Talk:Ariarathes I of Cappadocia/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Cplakidas (talk · contribs. Will take this on shortly. 08:20, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Hey Cplakidas. I'm ready when you are. Cheers, - LouisAragon (talk) 16:31, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Bloody hell, I had completely forgotten about this. Thanks and apologies. Constantine ✍ 16:39, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: We know each other for quite some time now, no worries. ;-) - LouisAragon (talk) 00:28, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: - LouisAragon (talk) 19:39, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Overview

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Suggestions

• Persian Achaemenid governor include "Persian" into the link, and "Achaemenid Persian" is better.

• Done.

• by the Macedonian Perdiccas and his territory was seized, whereafter it was contested between several of Alexander's successors and former generals. This needs to be broken up somewhere, perhaps right after Perdiccas. Also link the Diadochi here.

• Done. Linked "successors and former generals" to Diadochi.

• However Ariarathes I's dynastic successors regained control over Cappadocia comma after however, and add the date.

• Done. Corrected some information within the "Successors" section. Please let me know what you think about the changes I made in this particular section.

• The kingdom founded by Ariarathes I lasted three centuries before being incorporated into the Roman Empire. "lasted three centuries" means that it lasted 300 years or so, not across three calendar centuries. I would simply strike this and add "when they were deposed by the Roman Republic" (not Empire) after until 96 BC.

• A very valid point. Done.

• the Greek attestation Better: "Hellenized form"

• Done.

• Perhaps a brief mention of his father's status?

• Aight, so I had another look. The article currently states: "Ariarathes and his family served as minor officials in the satrapy of Cappadocia, which was governed by Datames at the time." According to Iranica (Weiskopf), his father "was a lesser officer and later apparently satrap in northern Cappadocia during Ar­taxerxes’ II reign (Diodorus, 31.19, where his position is clearly exaggerated)".
  I wasn't able to find any additional (i.e. detailed) information about his father. - LouisAragon (talk) 19:53, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
• Will do. Will strike this comment when its done.

• after the ascendance of Artaxerxes III I guess you mean accession or ascension

• Yeah that's definitely what I meant. Many thanks for spotting this error.

• response to the power perhaps "excessive" power, just to hit the point?

• Done.

• Given that few people have any clue about the geography involved, I'd suggest adding them: "the satrapy of Cappadocia in central Anatolia", or "and the neighbouring satrapy of Phrygia". Conversely, at governor of the neighbouring southern Cappadocian satrapy "the neighbouring" is redundant since the relation has been made clear early on.

• Done.

• I would also counsel against using the numeral constantly; use "Ariarathes" for the article subject

• Valid point. Got rid of quite a few. Tried to limit it to one usage per section, except for the "successors" section where some of his successors with the same name are mentioned. If you think I should remove more numerals, please let me know.

• Achaemenid campaign to pacify Egypt Link?

• Added "Battle of Pelusium (343 BC)".

• Macedonian appointed dash between the two words. Ditto for battle hardened

• Done.

• leading the resistance in Cappadocia "in Cappadocia" is redundant as you have mentioned it before, as Ariarathes was its governor (so obvious) and as the context is much wider than Cappadocia (you go on to mention his participation at Gaugamela)

• You're completely right. Done.

• After the defeat at Gaugamela the Persian/Achamenenid defeat. For context I would also add the consequences of the battle: the end of the Achaemenid Empire and its replacement by Alexander's Macedonian Empire. Otherwise the next sections won't make sense.

• Done.

• He founded the ... killed the Pseudo-Smerdis. this should go right at the beginning where his father is mentioned.

• Placed it right behind the sentence which mentions his father and brother. Please let me know if you think I should change some words.

• Cappadocia was granted link to the relevant partition treaty

• Linked "was granted" to Partition of Babylon.

• from other satraps "from the other Macedonian satraps"

• Done.

• Link Aramaic, the Kingdom of Pontus, and the Ariobarzanids

• Done.

• Basileus in italics

• Done.

• A few years later, redundant

• I beleive you mean the sentence starting with "Several years later"? Done.

• from the Seleucids remove duplicated link to the Seleucids

• Done.

• The Schottky 2006 citation is not linked to its respective source (probably ref=harv missing). Also, you cite Shahbazi 1986 whereas in the sources the year is given as 1987.

• darkblue

• Add locations to your sources.

• Added as many as I could. Iranica entries are somewhat problematic in this regard.

• Van Dam 2002 does not appear to have been used at the article.

• Done (removed it).

Overall it looks good, well referenced and with a proper structure. I'll make another pass tomorrow, and also do my spotcheck for copyvio then. Constantine ✍ 18:07, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: I left a reply at the last remaining point (in relation to his father). Please see above. Btw, I'm curious for your opinion;

1. What do you think about the images in the biography section? Are they appropriate, or would you suggest other pics?
2. Do you think its been made sufficiently clear that Ariarathes was originally satrap in Northern Cappadocia, but eventually became ruler of a kingdom in what used to be the Southern Cappadocian satrapy?

- LouisAragon (talk) 19:53, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

@LouisAragon: Apologies for the long delay, real life got in the way. Lacking any images more specific to the topic, they are fine. On the second question, no, that does not appear anywhere; it is made explicit for his successors, but not for Ariarathes himself. Also, there should be a mention in the text that after 331 BC, Ariarathes was an independent monarch. The question should also be addressed whether he assumed the title (and insignia) of king or whether he continued as a nominal satrap (and de facto monarch) since his legitimacy came from his appointment by the Achaemenids? In other words, the claim that he "established the Kingdom of Cappadocia" should be backed up with some details, because given the interruption caused by Greek control, a more cautious view would be that the actual Kingdom of Cappadocia appears to have been established by Ariarathes II, and Ariarathes I was rather in an intermediate situation: both an Achaemenid remnant and a precursor of the later kingdom. Constantine ✍ 10:48, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

@LouisAragon: a friendly reminder. Constantine ✍ 18:11, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: Uff, mad busy (Uni), thanks for the ping. Will get to it this weekend in all likelihood. - LouisAragon (talk) 21:52, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: In relation to his "status"; I believe you're spot on. Indeed, having had a new fresh look, Ariarathes I seems to have occupied some sort of intermediate position. The exact overlap and context is sketchy however. Anyhow, I changed a few words in the lede and added information about him being an independent monarch to the body of the article.[1] Please let me know what you think and/or whether I'm still missing certain things. As for the pics; good, I'll keep both of them! - LouisAragon (talk) 23:04, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

@LouisAragon: It looks good to me. Happy to promote, well done! Constantine ✍ 12:26, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: Great, thank you very much for your time! :-) - LouisAragon (talk) 21:53, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

I realise that it is shown on the current map, if you squint, but an additional map showing the Satrap of Cappadocia specifically may be helpful to a reader. Eg File:Achaemenid Cappadocia.jpg? Gog the Mild (talk) 11:26, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: Yeah I've seen that map before but I decided to ommit it on purpose, for the boundaries of Cappadocia and other provinces appear to have been drawn based on the creator's own interpretation, rather than being based on any of the linked sources within the image description (I checked all sources). Thank you very much for your suggestion Gog. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:10, 27 August 2019 (UTC)