Talk:Ancient Order of Hibernians/Archive 1

Archive 1

NPOV

I made changes that makes this article a little more NPOV. Anti-protestant comment not removed, just changed.

Roodog2k 17:00, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

One more change to illustrtate that the "mixture of religon and politics" and its similarity in that regard with the Orange Order leads to "critisized for being anti-protestant". Also, its better style (IMHO) that way around. 166.20.114.10 19:36, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Oops... that was me! Roodog2k 19:37, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

That formula ("has been called...") is fine, but is is not due to being comparable to the Orange Order. -Willmcw 20:13, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. The point I was making was that "Its mixture of religion and politics" leads to the accusation of being anti-protestant (which is akin to the Orange Order being accused of being anti-catholic)" That is what I was saying. I'll change it thusly. Roodog2k 10:32, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I these latest changes make the article even more NPOV and more accurate. 1) I removed a reference to the Orange Order, since the AOE is largest population is in the USA. 2) I added a statement that is the other side of the argument wrt anti-protestant. Roodog2k 10:51, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The AOH is not comparable to the Orange Order. both Organisations exist for different reasons and the AOH pre-dates the Orange Order by over 200 years. Seán — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.69.181 (talk) 16:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Support for the Anti-protestant argument

Since Will was looking for documentation supporting the anti-protestant thread (I saw what you deleted, it was a good question : ) ), this is from the AOH in America website:

The A.O.H. has been at the forefront on Irish issues such as: Immigration Reform, Peace with Justice in a United Ireland; ....

This statement can be arguably considered "anti-protestant" in that the AOH in America has taken a pro-Republican stance. Remeber, this is an AMERICAN organization, so with regards to the sectarian issues in Ireland, I beginning to think that we need to further qualify this "anti-protestant" statment. Now, in the United States, I seriously doubt that there is anything to indicate an "anti-protestant" outside the Anglo-Irish-American political arena.

Further, according to the website, the AOH in America is a seperate but related organization to its Irish 'cousin'. I think we may need further clarification in that as well.

Thoughts?

166.20.114.10 16:01, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Dang, the above contribution is mine. Forgot to login.

Roodog2k 16:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the organization's own statements can be taken at face value, nor do they necessarily reflect their original purpose. But we can certainly write that that is what they say. As for the U.S. and Irish branches, I agree that treating them separately within the same article may be the best route. Though nominally the same organization, the branches have divergent histories. Cheers, -Willmcw 18:39, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Taking their statement at face value is perfectly fine, with certain qualifications if you want to be NPOV. When the organization says that they support a "United Ireland" there is a certain connotation there. No matter what, both sides of any issue should be presented, and its often best to have a 1st degree source. You can say "On one hand, the AOH says A. On the other hand, we have B." Despite my Catholic background, which I freely admit on my talk page, I am skeptical of the AOH in America and their political views on Ireland. As an American, I don't think its any of our business to get involved.Roodog2k 18:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The AOH is not anti-Protestant because of its association with Irish nationalist politics, it is because of its conflation of Catholicism with Irish nationalism. This rules or attempts to rule out Protestant involvement in nationalist politics, which further deepens the already stark politico-religious divisions in Ireland. The Orange Order's conflation of Protestantism with unionism has the same effect, if to a different degree. While technically they may be separate organisations, the AOH has cross-membership in the States and Ireland, and was established in Ireland by returned emigrants.

Lapsed Pacifist 06:33, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

You put that very well, although I was trying to draw a distinction between different flavors of being "anti-protestant". The AOH in America does not seem to have a broad anti-protestant agenda with regards to other protestant groups in the United States. With regards Ireland and Norther Ireland, this is a very arguable point. The claim of the AOH being "anti-protestant", as previously described in the article, however, implied very strongly that the AOH was against all protestant groups in general, including within the United States which is not accurate. The anti-protestant claim must be qualified in its proper context, which is why I said it was not NPOV. Roodog2k 19:05, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

again, I have commented above in reference to anti-protestantism. The AOH is not Anti Protestant. The AOH is a Catholic organisation and is also a Nationalist organisation but is not anti-protestant. As for worldwide membership.... The AOH Board of Erin has the following proper title. The Ancient Order of Hibernians Friendly Society of Great Britain and Ireland. There are divisions in Ireland and Scotland at the moment as well as Provincial boards etc. There are no longer any Divisions in England. The AOH exists in Ireland, Scotland, America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. there was once even an AOH Division in both Hong Kong and in Mexico although they are no longer active. The AOH established itself in areas where there were number of Irish Catholic people. Seán

It was not specifically anti-Protestant, but it was one of the groups seen as hostile and backward-looking by Protestants - see Rome Rule for the arguments. And it was disliked by the minority who didn't like either Protestant or Catholic sectarianism.86.42.213.3 (talk) 15:01, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Anti-protestant?

What's the factual basis for the statement that the AOH is anti-protestant?

Repeated assertions by commentators: [1][2][3]. -Willmcw 22:26, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Commentaries are opinions, not facts. AOH was not founded as an anti-Protestant organization. If some criticize AOH as being anti-Protestant, then the article should read "Its critics accuse it of anti-Protestantism." That was done for the article on the organization's alleged counterpart, the Orange Order [4]. --Brianf 20:22:17, 2005-08-12 (UTC)

Do we have their founding documents? If not, how do we know what their founding purpose was? Thanks, -Willmcw 20:09, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

If we don't have founding docs, better to make hedged assertions (a la, "some say," "critics say," or "it seems that" they are anti-Protestant, than to ascribe a definite founding purpose or guiding principle, willmcw. It's far worse to make a positive unfounded assertion--"they are anti-protestant," which thus far appears to be only commentary/opinion--than to fail to make an assertion which may be true.

I have also been to several AOH Halls in Ireland. IF you look at the website www.aoh.com you can find contct information for a few halls under Pride of Erin. Which is the state board for Ireland

The AOH is not Anti - Protestant. The AOH is an Irish Catholic Fraternal Organisation and Friendly society. Membership requires specifically that members reach out to members of other faiths and beliefs. While people who are not Irish and Catholic can not become members they are welcome in halls,clubs, at events etc. The AOH in Ireland is a separate organisation to the AOH in America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand or elsewhere although all AOH Orders have connections. Seán — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.69.181 (talk) 16:00, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Worldwide Membership?

Is there any information suggesting there is membership outside both America and Ireland? If the membership stipulates one has to be of Irish descent, couldn't there be members/associations in other countries? i.e There are large Irish immigrant populations in Scotland, England, Australia etc 82.31.33.178 14:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I have heard there are lodges in Glasgow ( which has a sectarian tradition in any case ). 145.253.108.22 09:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

As detailed above - The AOH exists in Ireland, Scotland, America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. there was once even an AOH Division in both Hong Kong and in Mexico although they are no longer active. The AOH established itself in areas where there were numbers of Irish Catholic people. Seán — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.69.181 (talk) 16:23, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Historical background

I think the historical background section at the beginning should be reworded, because I found it very confusing, especially this part: His part of Ireland was called Laois, and had been settled by the Catholic Queen Mary in the 1550s. Accordingly O'Moore's revolt against this settlement in the next decade took on a religious aspect.

So, O'Moore's part of Ireland was Laois? I think that's unclear due to the previous line. Also, was he rebelling against the settlement established by a Catholic queen? How does that fit in with the AOH's goal of being a society for the protection of Catholic interests?66.230.72.51 18:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Rachel

I think the referenced article is completely wrong. Rory O'More was the local chieftain, and his family had been there for centuries. They had nothing to do with the 'Clanna Rory' of Ulster. In 1553-58 the (very Catholic) Mary of England settled County Laois (renamed Queen's County) with English settlers, and also the next door County Offaly as "King's County" named after her husband Philip II of Spain. So O'More's loss was an English-Irish matter and not a Catholic-Protestant dispute. I'm amazed that the encyclopedia could get it so wrong, but our Irish-American cousins aren't good at the minutiae of history. In fact Mary was the last sovereign Catholic queen of Ireland. The AOH was set up centuries later.Red Hurley 16:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

And looking further, Radclyffe's (Sussex's) family were the very Catholic dukes of Norfolk (who still are). The Defenders were set up in the 1780s in another part of Ireland. And why would O'More describe his brand-new group as "ancient"? Sounds like yet another American group needing to invent an ancient past to wow its new members. The encyclopedia was drafted in 1910 which says it all.Red Hurley 16:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

There should be a category for these sort of organizations - that are "ancient" from day one. Do they have a special handshake like the masons?86.42.207.30 (talk) 21:47, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, there are little masonic hands shaking on the logo that I found haha. Hmmm, they seem quite Jacobin from their site (promoting socialist political parties). Yet apparently some fought for El Caudillo against the infidel during the Last Crusade, confusing - maybe they have changed over time. - Yorkshirian (talk) 22:36, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Marching Season

In the absense of any supporting evidence I've removed the section relating to controversial AOH marches.

The AOH in Ireland do not hold marches or parades. The current "Legal" term applied in the North of Ireland to our public processions is "Parading" however we describe our activity as religious processions - following a tradition used by many in the Christian world from about the 3rd or 4th century AD. We do not have contentious "Parades" because of a number of reasons. Mainly because we withdrew our processions from the streets in the North of Ireland during most of the period referred to as the "Troubles" and secondly because we celebrate Feast days such as St. Patrick's Day (March 17th) and the Feast of the Assumption (August 15th). Our processions tend to be hosted within Catholic majority areas. for the AOH the date of the procession takes prime importance over any piece of land or "Traditional Route". We also do not require members to participate in public processions, neither do we hire in or invite outside bands to our processions. We have our own AOH bands. The nature and meaning of our religious processions are very far removed from Marches or Parades which celebrate victories or commemorate battles or which are militaristic in nature. Seán — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.69.181 (talk) 16:20, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Removed unsourced sentence

The AOH had a historical concept of itself as a continuation of the 1641 rebellion, a Catholic uprising which attempted to wipe out the Protestant Plantations of Ireland and to extirpate heresy (by which was meant Protestantism) in Ireland.

I removed this sentence because it wasn't sourced and had been like that for about six months. I think that with the removal of that last unsourced statement that this article is finally "cleaned up". P.Haney 20:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

You are right to remove this section as it is totally inaccurate. Seán — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.69.181 (talk) 16:07, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Sectarian?

Given that AOH members "must be Catholic and either Irish born or of Irish descent" I intend to add the descriptor "sectarian" to the first sentence of the article. Unless anyone can concince me that the AOH is not sectarian, and in fact allows non-Catholics to join? In which case we would need to do some extensive clean-up of the article. Irvine22 (talk) 14:21, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I am surprised that your many blocks have failed to show you the error of your ways, I believe it is time to go for a full topic ban. O Fenian (talk) 18:04, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think its "sectarian"—the Catholic Church is not, nor has it ever been a sect. It is the Living Body of Christ. Non-Catholics can't join the Dominican Order either. This organisation seem to be involved in dodgy socialist advocation though (promote socialist/abortionist SF & SDLP on its site, when FG, CSP and now Coir are, or in the former's case, were more Catholic). Seems to be a similar case to Americanism more than anything. - Yorkshirian (talk) 15:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, I was looking at the Orange Institution article and I notice that that particular Protestant fraternal organization is described as "sectarian" in the lede of that article. That seems to be a pretty solid precedent for describing the Order of Ancient Hibernians as "sectarian", don't you think? Irvine22 (talk) 00:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

No, it really isn't. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 00:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

again I have covered this in earlier comments. The AOH in Ireland is not sectarian. It is a single identity organisation but its rules do not allow sectarianism. Seán — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.69.181 (talk) 16:09, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Homophobic?

Does the article fully cover the homophobic attitudes of the AOH, as expressed by the longtime ban on gay and lesbian groups participating in the New York St Patrick's Day parade? Roger Casement would not approve. Neither would Patrick Pearse for that matter. Irvine22 (talk) 01:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

You have no idea of what Casement or Pearse would approve or disapprove. Furthermore, the AOH is not homophobic, which is one of the most overused terms of our age. The AOH is a largely Catholic organization, and Catholic teaching condemns homosexuality as sinful. Whether you agree with that teaching is irrelevant, and calling it homophobia is inaccurate. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:46, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

The OP Irvine22 has been banned from Wikipedia indefinitely for "unrepentant and apparently unreformable history of disruption and aggression" which could obviously include this suggestion.

The AOH in Ireland is not homophobic. You will find various inaccurate references to the AOH and homophobia on the internet - but they are just that - inaccurate. The AOH follow church teaching but that does not make them homophobic. As for the St. Patrick's day parade in New York, it is organised by the AOH in America. I think you will find that the issue is not about gay rights and / or homophobia... it is more about what is permitted in the procession. Seán — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.69.181 (talk) 16:12, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

The St. Patrick's Day Parade IS NOT Organized by the Ancient Order of Hibernians, it is Organized by the St. Patrick's Day Parade Committee . Also you misrepresent the issue as Gays have never been "banned from the parade", the issue has been can they march under a separate banner promoting their lifestyle. Banners are regulated and it is not just enforced against the gay community, one could not march with a banner associated with the Democratic or Republican or any other political party either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.112.241.169 (talk) 02:12, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

References

External links

As there is a link for the main webpage of the AOH, I see no need for any links to specific state or local affiliates. There was a very long list of such links until a few months ago, when I removed them as inappropriate promotion. Connections to affiliates can be found through the main page. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I am aware that the AOH, Board of Erin, are working on developing their own website which should be available later this year. The AOH in Ireland has not previously been of the mind to promote itself in this way but now feels that there is so little accurate information about the AOH in Ireland that a web presence would be beneficial. Seán — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.69.181 (talk) 16:13, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Irish American Wiki Article

There is a discussion currently happening at the Irish American article around Scots Irish content; the discussion needs more participation and editorial perspective (regardless of what yours might be.) Please have a look there and share your thoughts as it affects both articles and really needs much more input than what is being offered by too few contributors. Thank you 67.83.75.57 (talk) 15:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Notable buildings

I removed the following list from the article and bring it here for discussion.

• Hibernia Hall, Davenport, Iowa
• St. Michael's Church, Cemetery, Rectory and Ancient Order of Hibernians Hall, Parnell, Iowa
• Hibernian Hall (Boston, Massachusetts)
• Ancient Order of Hibernians Hall, Anaconda, Montana
• Hibernian Hall (Charleston, South Carolina)

What makes these buildings in particular notable? Should we not have some references here that indicate why this is so? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 02:36, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, i just split those out to List of Hibernian buildings instead, and added a See also link to that, to avoid confusion here in this article. Briefly, the NRHP-listed places are notable because they meet one or more of 4 objective criteria (architecturally important at a national level, significantly associated with an event or person, etc.), judged by local, state, national staff and documented extensively. See National Register of Historic Places. The list-article will get developed more by me, soon, to add a bit, and more by others over time. If you're interested, you could follow instructions at wp:NRHPhelp to collect the good NRHP document sources which provide specifics on each one, and which are good, reliable sources. Hope this helps. I may not watch here; perhaps further discussion at Talk:List of Hibernian buildings, if needed? --doncram (talk) 17:28, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for undertaking that. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 02:12, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Notable buildings

I removed the following list from the article and bring it here for discussion.

• Hibernia Hall, Davenport, Iowa
• St. Michael's Church, Cemetery, Rectory and Ancient Order of Hibernians Hall, Parnell, Iowa
• Hibernian Hall (Boston, Massachusetts)
• Ancient Order of Hibernians Hall, Anaconda, Montana
• Hibernian Hall (Charleston, South Carolina)

What makes these buildings in particular notable? Should we not have some references here that indicate why this is so? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 02:36, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, i just split those out to List of Hibernian buildings instead, and added a See also link to that, to avoid confusion here in this article. Briefly, the NRHP-listed places are notable because they meet one or more of 4 objective criteria (architecturally important at a national level, significantly associated with an event or person, etc.), judged by local, state, national staff and documented extensively. See National Register of Historic Places. The list-article will get developed more by me, soon, to add a bit, and more by others over time. If you're interested, you could follow instructions at wp:NRHPhelp to collect the good NRHP document sources which provide specifics on each one, and which are good, reliable sources. Hope this helps. I may not watch here; perhaps further discussion at Talk:List of Hibernian buildings, if needed? --doncram (talk) 17:28, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for undertaking that. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 02:12, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Irish name?

I'm not disputing that "Sean Ordú na nÉireannach" is the correct translation of "Ancient Order of Hibernians" into Irish, but is this Irish name commonly used anywhere? On a Google search, I only found one single incidence of the name that hadn't come from this Wikipedia article, and that was in somebody's comment on a YouTube video. The Irish Manual of Style says that an Irish version of a person's name may be given only "if it is a well-known, commonly used name for that person." The same should apply to organisations. Scolaire (talk) 10:03, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Patrick's Day Parade

Every year we see content being added about the AOH being criticised over the St. Patrick's Day Parade. I have a comment and a question. Comment: plenty of results come up on a Google news search about the parade being criticised. Not one of them says the Order has been criticised. This is not hair-splitting. If the criticism is directed at the organisation itself this should turn up in at least some of the searches; if not, it should not be a section in this article because there is no reliable source for the assertion that "the Ancient Order of Hibernians attracted criticism for their role..." Question: many of these reports say that the AOH organises the NYC parade, but is it true? The website of the parade organisers makes no mention of the AOH. It gives its address as Woodlawn Station Bronx, NY. The AOH St. Patricks Day page makes no mention of the NYC parade, and the list of addresses in New York does not include the Bronx. This story in the Spectator says that "it was run for more than a century by the Ancient Order of Hibernians...and it is now still effectively ruled by the Church" (italics added). A Google search with "-gay" added does not turn up a single result saying that the AOH organises the parade in NYC. Strange, that! So why do so many news stories say (usually at the end) that the parade is run by the AOH? My guess that it is because they saw it on Wikipedia. Scolaire (talk) 23:40, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

An attempt was made here to deal with this question, but unfortunately I had to revert it as unsourced. If somebody could provide reliable sources it would be worth saying in the article that the Order is not the organiser of the NYC parade, since this assertion comes up so often. In reverting, I briefly retored the "Controversy" section, to make it clear that my removal of it was deliberate. Scolaire (talk) 09:26, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

The AOH does not run the NYC St. Patrick's Day parade, please see the following news article http://www.irishcentral.com/news/AOH-leader-says-national-members-resent-focus-on-New-York-parade-.html The Parade is organized by the NYC ST. Patrick's Day Parade committee http://www.nycstpatricksparade.org/ a completely separate organization. The fact that "this assertion comes up so often" is a sad commentary on the death of Journalism, where reporters just parrot other sources without doing their homework. Request that his controversy be removed from the AOH section as it is only further promulgating misinformation. Ncosgrov (talk) 15:47, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

The AOH ran the parade from about 1851 when it became its official sponsor, until 1992, when the National AOH, in the face of growing opposition to their policies and repeated lawsuits against them, directed all AOH organizations to form separate corporations to run events such as the parade. According to the parade organizer's own site, "The NYC St. Patrick's Day Parade is run today by members of the AOH under a separate corporation, St Patrick’s Day Parade Inc." [5]. It's quite strange that this information doesn't appear in the article; it is what the Ancient Order of Hibernians is known for, even if that fact annoys them. - Nunh-huh 01:48, 30 September 2015 (UTC)