Talk:BDC Aero Puma

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For information on how this article was moved and moved back, please see Talk:BDC Aero Industrie before moving it again. - Ahunt (talk) 23:55, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Edit requests

For the aircraft this is the corrected information

Correction #1 The title BDC Aero Puma does not exist, BDC Aero Industrie Inc. is a company Puma is one of the product so the title should be Puma Aircraft References are on the Government of Canada

Correction #2 Under the title The Puma Aircraft is a Canadian aircraft, originally designed and named Pluto by the Italian designer Antonio Bortolanza in the mid-1980s designed according to the European standard under ultralight regulation to meet the max takeoff weight of 990lbs. In 2008 BDC Aero Industrie Inc. redesign the aircraft size, structure, and make a systematic production procedure with quality control system to fit the North American market requirements for Canada and USA.Although the airplane resemble the Italian made, the new PUMA, has a complete new structure, components, interior, and it is engineered to have a max gross weight of 1320 lbs and 1420 lbs on floats. The Puma is equipped with Rotax 912 UL, 912ULS, 912iS, 914UL engines. The aircraft is only sold as factory build under three different categories: Light Sport Aircraft (U.S.A only) VFR day/night Experimental (U.S.A only) VFR day/night, IFR Limited Class (Canada and other countries) VFR day/night, IFR Advanced UltraLight (Canada) VFR day only At the moment BDC Aero Industrie do not offer home build amateur construction References are on the website, Transport Canada and widola

Correction#3 Design and development The Puma was originally called Pluto by Bortolanza when he first designed it in the mid-1980s as an Ultralight with 990lbs max takeoff weight. Later it was renamed as the Drakken (Swedish for "dragon"). In 2008 BDC Aero Industrie redesign the aircraft according to the LAMAC regulation to fit the Advanced Ultralight Regulation at 1230lbs max takeoff weight. In 2012 BDC Aero Industrie complete the first Limited Class Category with Transport Canada where the size, structure, production procedure, and quality control were implemented to meet the standards for a max takeoff weight of 1320lbs on wheels and 1420lbs on floats. Although the airplane resemble the Italian made, the new PUMA, it has a total new structure, components and interior, and it is engineer to have a max gross weight of 1320lbs and 1420lbs on floats, as well as new engines power and configuration. Today the Puma comes with Rotax 912 UL, 912ULS, 912iS, 914UL all of them mounted on a dyno focal engine mount and no longer bed engine mount. The aircraft is made with an aluminum wing and composite fuselage. Its 28 ft (8.5 m) span wing has an area of 124 sq ft (11.5 m2) and flaps.The Puma is approved by Transport Canada as an Advanced Ultralight and Limited Class, but, as of September 2015, does not appear on the Federal Aviation Administration light-sport aircraft list References are on the website, transport canada, FAA, and widola

Correction #4 Operational history In September 2015 there total 6 Pumas made, were five Pumas registered with Transport Canada, four Advanced Ultralight, one Limited Class, and one LSA all built by BDC between 2010 and 2013. There is one Puma LSA registered in the United States with the Federal Aviation Administration in 2013 References are on Transport Canada

Correction #5 Specifications (BDC Puma) should be change to Specification Puma Aircraft General characteristics Crew: one Capacity: one passenger Length: 20.8 ft (6.3 m) Wingspan: 28 ft 0 in (8.53 m) Wing area: 124 sq ft (11.5 m2) Airfoil: Modified NACA 4412 Empty weight: 662 lb (300 kg) Gross weight: 1,232 lb (559 kg) Fuel capacity: 24 U.S. gallons (91 L; 20 imp gal) Powerplant: 1 × Rotax 912UL four cylinder, liquid and air-cooled, four stroke aircraft engine, 80 hp (60 kW) Propellers: 2-bladed, 5 ft 9 in (1.76 m) diameter Performance Maximum speed: 138 mph; 222 km/h (120 kn) at sea level Cruising speed: 132 mph; 213 km/h (115 kn) Stall speed: 43 mph; 69 km/h (37 kn) @max gross weight and full flap Never exceed speed: 161 mph; 259 km/h (140 kn) Range: 575 mi; 926 km (500 nmi) Service ceiling: 12,000 ft (3,658 m) G limits: +4g/-2g Maximum glide ratio: 11.1 Rate of climb: 900 ft/min (4.6 m/s) Rate of sink: 350 ft/min (1.8 m/s) Wing loading: 9.9 lb/sq ft (48 kg/m2) Avionics Analog and digital

References are on the website

If you need a reference for all this just ask I will give you the right links I already did the research but I don't know how to put it online. I'm just reading this wikipedia article and it bother me when people put mis information on it

Let me know if you need anything else I will be glad to contribute. BAI73 (talk) 01:08, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Regarding correction #1: Aircraft type articles are named in accordance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (aircraft) and this is "manufacturer-designation-name". Hence the aircraft is the BDC Aero Puma, and not "Puma Aircraft". For example the Boeing 747 is called "Boeing 747" and not 747 Aircraft.

Regarding correction #2: I have updated this since the company website now indicates that kits are no longer available. WIDOLA and archive.org refs shows these were once available, so I have updated those refs. The rest of the info is already there. - Ahunt (talk) 01:39, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Regarding correction #3: Most of this is in there already, but the refs I can find, including the company website don't support this level of detail about the structure and features. Unless you can supply actual links to refs I can't go beyond what is already in the article. I have added the engines available from the specs page on the company website. - Ahunt (talk) 01:46, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Regarding correction #4: I have explained which categories the four Canadian aircraft built by BDC are in from the TC ref. - Ahunt (talk) 01:50, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Regarding correction #5: I have gone though the company specs and updated the specs for the specified version.

I'll just fix the refs and I am done. - Ahunt (talk) 01:56, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

There is no reference for this statement: he Puma's current manufacturer, BDC, states "many flying schools have adopted the PUMA as their training plane".[3] Is not on the website but if you want to know if any fligth school is using it here there is one in Canada: http://www.ecoleavitas.ca/fr BAI73 (talk) 02:40, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I see you have removed that from the web page, but it is still archived here and says "Many flying schools have adopted the PUMA as their training plane thanks to its modern and safe flying characteristics." But rather than update the ref, since it obviously was an error on the company webpage in the first place, since one school is not "many", I'll just remove that from the article. - Ahunt (talk) 14:03, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

It is non sense to reference old website, this is the reason why we update info and you should do it too. The bottom line is that it is a trainer, and in Italy was used in many flight school but useless statement since the airplane is ot the same. Also you should not make any company statement because you are not my advertiser. Another error is in the Manufacture top right corner, the Manufacturer is BDC Aero industrie and not Bortolanza which is a designer that design the Pluto not the Puma and is no longer in business. Whatever he did was in Italy and not in Canada. The designer of the Puma which is a Canadian product is BDC Aero Industrie, we have internal designers that works on modification an updates and they are done in a teamwork like any other aircraft manufacturer. Thank you for the work done so farBAI73 (talk) 15:40, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles cover the complete history of the aircraft, not just the current production. Bortolanza is listed as one manufacturer because the WDLA source says he built these aircraft in Italy. BDC is listed as another manufacturer as you are building them in Canada. The claim "Many flying schools have adopted the PUMA as their training plane thanks to its modern and safe flying characteristics," was a quote taken directly from your website at the time when it said that. Wikipedia often uses quotes to support articles, see Wikipedia:Quotations. It seems that the quote from your website was in error and I have now removed it. Keep in mind that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we are not here to be a marketing tool for your company. - Ahunt (talk) 15:56, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I have added a sourced variants section in an attempt to more clearly explain the history and the evolution of the design. - Ahunt (talk) 17:43, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

MAnufacture and Designer is BDC Aero Industrie not Bortolanza. Bortolanza worked for Aeroplast up to year 2000 and Design the Pluto the Puma comes from the original design but was heavily modified structurally as you can see on my website picture the old puma is very different than the one new one, and if you want details I can make it to you in a list, that is the reason is called Puma otherwise it will be called Pluto. Correct please, people are confused.BAI73 (talk) 18:40, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

In the variant you have to correct also, Aeroplast Pluto, Aeroplast Draken, Not Bortolanza, Bortlanza was the designer but airplane are made by Manufacturer not by designer.BAI73 (talk) 19:00, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

That is why the article text says, "The aircraft was redesigned by BDC Aero Industrie". I can add some words about structure and higher gross weights.

Do you have a ref for the Pluto and Drakken production by Aeroplast? The WDLA doesn't mention that company at all, but it does mention Bortolanza. By default we name the design for the manufacturer, unless one can't be identified, then we use the designer's name. It is worth noting that Transport Canada lists one Puma aircraft, C-IPUM as "Manufacturer: BORTOLANZA ANTONIO", made in Italy in 2007. TC doesn't mention Aeroplast, but it does show that at least one Puma was manufactured in Italy by Bortolanza. - Ahunt (talk) 19:43, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

To add further evidence, the TC list of AULAs also indicates that Bortolanza manufactured Pumas, as does BDC, too, of course. In both cases that document says to contact "Otreb Technologies Inc." Any idea who they are? - Ahunt (talk) 20:51, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Is own by BDC Aero Industrie but no longer active, I sent the correction today to Transport Canada will update you soon. Thank youBAI73 (talk) 22:18, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Okay thanks, I kind of thought that it might be a holding company or similar. It doesn't need a mention in the article. - Ahunt (talk) 03:20, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

One thing that would really help the article is if we had a photo of the Puma. It would be ideal to have at least one photo of the whole aircraft to show what it looks like overall and one of the interior or instrument panel. If you have photos you would like to donate under a free licence you can upload them to Wiki Commons here. If you do that, you can post the photos' URLs here and I can place them in the article. - Ahunt (talk) 13:17, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm uploading the picture of the Puma Limited and interior, also I received an email form Wikipedia that says the following:

"<Manufacturer> <Aircraft>" is the preferred naming convention for aircraft articles. We have <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-3> and <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747>, for instance.

You can read the naming guideline located at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(aircraft)>

Yours sincerely, Tim Boehde

I agree on this too it make more sense. Let me know about the pictures. Thank you BAI73 (talk) 17:42, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

That is great that you are uploading some photos, please do post the URLs here when they are up. The note from the foundation agrees 100% with what I told you and showed you in the guidelines. - Ahunt (talk) 17:57, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I found your pix, will add them. - Ahunt (talk) 18:11, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Manufacturer is BDC Aero Industrie not Bortolanza, please change. BAI73 (talk) 17:50, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

As noted in the article BDC has produced Pumas, but so has Bortolanza himself in Italy, see the cited ref http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/CCARCS-RIACC/ADet.aspx?id=512664&rfr=RchSimpRes.aspx?cn=%7C%7C&mn=%7CPUMA%7C&sn=%7C&on=%7C%7C&m=%7C%7C for proof of this. That Bortolanza Puma, C-IPUM, seems to be located in Lachute and owned by "9152-8182 Québec Inc." so perhaps you can ask that company about how it came that Bortolanza was building Pumas in Italy in 2007. As it stands the information in the article is all supported by proper reliable refs. The info box lists all makers of the aircraft, past and present. I have added dates to the infobox to clarify. - Ahunt (talk) 17:57, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

The information is incorrect the mistake was done at the registration with Transport Canada, Bortolanza company never existed. The mistake is been taking care with Transport Canada soon it will be changed. All the Pumas in Canada are made by BDC Aero Industrie Inc. To resume Antonio Bortolanza created the Pluto in Italy under the company called Aeroplast, in Canada was redesigned and re-engineer by BDC Aero Indurtrie for the new market which is not ultralight. None of the part design of the Puma fit with the Pluto, as well as the material used. If you need more clarification let me know. Best regardsBAI73 (talk) 18:18, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Okay thanks for that. Since Wikipedia works on verifiability as soon as TC updates that then I can fix the article. As far as Aeroplast goes do you have a reference that shows this company made the Pluto and Drakken? - Ahunt (talk) 18:23, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I have done a lot of searching and came up with some refs to support Aeroplast bulding the Pluto, but nothing on the Drakken. I have added this to the article with the refs. If you have a ref for Aeroplast building the Drakken that would be very helpful. - Ahunt (talk) 18:51, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

The Title on the Picture is Puma Limited is not Draken, not Pluto if you want to have a picture of the Draken and the Pluto let me know. Best regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by BAI73 (talk • contribs) 18:20, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

If you have photos you can upload to Commons of the Pluto and Drakken that would be great to help fill in the history here! - Ahunt (talk) 18:23, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Change the manufacturer name for the Puma BAI73 (talk) 18:34, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Where are you meaning? - Ahunt (talk) 18:53, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Let me corrected so you understand: Manufacturer: Aeroplast (Pluto and Drakken, 1980s-1999)

               BDC Aero Industrie  (Puma, 2007 to current)

Designer: (because we are in Puma Page not Pluto nor Draken) is BDC Aero Industrie Inc, Puma was not done by Bortolanza. Does it make sense to you? Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by BAI73 (talk • contribs) 19:09, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

This page is about all the variants of the basic design, the Pluto, Drakken and Puma, so it lists all manufacturers of the the type. I have two reliable Transport Canada refs that show Bortolanza built Pumas, this one and this one. If they get changed then I will take that out, but for now there are pretty good verifiable sources on this. - Ahunt (talk) 19:25, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Also number built in Canada only is 6, in Italy I have to do a search and let you know, BAI73 (talk) 19:23, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Actually the TC refs show five built in Canada and one in Italy. If you have a ref for the numbers built before that that would be great! In the meantime that is why the infobox says "at least six" as that is all we can verify now. - Ahunt (talk) 19:25, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

The Bortolanza you see in TC is a mistake made by TC and it will be corrected soon, I'm the one giving information to TC. In Canada there are 6 made, nothing was done in Italy, Aeroplast close in 1999. BAI73 (talk) 19:33, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Okay, well when it gets changed we can fix that. It means that someone put incorrect information on an AULA conformance declaration and in registering an aircraft. TC may do some investigating before changing that, but when it does get changed then this article can also be changed. - Ahunt (talk) 20:24, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Correction to be done once again:
Role:Ultralight aircraft and Light-sport aircraft
National origin:Canada
Manufacturer:Aeroplast (Pluto and Drakken, 1980s-1999), BDC Aero Industrie (Puma, 2007 to present)
Designer: BDC Aero Industrie
(we are talking about Puma not pluto not Draken, or remove designer)
Status: In production (2015)
Number built:Six in Canada only
Unit cost:start from US$86,500 (2015) Let me know BAI73 (talk) 19:43, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

• As far as "Manufacturer" goes we have two reliable refs from Transport Canada that show that Bortolanza got the Bortolanza Puma approved as an AULA and built at least one. If the refs change we can fix that, but until then we only have your word that this legal document is wrong, against two reliable refs.
• As far as "Designer" goes the article covers the whole series and Bortolanza is the original designer. The text explains "The aircraft was structurally redesigned by BDC Aero Industrie for higher gross weights".
• As far as "Number built" goes we have reliable refs that show five built in Canada and one in Italy. If you have a better ref for six in Canada then I would be happy to fix that.
• As far as "Unit cost: start from US$86,500 (2015)" we have no ref for that. Your website has no prices on it. The "US$86,500 (2011)" is sourced from Bayerl, Robby; Martin Berkemeier; et al: World Directory of Leisure Aviation 2011-12, which is the most recent verifiable price. If you have a ref that gives a newer price then we can update this. Regardless the two prices agree anyway, just not the date. If you publish a new or updated price then we can use that to update the article.

Once again keep in mind that everything here needs to be sourced to verifiable sources and also that Wikipedia is not your company website, so the article is not necessarily going to say what you want it to. For instance I am sure that Cessna didn't want the article on the C-162 to list all the prototype crashes, controversies and the project cancellation, but these are all verifiable and part of the article. See also Law of unintended consequences. - Ahunt (talk) 20:20, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I will change the reference, this is one of the reason why Wikipedia is not reliable, if the references are wrong the editing is wrong, but in this case you are talking to the person that make the references, I will fix it and make you happy. BAI73 (talk) 20:27, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia can only be as accurate as the references are. Sure, if the refs change please do drop a note here and I will update the page. - Ahunt (talk) 20:32, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Aeroplast closed in 1999 not 2005 BAI73 (talk) 03:55, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I would love to be able to add that to the article, do you have a ref that says that? Right now all I have is this official Transport Canada document that shows that Bortolanza built one Puma in 2007 in Italy. - Ahunt (talk) 19:38, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

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