Talk:BP Service Association in Canada

NPOV

The article is nearly completely based on B-PSAFC sources and lasts heavily on the viewpoint of that organization. Some examples:

• "modernization of the Scout method within WOSM and SC" - in WOSM's and SC's view some elements of the program were modernized but not the method on which these programs are based
• "The history of the association dates back to the foundations of Scouting in the UK in 1908." - Some lines earlier it is stated that the organization was founded in 1996. How can the org date back to 1908 which is nearly 90 years earlier? Wasn't there a secession of a few units from SC, where the first leaders got their warrants? Or was the org started out of the blue in 1996 but dates back to 1908?

The article needs also some more third party sources on the history and the views of the org. --jergen (talk) 08:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Jergen, while not especially heavily referenced this article already has more third-party sources than the majority of WOSM/WAGGS articles, many of which just refer back to the parent body. As you don't seem to feel that these need addressing please could you establish whether or not your editing is NPOV as, once again, there appears a bias in your attitude, whether concsiously or not, against articles on "independent" Scouting? As you are an established editor who contribues a lot to Wikipedia, please accept that this is a genuine comment, not a personal attack.

The reasons for the formation of the B-PSAFC will, obviously, rely on their own sources. Even in very established article on the exceptionally established 99 year old The Scout Association over 50% (26 out of 41) of the sources are of direct TSA origin. On this article 6 of the 9 references are third-party, which seems to be a fair start for a considerably smaller and more recently-formed association.

There is very little new text in this article. Most has been on other pages on Wikipedia for a number of years without any challenge of being POV. Those comments that could be considered "controversial", in that they go against a WOSM member association's POV, are backed by third-party sourcing. Could it be improved? Probably. Almost every article on Wikipedia could be.

• The actual statement for your first concern of "...modernization of the Scout method within..." is now "...perceived modernization of the Scout method by..." This is a wholly different statement to that you base your accusation of POV on. Was the wording in the article as you imply it could indeed be seen as POV, but that is now not the case. As you made this edit, which I consider to be an improvement on the original wording, I cannot see why you now contest it as POV.
• No NSA, as far as I am aware, dates to 1907 (which we celebrated as the starting date for Scouting) or the 1908 publication of SFB. All of them, however, originate from that publication as that was when Scouting was established as a Movement - a Movement that all Scouts are part of. I believe that this is commonly referred to as a shared heritage. I can see how the statement could cause come confusion, though, so I will change the word "history" to "roots" as this seems to be a better choice of phrasing used on other articles.

As I have always ensured with articles I create or edit, when additional third-party articles are found they will be added. As this article has only just been created it is still a work in progress. Your input in improving it is welcome. DiverScout (talk) 10:53, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

It is not helpful to accuse any editor of an inherent bias, especially if this accusation is wrong. Most articles on the so called "independent Scouting organizations" have notability issues due to the organizations' sizes. This is maybe also the case here (13 local groups is something about 600 members nationwide), but the advertising style of the article and its bias against SC and WOSM is more important.

Let's have a closer look on this:

• "perceived" was my addition to reduce the inherent POV introduced by DiverScout (or any other original author)
• The organization's webpage on its history [1] gives the "Advance Party Report" of The Scout Association in 1966 and the idea of Traditional Scouting in Canada as main aspects in the foundation of the federation. The terms modernization or "Scout method" are not mentioned at all.
• Four of the nine references go back to the orgs website, a fifth one (scoutdocs.ca) does neither give the date nor the place the org was founded, a sixth one (scouting milestones) is also misleading, since it does not source the B-PSAFC's view but only the history.
• There are no sources within the "views" section; btw a strangely named section. Some of the content is on the program, some on the structures and some on values or policies. This should be split up.

In the whole, the articles reads like an advertisement, stating that the B-PSAFC is the only Canadian organization keeping up the original spirit of the Scout movement. -jergen (talk) 13:41, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I went out of my way to state that I did not think that it was necessarily a deliberate policy of yours. I am in my rights, however, to let you know when I think you're acting inappropriately. It might not be nice, but neither is dealing with what comes across to me as your repeated bullying every time a non-WOSM article is added.

If association size is all that matters, then the Maltese Scout Association (and many others) ought to also have their pages abolished or merged. Of course that is a nonsense argument, as has been illustrated each time you have employed it. There are no minimum size requirements set by Wikipedia to establish notability. Not the best argument, but an instant reply, might be that if the B-PSAFC is not notable, why have Scouts Canada worked so hard to bury it?

The text needs work, and is the original text that has been used on Wikipedia for a number of years, and you are just as welcome to amend phrases as any other editor. Given half a chance I'd probably have amended it myself by now and I will be doing so once I have finished replying to your comments. We're not going to get on, but let's just get the job done.

Let's try again:

• "perceived" was your addition and I have already praised it. I questioned why you then use the same sentence to cite POV when it has been amended. Other sections need some attention. Fine.
• An example of what the B-PSAFC see as "breaking with tradition" is referenced to a Canadian news service. If CBC are controlled by B-PSAFC then I apologise for assuming that they were a reputable third-party source. Please note that the content in this section was recovered to this page, via the B-PSA one, from the Scouts Canada article, where I then reduced the original content in scope. It seemed to have been accepted well-enough on that page, other than by a few SC members, for a number of years and drew no objections on the B-PSA page.
• The percentage still stands well against other articles, where several seem to have been accepted as fine having just one reference (usually just a WOSM/WAGGS listing), while others are solely referenced from within WOSM. How am I supposed to agree that you are employing a level playing field when this evident fact is on Wikipedia in black and white?
• Views is an odd title, and an inherited one that I'm not too keen on. That section could happily be split and probably will be. Unsourced? You mean other than the 6 or so inline citations included in that section? DiverScout (talk) 16:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

This entire discussion is utterly pointless, since there is no BPSA Federation in Canada. It was, at one point in time, the fantasy of one single person who had put up all sorts of web sites in the vain hope that if he repeats the notion enough times, it will eventually become reality. It hasn't, and at last report that person is no longer active in the Scouting Movement.

All references to the alleged BPSA Federation of Canada should be deleted from WikiPedia as it does not exist and never has existed. 50.98.91.21 (talk) 22:37, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

There are further gross factual errors, for example the claim that TEAC/BPSC is a member of WFIS. That is an obsolete claim.

Interesting that there was a WFIS international held by them recently, then. Amazing that WFIS list them as members too. That is some conspiracy theory. Maybe, based on your ideas, Canada is also imaginary - having been made up by the owner of a farm in the north of the USA? Or maybe you're just telling a few porkies... :) DiverScout (talk) 07:55, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what is this "WFIS International" and by whom it was supposed to have been held or how recently. Since you clearly have no idea about the traditional Scouting Movement in Canada, all of your alleged information is second hand and from rather dubious or obsolete sources. TEAC /BPSC was at one time a member of WFIS, but has since (2010 or 2011) ceased to be a member. If WFIS does not update their website in a timely fashion, that changes nothing of facts. The ScoutDocs references have long since been updated.

There is not and never had been "BPSA Federation of Canada". I know that for a fact, since I was one of the people to defeat that motion. There are a number of Traditional Scouting organizations in Canada that use the "BPSA" name. None of them are in any way affiliated or associated with BPSA in the UK or with each other. (Nor is TEAC/BPSC affiliated with BPSA, despite the claims on their website. A simple inquiry to BPSA in the UK will confirm that.)

The existence of a website does not necessarily verify the veracity of the information posted there. I can set up an "Earth is Flat" website, but I doubt it would have the desired effect on the rotundness of the Earth.

Some of these Canadian BPSA organizations are members of WFIS in their own right, some are not members yet (Jan 2012). Of all the Canadian BPSA organizations, only the Baden Powell Service Association of British Columbia is actually incorporated and registered as a society. There is no legal requirement for a civic or non-profit association in Canada to be registered as a legal entity.

It is clear that this entire article and its edits have been composed from secondary and indirect information without any attempt having been made to contact the the people who were actually involved in the organization to verify the misinformation posted. The childish sarcasm of DiverScout is entirely based on his ignorance of the issue and absolutely uncalled for. If any of the editors want to get correct information, you can contact me at execten@yahoo.ca — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.6.36.4 (talk) 22:23, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Dear font of all wisdom, thank you for descending upon Wikipedia and gracing us with your impecable vision. Sarcastic? Yes when deserved. Interesting that you post all this. I wonder how our UK Scouts attended a WFIS international in Canada? Maybe we all imagined it? Perhaps the attendees and the creators of these web sites are all victims of some amazing hallucination - or maybe you are simply incorrect or, dare I suuggest it, one of those with problems about independent Scouting? Wikipedia reports on external sources, so whilst I would thank you for your offer of personal views, these are not permitted as source material. DiverScout (talk) 22:43, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Name and WFIS affilliation

I'm quite confused how the organization is named and how it's affiliation to the WFIS is organized.

Name

• The article gives "B-PSA Federation of Canada" and explains this in the weblink section with "Baden-Powell Service Association Federation of Canada".
• The official website [2] does not present any nationwide name; it says "BPSA Traditional Scouting".
• The Canada Revenue Agency [3] shows the revoked entry of "BPSA Canada" (registration number: 886247824RR0001) and the entry "The B P Service Association" in British Columbia (registration number: 866659436RR0001(, but I could not find any entries on Ontario, Quebec or New Brunswick or on the federation.
• The website of WFIS North America [4] gives "Canadian Federation of Independent Scouts" as name of an federation comprising of BPSA British Columbia, BPSA New Brunswick, BPSA Ontario, and the Canadian Independent Scouting Association.
• Scoutdocs [5] gives "BPSA Federation of Canada" comprising of BPSA British Columbia, BPSA New Brunswick, BPSA Ontario, and BPSA Quebec.
• The website of the "Traditional Explorers Association, Council of Ontario Inc." [6], also affiliated to the British BPSA and to the WFIS, gives the acrony "BPSC Canada" for an all Canadian organization. Is there any connection?

Affiliation

• How is the affiliation of the councils to both BPSA UK and WFIS organized - direct or via the federation?
• If via a federation, what is the name of this federation? We have differing sources (see above)?

It would be good if somebody with some more insight could clarify these matters. --jergen (talk) 10:22, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The BP Service Association title was registered by the BPSABC. It seems that the title of the overall Federation may have changed since the old Geocities site (which a lot of the information on this article was developed from). With the name issues in Canada, and the addition of a non-B-PSA association to the Federation, the situation has changed a few times since the association/federation formed. Unless someone knows better I'd be happy with moving the article to the title used on the WFIS North America site, as that seems most likely to be accurate.

The BPSA associations have been granted a right to wear the uniform and insignia of the B-PSA. This is listed on one or two of the Canadian sites. I'll be adding references back to those once I've finished sorting out the text (which I am trying to find in between the tags that have been added all over the article). This will take a bit of time as I have a few real-life commitments that sometimes take priority over Wikipedia. :) DiverScout (talk) 16:01, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Having kept looking, the BPSC Canada title appears to have been adopted in 2006 http://www.traditionalexplorers.on.ca/index.php, "The Traditional Explorers Association, Council of Ontario Inc. operates as BPSC Ontario (until 2006 we were known as BPSA Ontario)". This site has a 2009 date on it. The extant BPSA Ontario site is dated 2000-2008, but has been rebuilt after the Geocities closure along with the other BPSA sites so appears consecutive.

I cannot find any active web site for the "Canadian Independent Scouting Association", as they seem to have also used Geocities.

I have found a secondary source showing Canadian Federation of Independent Scouting (sic) to be the accepted title for the federation.

I still think that the best option is to use the WFIS titles and update as and when WFIS do so. The article will need to be worked on a bit in order to reflect the status of the federation, and I will see how this can be accomplished after New Year's Day (unless anyone else feel inclined to have a go).

I will also email the BPSC to try to get some clarification of which sources are accurate. I realise that this constitutes primary research but it seems the best way to know which sources to look towards, and I think that getting the facts right is the most important issue here. DiverScout (talk) 14:02, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I have vague memories of having read something about a scission of BPSA Ontario some years ago, but I don't have any sources on this. Actually, I think that B-PSA Ontario [7] and BPSC/TEAC [8] are different organizations with nearly the same name: they have differing badges and the group lists differ widely - but I'm not sure on this. --jergen (talk) 19:34, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I've had a reply, which I enclose for information. I think that there is too much information to merge back into other pages so it seems that a new title (Baden-Powell Scouting in Canada, or perhaps better WFIS Scouting in Canada?) is probably needed for this page, with sections for the related associations? Hopefully the WFIS site will be updated to reflect this soon. The Scouting and Guiding in Canada entry on the WFIS associations looks like it will also need amending.

All we need now are some web sources that back the situation on the ground! I can confirm that the UK B-PSA work with the BPSC as there was a joint event that my Group were hoping to attend this year.

> The BPSA Federation in Canada does not really exist. Two years ago BPSA

> British Columbia trademarked the BPSA name and therefore we were were no

> longer able to use it. BPSA Federation itself now only consists of BPSA

> BC as well as a few groups in Ontario and one in New Brunswick. The CISA

> was a member of the Federation and now operates separately.

>

> Our Association, which is the largest traditional scouting organization

> in Canada was formerly known as BPSA Ontario. When BC trademarked the

> name we were forced to change ours. We are incorporated under the laws

> of Ontario as Traditional Explorers Association, Council of Ontario Inc.

> However we operate as BPSC Canada. We have more than 400 members in four

> provinces (BPSC Manitoba, BPSC Ontario, BPSC Quebec, BPSC Nova Scotia).

> We are also currently an independent member of WFIS and are affiliated

> and work closely with our friends in BPSA UK.

>

> Gord Collins

>

> Chief Commissioner

> BPSC Canada / BPSC Ontario

> Traditional Explorers Association, Council of Ontario Inc.

> www.traditionalscouting.ca

Sorting this out is certainly proving a lot more interesting than I originally thought it would! DiverScout (talk) 22:03, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

And it's not getting easier ;-) An older website of Baden-Powell Scouting in Canada was http://www.bpscouts.ca/; it is still accessible via internet archive: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.bpscouts.ca/. According to this source, the BC and Ontario councils did leave the parent organization in early 2002 [9]. The remaining BPSA Alberta Council had the following sections: Polar Bears, Timber Wolves, B-P Woodsman, Sr. B-P Woodsman [10]. Unfortunately, there are no listings of groups on the website. The website was updated in summer 2003 and did expire in 2006. --jergen (talk) 17:41, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

It's all very challenging. I'm trying to "gather straws" to rewrite this into a more all-inclusive article, but it is taking time. A lot of time. I'm glad it's been started, though, as otherwise we'd have had the wrong information on the B-PSA Wikipedia entry for a lot longer. I'm thinking of a title change to Baden-Powell Scouting in Canada, as that seems to be the easiest title to cover the associations directly related to the UK association. If it ends up looking a bit weak I'll shunt it into Scouting and Guiding in Canada - but I only want to do this as a last resort as I don't want to swamp other content. DiverScout (talk) 12:50, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

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2017 Updates

With no comments or work having been done on the page in about five years I have decided to take up the gauntlet. There is no all encompassing BPSA federation and I have performed a page move to update the name accordingly. I have written the narrative taking this into account and have tried to emphasize that the BPSA in Canada is a collection of independent associations. If you have questions or would like to discuss ways to improve the page please contact me at bpsascouter@gmail.com. Imasham (talk) 21:48, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

2018 Copyright Issues

I have removed the source to the file that appears to be causing the copyright issue. As the copyright holder to the new reference material I am permitting re-use under the Creative Commons license. Please let me know if there is anything else that needs to be done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imasham (talk • contribs) 22:44, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

@Imasham: you're going about this the wrong way. You'll either need to remove the content in this article which has been copied from the copyright material (the PDF), or you need to modify the PDF that the content is based on to include a note at the bottom of it per WP:DONATETEXT. However a new issue emerges because you've just declared a conflict of interest. Writing a Wikipedia article about an organisation that you are intimately involved in is against the guidelines of Wikipedia. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 04:36, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

@Imasham and Curb Safe Charmer:

The copyvio as well as the COI are quite obvious. All this content on rank requirements is not appropriate for Wikipedia (see WP:NOTHOWTO). The last version without those extensive additions was that of 03:04, 13. Jul. 2017. I'd propose to revert the article to that point and to delete all newer versions. --jergen (talk) 09:06, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

• I just took the article way back to before Imasham started editing it. --evrik ^(talk) 17:51, 20 April 2018 (UTC)