Talk:Apple cider/Archive 1

Archive 1

Now it sounds like this is almost exclusively a US thing.

Why the split from apple juice? You know, this kind of beverage isn't exclusive to the US, and is just considered another form of apple juice in other parts of the world. How is Happy Planet Apple Juice [1] not "apple cider"? How about the Tradition brand [2], which labels its 3.76L bottles as apple juice but its 1.92L bottles containing the same liquid as "Sweet apple cider" (though both remain "jus de pomme" on the French part of the label). And here's another link [3] that suggests the distinction between apple juice and apple cider is purely an East Coast thing. --Boffob 15:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

In the United States, almost everyone recognises the difference between apple cider and apple juice, and most can tell them apart by taste alone. Whether a few companies mix the names is irrelevent. I've seen sorbet sold as sherbert, and vice-versa, as well. And while it would be sufficient cause for the split, even if it were just regional, it's also worth note that the United States has the majority of native speakers of English alive today, so its usages are more significant, by population, than all other usages combined, when it comes to the English-language encyclopedia. If the Chinese think Apple Cider and Apple Juice are the same, they have a whole Chinese-language encyclopedia in which to explain that.--Kaz 16:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Yup, at least on the east coast, cider means fresh-pressed, usually unfiltered, requires refrigeration (it ferments rapidly if not refrigerated), and until maybe a decade or two ago it was only available in the autumn. There's certainly nothing wrong with having an article about something that isn't drank everywhere in the world though. There's a big cider press near here that we bring our windfalls to, I'll try to take a picture of it next time we go up. It is a real, actual thing, not just something Kaz made up. ----SB_Johnny|^talk|_books 00:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

yes quite, in the American life Apple cider is a very common treat, quite different from european "cider" and quite different from store bought apple juice. The article does a nice job of identifying the flavor differences. Any naturalised american could tell you the difference in taste and exture between apple juice and apple cider. :) --68.22.19.194 15:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

That's because European cider is what Americans call "hard cider". But Europe also has cloudy apple juice, they just don't call it cider because the word cider in the rest of the civilized world exclusively refers to the alcoholic stuff. Instead, this cloudy juice, which is pretty much the same as American apple cider, is labeled as "Old fashioned" apple juice or under some other related epithet ("old style", "rustic", "unfiltered", "first press", etc.). It might be harder to find in certain places (for some reason, at least from my experience, Europeans seem very fond of filtered apple juice from green varieties of apples, something I can't easily find in Canada).--Boffob 22:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

"it's also worth note that the United States has the majority of native speakers of English alive today" - This seems dubious. If any country has the greatest number of native English speakers, it seems that country would be India. -- 20:46, 02 November 2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.70.220 (talk)

I love the Simpsons as much as anyone, but I'm not sure that the Ned Flanders quote is really relevant to this article, especially considering that no other source for that quote can be found. Just my two cents. -Arbatov — Preceding undated comment added 19:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it's gone now, but the complete quote is quite enlightening as to the complexity of the issue (reminescent of the Straight Dope article on the matter). In fact, just yesterday I noticed the local "apple cider" producer (Wellesley) labels both its cloudy and clear apple juice varieties as "Sweet apple cider". Now, I have seen the cloudy stuff labeled as juice before (sometimes as "Old fashioned apple juice", in fact, before seeing that Simpsons episode, I had never seen the word cider refer to anything but (hard) cider), but this is the first time I see clear juice labeled as cider...--Boffob 19:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we're running into regional name differences here. There's parts of the country that call "Apple Cider" what others call "Apple Juice" and there are also parts that call "Apple Cider" what others call "(Hard) Cider". This could be important if going to a bar or restraunt. Jon 20:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

This is just a form of Apple Juice. Why does it need to be separated into another article?86.149.78.229 21:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems that you read neither the article, nor the discussion above. You might wanna think about doing that. --Kaz 04:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I think for many, apple cider signals something very different from apple juice. Technically, there are two different production methods, and regardless of what people say in other languages, in (american) english at least, i believe there is a clear distinction of what apple juice and apple cider is, not just through taste, but in color and substance. And for companies having different labeling methods, as noted in the article there isn't a clear legal definition set out, so companies can say whatever they want. But I can guarantee you, if you took a sip of mulled apple juice instead of mulled apple cider, there would be a huge difference in taste. What I do suggest, however, is merging the apple cider and the cider articles, and noting on the cider page that in the United States, apple cider usually refers to the non-alcoholic beverage, while hard cider refers to traditional cider. I think this a more agreable sollution, and keeps the distinction between juice and cider.Alcarcalimo2364 04:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the distinction is so clear even in American English. When one looks into the issue, the distinction between (clear) apple juice and apple cider may only be an Eastern US/Eastern Canada thing, and even then there may be regional differences (read the Straight Dope and other articles on the issue, there are some finer points and exceptions considered in many cases). And this article should not be merged with the cider one (which is huge and addresses exclusively what only the US and parts of Canada call "hard" cider). There are seperate articles specifically because this particular "apple cider" notion is purely a North American thing (again, not that the product doesn't exist elsewhere, because it does, it's just not considered a form of "cider", but a form of "apple juice", hence the "merge with apple juice" debates that come back periodically). So, again, the short version of it. Most of the world: cider=always alcoholic (clear or not); juice=non alcoholic (clear or not). US+parts of Canada: hard cider=alcoholic, apple cider=non-alcoholic, tangy and brown, juice= non-alcoholic, clear.--Boffob 04:55, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The majority of the natively English-speaking world uses the term "apple cider" the way it is in this article. This is because, you see, the majority of all people who speak English as their first language live in the United States.

I'm starting to think there may be some kind of mental deficiency that makes some people unable to differentiate between "cider" and "apple cider", as if some kind of sper-dyslexia renders them unable to read both words at once and understand that they're different things. --Kaz 16:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Oppose in eastern Canada and the northeastern U.S. apple juice and cider are very different drinks. To me it wouold be like merging butter and whipped cream or yogurt and cheese.CApitol3 05:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I say Merge with Apple Juice. The fact of the matter is that 'apple cider' is a type of apple juice no matter what you call it. It is the juice of apples and as has been previously stated the same product is available outside of North America, but it is just a type of apple juice.Liam Markham 22:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Merge If you're sitting on the right hand side of the Atlantic cider always means alcoholic. Have been looking hard at making my own so have examioned it harder than I might normally. Here's an in depth site if anyone wants more http://www.ukcider.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Main_Page Ianlighting 21:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep - Saying true apple cider doesn't deserve a split article from "apple juice" is like saying wine doesn't deserve a split from "grape juice". The two are entirely different creatures. Unfortunately, apple cider is one of those locally-produced products which are simply ignored by major supermarket chains in most states due to the fact that it can't be flash-boiled and steeped in preservatives so it's as inert and shelf-stable as Styrofoam. I'm originally from upstate NY, but I've also lived in Georgia, Florida, and Virginia. In none of those three states did I ever see a single supermarket selling actual cider, nor met a single person who was capable of identifying the real stuff from the fake.

There are currently several companies (unethically, I believe) trying to capitalize on the "rustic mystique" of real apple cider by selling filtered, sweetened, from-concentrate, pasteurized apple juice which they label as "cider". One such company is Ziegler's. The stuff is functionally identical to Mott's Shelf-Stable No-Refrigeration-Required Reconstituted Apple Drink #4.

Real cider separates into varying layers of dark and light brown. It leaves a coating of dark sediment on the bottom of the glass. It ferments continuously over a period, and you can slowly taste the difference. It has that tartness you can't possibly replicate with citric acid and artificial flavorings; it's like biting into a warm autumn apple you just pulled off the tree yourself. Bullzeye ^{(Ring for Service)} 06:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Keep - Though cider (in US-talk) is clearly just a subspecies of juice, it is notable enough for its own article. Note, for instance FDA statements and actions based on "cider", though the rules passed would apply to all apple juice varieties. (Incidentally, US-cider:juice is NOT wine:grape juice. Actually, HARD cider:juice::wine:grape juice.) - Mdbrownmsw 12:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Keep- This west coaster has known the difference between apple cider and apple juice since I was a little kid. Closely related but two totally different things and apple cider is article worthy. Turtlescrubber 04:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Keep - To this New Englander, the distinction is so clear as to make the above discussion ludicrous. Apple cider makes life worth living; apple juice is something you feed to whiny children. 65.213.77.129 18:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Keep - I think this article has its place-- I specifically was looking for an explanation of the difference between 'apple cider' and 'apple juice'. The article on 'Cider' did not provide that. Smarter people than me may already know these distinctions, but I come to Wikipedia to learn what I don't know. --Mike. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.96.1.17 (talk • contribs) 03:42, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

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So. Many. Bigots.

For crying out loud, stop the bigoted moaning and let our North American friends have this page for the non-alcoholic drink popular on that side of the Atlantic. We all know that it's called apple juice in the UK...calling for this page to be deleted is neither big nor clever. 80.41.221.11 (talk) 10:30, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Well I didn’t know it was called “apple juice” in the U.K. until now... BlackAdvisor (talk) 18:30, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

OK I misinterpreted your meaning there... though I do wonder if there’s some name to specify between nonalcoholic cider and what U.S. people call apple juice - outside of the US? or maybe I need to reread these articles - BlackAdvisor (talk) 19:21, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Please delete

totally misleading. This article is not about Cider but about un-filter Apple-Juice. Please delete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.77.161.119 (talk) 08:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Please read and re-read the introduction to the article. "Apple cider" is an American term for a specific type of unfiltered, tart apple juice. This is not to be confused with the British use of "apple cider" to refer to fermented (alcoholic) apple juice, which Americans refer to as "hard cider". - SummerPhD (talk) 01:07, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

in 70% of the world Apple Cider is actually alcoholic, this article is a bit weird from a euro/asian perspective as the biggest volume sold worldwide contains alcohol Markthemac (talk) 22:46, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

So is the argument that a word can only have one meaning? Or if a country that is foreign to you uses a word in a manner you are unfamiliar with you should ignore it or try to make it conform to your own views? Is there any particular reason why cider can't refer to both an alcoholic and a non-alcoholic drink? If the two products produced are recognizably different, are found in different countries, and have different cultural associations but share the same name does that mean you pick one and pretend the other doesn't exist? Would this even be an argument if one of the two drinks was called something else? I ask because I yearn for knowledge.

No, seriously, I'm curious as to the reasoning behind the discomfort this seems to cause. MultK (talk) 03:25, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Commercial Production Inconsistency

The section Commercial Production says... "About 2 kilograms (4.4 lb)[citation needed] of apples is needed to make a 1 litre (2.1 US pt) of cider." Then it goes on to say a bit later, these modern systems are capable of producing 1 litre (0.26 US gal) of juice from as little as 5 kilograms (11 lb)[citation needed] of fresh apples." So a modern system - presumably automated - produces about the same cider from almost 3 times as many apples as a hand production method? Maybe someone who knows about this can clarify the numbers and grammar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TravelingDude (talk • contribs) 04:53, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

The discrepancy is someones mistake. As the owner/operator of the equipment that the pictures included in this article [as of Nov 2013] come from, I can testify that this system can consistently produce 1 litre of juice from 1.5 kilos or less, and that is pretty much "industry standard" for commercial operations. Change has been made. --Red58bill (talk) 05:22, 29 November 2013 (UTC)