Talk:Armorial of Albania
Latest comment: 1 month ago by Kj1595 in topic Cernovichio family
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Cernovichio family edit
@Shadow4ya: Before I take the drastic measure in reporting you to the Admin board for disruptive editing, I will give you a chance in this talk page to make the argument as to why the Coat of arms of the Cernovichio paragraph should be removed. Removing well sourced content in Wikipedia is against the rules. If you are disputing parts of the paragraph, provide a detailed argument here as to why. Kj1595 (talk) 00:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- It is not that well sourced, and this inclusion goes against the well-researched and pretty much common view that Crnojević's and Balšić's were both Slavic noble families, not Albanian. It would need really, really extraordinary sources to prove otherwise, and sources included here are not that kind of sources. ౪ Santa ౪99° 22:53, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- However, I noticed a problematic scope of this article - I am not sure what it is. There are Italian and Slavic families included, and this is suposed to be what - list of CoA of Albanian nobility, or something else?--౪ Santa ౪99° 22:59, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- The article lists coats of arms of Albanian nobility, meaning families that originated from Albania or Albanian speaking territories and are identified as such from medieval and contemporary sources. Name me these so called "pure" Italian and Slavic families you so claim and I will gladly remove them from the article. Kj1595 (talk) 09:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
- Crnojević's and Balšić's were both Slavic noble families, not Albanian ౪ Santa ౪99° 01:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- The sources presented in the article are from European authors, not Slavic or Albanian, as to avoid any nationalistic bias. The origin of the Balsa family has been discussed at large in the wiki article. And the mounting evidence, including from Slavic sources, points towards an Albanian origin of the said family. As for the Cernovichio, it is very obvious that this family has at the very least partial Albanian lineage considering their family tree, having intermarried with 5 seperate Albanian noble families. I have provided multiple reputable sources from medieval European authors that identify them as Albanian. Furthermore, their coat of arms which is depicted in the Fojnica Armorial, shows a red shield with the black double-headed eagle. These are undeniable facts. The Cernovichio as a whole are probably a mixture of Albanian-Slavic but not pure of one or the other. Kj1595 (talk) 06:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Only modern sources (scholarship done between early-to-mid 20th century and present day) can validate any point editors trying to put forth, especially WP:extraordinary claims such as "Balšić's / Crnojević's were Albanians" - the more recent, the better ! Medieval sources are not reliable sources, not to mention they are PRIM sources and thus insufficient for validation of points made in article. Your opinion, interpretations, and your claim of "undeniable facts", "Fojnica Armorial" is unhelpful - we use most recent scholarship to write articles on history. ౪ Santa ౪99° 15:52, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- If you read the descriptive paragraph closely, I did not explicitly write that the Cernovichio were an Albanian family but that they were mentioned as such by certain authors. Nevertheless, I made contextual changes at the bottom of both paragraphs to present a more nuanced viewpoint. Kj1595 (talk) 20:26, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Only modern sources (scholarship done between early-to-mid 20th century and present day) can validate any point editors trying to put forth, especially WP:extraordinary claims such as "Balšić's / Crnojević's were Albanians" - the more recent, the better ! Medieval sources are not reliable sources, not to mention they are PRIM sources and thus insufficient for validation of points made in article. Your opinion, interpretations, and your claim of "undeniable facts", "Fojnica Armorial" is unhelpful - we use most recent scholarship to write articles on history. ౪ Santa ౪99° 15:52, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- The sources presented in the article are from European authors, not Slavic or Albanian, as to avoid any nationalistic bias. The origin of the Balsa family has been discussed at large in the wiki article. And the mounting evidence, including from Slavic sources, points towards an Albanian origin of the said family. As for the Cernovichio, it is very obvious that this family has at the very least partial Albanian lineage considering their family tree, having intermarried with 5 seperate Albanian noble families. I have provided multiple reputable sources from medieval European authors that identify them as Albanian. Furthermore, their coat of arms which is depicted in the Fojnica Armorial, shows a red shield with the black double-headed eagle. These are undeniable facts. The Cernovichio as a whole are probably a mixture of Albanian-Slavic but not pure of one or the other. Kj1595 (talk) 06:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Crnojević's and Balšić's were both Slavic noble families, not Albanian ౪ Santa ౪99° 01:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- The article lists coats of arms of Albanian nobility, meaning families that originated from Albania or Albanian speaking territories and are identified as such from medieval and contemporary sources. Name me these so called "pure" Italian and Slavic families you so claim and I will gladly remove them from the article. Kj1595 (talk) 09:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)