Talk:Beamter

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The average teacher salary in the US is in the mid-$40K range. For example $46,597 [1] or $44,400 [2] or $47,750 [3]. So the line "US-teachers are quite badly-paid, at least primary school teachers with an average of $20,000" is not in harmony with reality.

Translation into EnglishEdit

this article is a translation from the German version.(Not my fault) Wandalstouring 22:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

PronounciationEdit

The pronounciation should be in IPA (which I am not capable of writing, or I would do it myself) -- Free-zombie 10:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Many mistakes and POV against 'Lehrer' in GermanyEdit

For example: Regarding the "Quantitive Salary Example Oberstudienrat"

"Studienzuschlag" 184,53 € and "Pauschale 245,91 €" are completely unknown, "German officials get 13.5 salaries each year (winter: 1vH; summer: 0,5vH) -> are wrong too, insofar the final sum 5 000 € per month is incorrect. --beartd_άρχης 16:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC) And you forgot then contributions to private medical insurance for five persons abouth ~ 800-850 EUR ! A very strong mistake, I've correct this now.--beartd_άρχης 11:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

  • "A popular example of officialdom: German teachers" is POV and has nothing to do with an Encyclopedia and is a falsification of the actual and economics facts.

You ignore facts (I hope not grossly negligent),

- at first, that not all teachers are OStR'e,

- at second, please compare the income of a Kriminalobermeister (A8) or Kriminalkommissar/Kriminaloberkommissar (A9/A10) with those of police dedectives in the United States (I've read an incom regarding to dedectives in the U.S. abouth 60.000-85.000 and more) and

- at third, what for an income has an american nurse f.e. in the U.S. forces (First Lieutenant up to Major and higher) and a german nurse as an employee in the public service in Germany? Has the nurse in the U.S. a bachelor or a master degree?

--beartd_άρχης 10:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)--beartd_άρχης 17:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

TODAY FOUND: An american public prosecutor (or "assistant district attorney" ?) earns ~ 160.000,00, a german one (Staatanwalt) has BesGr. R 1. You have calculate the income of a 'Oberstudienrat'. Now you can calculate surely a 'Staatsanwalt'-income too very good and compare him whith an american one: There is a very great difference. --beartd_άρχης 19:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)--beartd_άρχης 20:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Privatizations and reductions of established posts reduced the number of civil servants: Since 1991 the number of civil servants in the public service in Germany could be much reduced by 1.4 millions. At a time in the past abouth 5.3 millions now 3.9 millions servants remained. This means, that the reunited Germany has today less civil servants than the old Federal Republic of Germany before (January 2007 is up to speed).--beartd_άρχης 14:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC) The description abouth reductions of established posts affect the numbers of Lehrer (Beamte) too, so that in Germany the average age of the teachers is very high. Especially it originates from the high denatality in Germany. Only 5% of them reache regurlarly the pensionable age (-> 67) in in good health, all the other have to retire early and have to accept this with a loss regarding to her retirement pension. --beartd_άρχης 14:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi User 77.132.36.16: The "Quantitive Salary Example Oberstudienrat" is still wrong. This Beamter pay brutto=nette ~850 EUR for himself, his wife and each of his three children without a subsidy to this payment (private medical insurance on the part of the state! I have correct this again. kind regards--Beartd_άρχης 16:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi User 77.132.36.16: nicht die deutschen Beamten haben die höchsten Besoldungen, sondern die in den Behörden der EU, schon davon gehört? Sie verdienen das zwei- bis dreifache und darüber diskutiert keiner und du scheinst es nicht einmal zu wissen. Hinsichtlich der von dir so benannten Dienstkürzel habe ich sehr starke Bedenken, ob dies in eine Enzyklopädie etwas in dieser Ausführlichkeit zu suchen hat. Im übrigen ist deine Auffassung falsch, dass auf offiziellen Dokumenten Abkürzungen usus sind. In allen 17 Beamtengesetzen des Bundes und der Länder ist ausdrücklich normiert, dass der Beamte innerhalb und außerhalb des Dienstes in der Ausübung seines Amtes seine Amtsbezeichnung zu führen hat und die Gesetzgeber haben hier keine "Kürzel" gemeint. Sie finden lediglich innerhalb der Behörde in organisatorischen Belangen Anwendung (Telefonverzeichnis, Organigramme etc.) In den Behörden mit Publikumsverkehr stehen die vollen Amtsbezeichnungen (siehe BBG, LBG'e) unter dem Namen des betreffenden Bearbeiters. --Beartd_άρχης 01:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The information in the part on teachers still contains a lot of wrong information. I don't understand the salary calculation. There are also "Fachlehrer" in Berufsschulen and other schools, who are only Besoldungsstufe A9. In general the salary should also be shown in Euro since the value in USD is changing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.223.185.36 (talk) 02:07, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

"Hergebrachte Grundsätze des Berufsbeamtentums"Edit

What about that? I think this important section is missing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.178.187.61 (talk) 18:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Really? In german language? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.12.206.12 (talk) 17:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

It is an important phrase that, yes, does merit German mentioning (and a translation of course). The thing is that the hergebrachten Grundsätze des Berufsbeamtentums, "traded-down principles of professional officialdom", are fixed unchangeable in the Constitution and are thus, in the words of a Süddeutsche Zeitung editorial, more safe than a nuclear power plant. However, you'd probably have to have a lawyer to write a section on this.--91.34.229.104 (talk) 09:46, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Some inconsistenciesEdit

As of today EU-citizens can become Beamte as well as native Germans (except in some special branches, like Armed Forces Administration and Intelligence Service (BND, BfV). (see: § 7 BBG (Federal Civil Service Code))

Tearchers earn not that much - in the highest position, headmaster of a Gymnasium, they earn up to (after at least 23 years of service) 6,117.60€ per month gross salary - that is about 100,000$. Additionally even elementary school teachers are required to gain a Master's degree. Working as school teacher with just a Bachelor (even with a B.Ed.) is not possible in Germany. It should however be noted, that traditional teacher education in Germany is not based on Bachelor/Master degrees that are quite new in this field and not yet common (so called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process). So far students of teacher courses had to undergo a state examination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsexamen) at the end of their education, without gaining an academic degree. However this examination is regarded as equivalent to a Master qualification.

The section "Areas in which Beamte work" lists soldiers as Beamte. This is not correct, soldiers simply are soldiers and nothing else. There are similarities that are described in a below section, but still they are not Beamte. --83.135.194.38 (talk) 23:56, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

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