patience. Pass! Andrzejbanas (talk) 17:25, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

One of the longest GA review in video games lol 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 22:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC)