Talk:American Chinese cuisine/Archive 1

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Bone to pick...

Okay, I got a bone to pick with this article. I'm living in northern China, near Beijing, now, and the food here, compared to Chinese food in the U.S., does not mesh with this article. It may also be the region that I'm from, too. Apparently the Kansas City area has a number of northern Chinese restaurants. However, first off, the line that American Chinese food emphasizes cooking in oil is misleading. Yes, a lot of the most popular dishes in America (and I don't just mean the U.S. here) are the oilier ones -- but the Chinese in this region use MORE oil, not less, than typical American Chinese food. Heck, many of the dishes are just buried in oil! It's a major problem -- they cook in a lot of oil to make sure the food isn't bad, but it sure makes the food bad FOR you!

The Chinese dish Gu Lao Rou （古老肉）, or "Ancient [style] Meat," is an extremely close relative to American-style Sweet and Sour Pork. The dish varies some, from restaurant to restaurant, but it's very close to the American dish. Bu La Gu Lao Rou (不辣古老肉), or "Not Spicy Ancient Meat," is pretty much Sweet and Sour Pork. This variant, common in most restaurants around here, is pretty much Sweet and Sour Pork (but, well, in my opinion a little better). It's a lot oilier, but other than that, the flavor is pretty much the Sweet and Sour Pork I grew up with back home. It's possible that this is a somehow "Americanized" version, but I find that unlikely, since the city I'm in doesn't have many foreigners and not nearly as much Western influence as Tianjin, especially in the Chinese restaurants. (My favorite Chinese restaurants are the teeny-tiny hole-in-the-wall types, too.)

Anyway, when I can get to it I'll write something up about some of the food in this region, anyway. I ate chuan (串), or Chinese-style meat-on-a-stick, in the US too and there's no mention of it in American Chinese cuisine, either. It's screamingly common in northern China. So my experiences may just not be typical of a lot of Americans. Plus, the region I'm in may be showing syncretic elements common of Jing Cai (capital cuisine). -- Kaerondaes

Kaerondae, I believe the kind of Chinese restaurant that you grew up with in Kansas City is not the same kind of American Chinese described in this article. There were multiple waves of Chinese immigrants into the US in the past few decades. The Chinese restaurants in the US is turning pretty authentic, some of the high-end ones are now even better than those in Hong Kong though a few times more expensive.

When I started this article, what I had in mind was the Chop Suey restaurants that were typical in the US between the 1900's to the 1970's. This kinds of Chop Suey places still exist and they have their own tradition and history. I am not sure if these restaurants had changed their style over the past few decades when authentic completion came from overseas.

In my impression, Fung Lam Restaurant next to Universal Studio in LA and in San Jose is very likely a Chop Suey place because they have been around for ages. I cannot be sure because I have not eaten there before. Jimmy Wong's in Chicago was a very famous and high class Chop Suey restaurant in the 1970's. Even the Mayor dined there. Anyone in Chicago still frequents Jimmy Wong's? Is it still around? Kowloonese 06:10, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

Just a follow up. The Famous Fung Lam restaurant in San Jose was closed down since Jan 1, 2005. I heard that the heir of the family businese refuse to continue. Though I don't know about the other branch in Universal Studio, but I guess it is closed down too. Perhaps some other wikipedians can update current status of these "historical" American Chinese restaurants. Is Jimmy Wong's on Wabash Street near the Grant Park in Chicago still open. Kowloonese 23:08, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted back from "American and European Chinese cuisine" because it's probably better to either 1) redirect "European Chinese cuisine" or 2) write a European Chinese cuisine article. Fuzheado 22:30, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It may not be a wise move to mixed European and American Chinese cuisine into the article. It probably would be better to start an article on its own. The Choy Suey restaurants can be traced to the gold rush era or even earlier. When someone added modern Chinese American cuisine to the article, the whole focus of the article swifted. The section about the California cuisine started in the 90's are not choy suey restaurants. They fit better into the fusion cuisine kinda popular in California. Kowloonese 06:22, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

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Substantive changes: no 19th-century immigrant is now running a restaurant; rewrote MSG paragraph; non-Chinese customers often get fruit for dessert; removed some repetitive phrasing; deleted "white folk" because the clientele is simply non-Chinese, not just white. Vicki Rosenzweig 23:14, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Shouldnt it be (美国什碎館)?? 戴眩sv 06:01, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Or even 國 since in the US, it's mostly traditional Chinese characters. Fuzheado

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Someone might want to mention that American Chinese restaurants often serve buffets, which never happens in authentic Chinese restauarants. Also, American Chinese restaurants often buy their food pre-prepared, unlike in authentic Chinese restauants.

Buffets aren't part of the old chop suey houses. The Chinese buffet resturants appearing in midwestern states (like Idaho, Montana, and Iowa) and in college towns are run by recent (90's era or later) mainland immigrants). Buffets in areas with higher Asian-American populations tend to be pan-Asian and more "authentic". (Todai, Moonstar)--Yuje 08:09, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

From other cultures

It would be nice if this page linked to other psudofoeign cultures in the See also section.

Confusion

The titling of this article seems to make it refer to all American-influenced Chinese cuisine, while the article can't seem to decide if it's talking about the very old-fashioned "chop suey house" specifically, or about Chinese restaurants in America that are not wholly "authentic" in their variety.

The title means that it is inevitably going to be linked to by anyone writing an article about Americanised chinese food, even though most of these places are emphatically not the old-fashioned chop suey kind of cuisine.

Perhaps it would be better if this page was an introduction to all forms of Americanised chinese food, and the stuff specifically about the old-fashioned chop suey style was placed in another article? —Morven 22:06, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

In addition, there appears to be something of a derogatory tone being taken in this article about this style of cuisine, which does not fit with the Wikipedia NPOV policy ... —Morven 22:07, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

I started this article years ago. When I first wrote it, I only have Chop Suey House in mind. I treated Chop Suey as an American culture which has a long history but it is dying off when new waves of Chinese Immigrants came to the US in the last decade. Authentic Chinese cuisine is forcing these Chop Suey house out of business. The same happen in this article. When people who didn't even know what Chop Suey was start writing their own rendition of "American Chinese cuisine", the article totally lost focus. Since nobody own any article in wikipedia, what it turns out to be is just destiny. I just want to clarify that this article would have stayed put if its title was "Choy Suey House". Kowloonese 22:47, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

I received some suggestions that this article should probably split into two, one on the disappearing choy suey houses which had a long history in American culture. And this article can continue to evolve to represent what the current Chinese cuisine is in the US. In major cities like LA and Silicon valley, Chinese cuisine is almost as authentic as those one can find in mainland China and Hong Kong hence it is a moot point to write about American Chinese cuisine since there would be no difference. Kowloonese 00:08, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

Here in Ottawa Canada, several of the oldest Chinese restaurants have gone buffet all-you-can-eat (and, frankly, hardly at all Chinese), while most of the younger people are serving 'chop suey' food just like generations ago. We also have many 'authentic' Chinese cuisines here too, but they don't seem to be forcing out the takeouts, as they are mostly much more expensive. Check out the Canadian Chinese cuisine page - it's the one I've been helping with. I agree that Kowloonese should post his original under "Chop Suey House" as a historical-focus page. Then, the American Chinese cuisine page could be more up to date and inclusive. JohnSankey 13:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Western food?

Regarding the note, Some restaurants advertise their faux status by writing "Western food" on their signs in Chinese. It deters those who seek authenticity, while still attracting the Westerners who are unable to read the sign, would somebody be willing to translate "Western food" into Chinese for me, so I know what to look for (and, perhaps, avoid)? Thanks --RoySmith 20:26, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I can't remember the characters, but I saw it in McCawley's book.

• The Eater's Guide to Chinese Characters - Jim McCawley, a linguistics professor at the University of Chicago, wrote a field guide for Westerners who want authentic Chinese cuisine.

DirectorStratton 01:27, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

• Its 西餐 in Chinese characters, if it helps? ;P --Huaiwei 15:51, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Western Chinese cuisine?

I have been wondering. Would this page be more all-encompassing and perhaps even more accurate if we call is by "Western Chinese cuisine" instead of attributing its influence only to the United States, although the later does play a major role? For example, how about "Chinese food" served in Europe?--Huaiwei 15:51, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Is Chinese cuisine in Europe developed distinctly from that in North America? — Instantnood 17:04, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

I think American Chinese cuisine is more prevalent (and culturally significant) in the US than other Western countries, as there have been Chinese immigrants in the US for a much longer time than in other Western countries. It's a tough call, to be honest. DirectorStratton 18:42, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. The California Gold Rush and the construction of the TransPacific Railroad were mainly the reason American Chinese cuisine exist today. It has a unique history. Even if you can prove, British Chinese cuisine and German Chinese cuisine tastes the same, you will only confuse the historical portion if you lump all of them together. In my opinion, you can create a separate generic western Chinese cuisine and link to this page as a subpage of the more encompassing topic. Kowloonese 00:25, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Also disagree. The style basically developed in America, from the days of the gold rush and the railroads. The immigrants there found ingenious ways to throw together good-tasting dishes cheaply and quickly using ingredients on hand. Chop suey, egg foo young, fortune cookies, and other dishes were basically made in America. --Yuje 12:06, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

But as I allude in the above, I do recognise the fact that American influence in this form of cuisine is particularly prevalant, be it due to history or sheer number of migrants. That said, is it accurate to claim that this influence is purely an "American" one, when it represents more of a cross-cultural influence of Western and Chinese culinary tastes? How about Canadian influence, for example, unless we are trying to claim that "America" refers to the continent rather than the country?--Huaiwei 15:11, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Chinese in Canada and America share much of the same history so this type of food is shared between the US and Canada. The gold rush and transcontinental railroad construction happened in both countries at pretty much the same time, and Chinese settled the west coast of both countries. To say that its influence is purely, or almost purely American would be largely accurate, though. As Kownloonese said, the chop suey houses originate from the gold rush and railroad days, and the style has been in existence in America for over a hundred years. Even If things like fortune cookies and chop suey appear in Chinese cuisine in other western countries such as those in Europe or Latin America, the style developed in the US and was exported elsewhere. --Yuje 12:18, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

If "American Chinese cuisine" is represented solely by a single dish called chop suey, then yes, the above statement is probably agreeable. But we know its more then just one dish, and we know that despite American dominance, this form of influence is largely western rather then merely American. If Asians call (American-dominated) fast food "western food", then the same applies to Chinese food which came under Western influence. Americans may dominate in this sense, but would we deny the argument that they dominate contemporary "western culture" as well?--Huaiwei 14:07, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

"Chop suey house" is a nickname for the type of resturant that typically serves this kind of food. The other dishes mentioned in the article developed in America, too. What do you mean by "western influence"? This type of cuisine wasn't influenced by Carribbean, Mexican, South, or Central American food, and Europe played no role in its development, as Chinese migration there wss minimal at the time. Its biggest influence remains classical Chinese cuisine, from where it draws most of its basic methods and dishes. It's not western-influenced in the sense that the style merged western cooking styles or western recipes, but in that the style developed in the west based on local circumstances and ingredients, and to cater towards western tastes.--Yuje 16:18, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Then what do you mean by "American", when you yourself insists there is no influence from the rest of America from the Arctic to the Antarctic ocean? My definition of "Western" is as per the most common definition of what constitutes the western cultural/political realm, and this is, like it or not, dominated by the United States. Calling something "Western" does not blunt nor deny the dominance of American includence. Is American cuisine not "Western"? Is American tastes not "Western"? You continue to insist that this article should be called American because it is dominated by United States influence, and that is about it. Yet my concerns remain unresolved. What about the influences, no matter how small, from the rest of the Western realm? What about the fact that cuisine in the United States is also considered "Western Cuisine" at least in this part of the world? Heck, does 什碎館/雜碎館 sound American? Eventhe opening paragraph of this article already alludes that it is more "Western" then merely something solely from the United States of America. Are you going to address all these issues?--Huaiwei 16:34, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

American: largely used as a synomym for the USA (thus, the name Chinese American). I, like Kowloonese, feel that bringing in Europe, as you suggested at the beginning, would only confuse the issue, since the style is primarily American. It has over a century of history and well attributed origins (entire books and academic fields of study are based on Chinese in America), so I oppose merging this page into a generic one about all Chinese food in the western world. That's not to say I oppose articles about Chinese food in other western countries (one could write a fascinating one about chifas in South America), but it would be an injustice to lump this article together with all western Chinese cuisine. Oh, and 雜碎館 simply means "chop suey house". --Yuje 17:17, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

So why is this article not called "chop suey house" then? ;) (and you havent answered me. Does that sound like "American Chinese cuisine" to you?) Conversely, why do you not have a Chinese name for this so-called "American Chinese cuisine"? If "America" is supposed to mean the USA, then may I know why does the opening line refer to both Canada and the USA, and rest of the paragraph talks about western culinary issues? Trying to box this article within the confines of the USA based purely on its "origins" and "dominance" seems doomed from the start when it already alludes that it draws from wider cultural influences, and if we are to now accept Canadian incluence as well, then what about that from the rest of the Western hemisphere? If you are somehow worried that expanding this article to discuss about influence from the larger western world is doing a deservice to the American (US) influence, then that does make me wonder how it should be possible, when you also say the rest of the Western world isnt exactly that influencial anyway in the first place? Are there any other pressing reasons to resist the expansion of an otherwise unnaturally limited article?--Huaiwei 17:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

"Chop suey house" is a somewhat derogatory term used to name this type of food, since chop suey stereotypes the character and nature of this type of food. Chop suey simply means "leftovers", and the dish indeed originated as resturanteurs serving hastily thrown together leftovers. The way chop suey is made stereotypes how a lot of the cooking is done: fast preparation and cooking, thrown together quickly with improvised ingredients and stir-fried, and heavily loaded with oil, salt, and MSG. I've actually been hoping for someone to eventually split off sections of the article, clarifying the original "chop suey" cuisine (which is actually a unique style) from the more modern "Panda Express" variety, which is Chinese cuisine modified for western tastes. As for the actual phrase "American Chinese cuisine" in Chinese, I'm not actually sure. It's an English term, not a Chinese one (just like Chinese American and American-born Chinese). The closest translation I can think of is 中西餐. However, the same phrase is also used for resturants that serve both Chinese and American food, and sometimes also for HK-style western food. I oppose renaming this page "Western Chinese cuisine" for the same reason I would oppose renaming "American cuisine" as "Western cuisine", or renaming "French cuisine" as "European cuisine". (Not to mention that "Western Chinese cuisine" sounds like cuisine from western China). I'm not opposed to articles about Chinese food elsewhere in the western world, but this page isn't the appropriate place for it. --Yuje 16:51, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Swingbeaver 11h56 Toronto, ON I wrote an article on Canadian Chinese cuisine that I believe is relevant to this discussion. I believe it also sets a precedent for future articles related to German-chinese or British-chinese cuisines, for example (I have never seen Jar-doo chicken wings in the States, not once, and that means I do not get Chinese food when I'm down there). Also, Western culture might be dominated by American culture (debateable) but the two are not synonymous. American culture specifically means culture that has its root in the States, where Western culture has its roots in primarily 1) Ancient Greece and Rome; and secondarily 2) those countries who evolved under the influence of Ancient Greece and Rome.

Hey, I'm back. Anyway, after asking around (in my badly broken Mandarin) and checking around with friends back in the states, it seems that the newer wave of Chinese food in the U.S. seems to be picking a Chinese cuisine type to fit with the tastes of wherever they are. For example, in the Midwest northern Chinese food is more prevalent -- with sweeter dishes and pastries. In Texas, Sichuan with its spiciness was the craze. Nutsy spicy-food-loving Texans. (I couldn't find a Chinese restaurant there that understood "not spicy" on a bet... but I have no problems IN China. How ironic. Language isn't always the barrier.) -- User:Kaerondaes

For what it's worth. I've eaten Chinese food in France, Germany, and Poland. The food in each country was different from what you would find in ordinary Chinese places in the US. I don't really remember the French Chinese, but the German Chinese food which I ate all the time when I lived there was all pretty mild and incorporated some popular German vegetables like white asparragus or German style cabbage. Dishes with lots of egg seemed to be popular in German chinese menus. I've never seen any of the sweet and sour dishes or stuff like Sesame Chicken or General Tso, etc. in Germany. Really low end Chinese in Germany (sold at little food cart type places) consists of variations on a dish called China Pfanne (=China pan) which is flat noodles stir fried with meat (usually a choice of chicken or pork) and vegetables. Many of the people running China Pfanne stands (at least in Berlin) are actually Vietnamese or Cambodians. I only ate Chinese in Poland once and it was REALLY disgusting. This was just after the fall of communism and all of the people working in the place were Polish and the food was just some weird random stuff thrown together with rice and soy sauce. That place made American Mall Food Court Chinese seem like fine dining. --209.181.213.91 01:16, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Re: "Western" versus "American" Chinese cuisine, many Chinese food outlets (especially fast-food style ones) in Ireland offer their entrees served with chips (fries) as a choice other than rice, which you almost certainly would never find in North America...

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I like to think of Americanized Chinese food as being a fusion of cuisines, adapted to use the vegetables and ingredients that are locally available, such as substituting broccoli for kai lan or cabbage for bok choy. And it can be quite good. Ever had stir-fried pork and zucchini with jalapeno peppers? It's quite nice, if you like it spicy. Just last night I made stir-fried tofu and mushrooms with habanero peppers, onions, and bean sprouts, and I liked the result.

I'm not trying to be a wiseguy here, but it seems to me that the general tone of the article makes it sound almost like parts of it were written by some kind of food snob, looking down his long nose at chop suey restaurants. Some of the dishes in them, "authentically Chinese" or no, can be quite good, like the aforementioned jalapeno pepper stir-fry I had last week in a buffet in a little college town in Michigan.

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Edit/Rewrite

I agree that this article needs some major editing. Some parts do seem to suffer from a lack of NPOV (I agree with the "food snob" comment above). I suggest that editors of this page look at the Canadian Chinese cuisine article for inspiration. Cybergoth 13:42, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

"Mu shu purists". Enough said. 208.106.23.83 (talk) 22:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)