From Talk:Ali/Archive1
editThulfeqar's quotes
editA new editor with the username Thufeqar has entered the fray <g> with a list of famous quotes of Ali added to the bottom of the page. While quotes are not a bad idea (I've seen them in other biographical articles) I think having that many is overkill, and borders on using the article for proselytization. How about selecting the best three or four, and then integrating them into the body of the article? Zora 23:24, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- They are completely irrelevant in this article, I have removed them. If someone thinks they are relevant to some person or topic, then consider creating them in the Wikiquotes. --AladdinSE 05:36, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
would AladdinSE please go ahead and remove the entire quote sections from the following articles as well:
Otherwise please restore the quote section.--Zereshk 07:38, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- You might be surprised to know that actually, yes, the quotations in those articles should be moved to Wikiquote which is then inserted as a template-link in the article. For example, see the Ariel Sharon article. When there are a large number of quotations like that, that is the proper procedure, and there are some editors who devote much of their time to "transwikifying" large quotations sections to WikiQuotes and then linking that in the original articles. --AladdinSE 09:45, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
Please make your argument on those respective pages, AFTER you have deleted the quote sections from all those pages.--Zereshk 22:27, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In response to AlladinSE Well Umm, no I do think they are quite relavant. In response to Zora I did not mean to proselytize anything, however if they're that good what can I do? Jokes aside, I do like your idea about choosing three or four qoutes, so I did it, tell me what you think! --Thulfeqar 6:02 AM, 27 Apr 2005
- The quotes are much less overwhelming now. I moved them to follow the para on Ali's eloquence, where they seem like less of an afterthought. Zora 11:40, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Are you serious? Overwhelming, I put four little quotes, at the bottom of the page right before the external links, no on the contrary I believe they complement the article. I mean look at any other great historical figure and they have some sort of quotes. Thulfeqar
Thulfeqar, I can see why you misread my note. The "now" of "much less overwhelming now" is the "now" of "after Thulfeqar's edit. All I did was move the quotes to a better place in the article, where they illustrate the reputation for eloquence. Zora 08:02, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- They do appear to be less unwieldy now. Nevertheless, will someone please provide a source that verifies these as quotations truly from the caliph and not simply attributed to him? A notable and neutral scholarly or journalistic source would be very useful here. --AladdinSE 09:45, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
Once again I don’t see why the quotes have been removed! Check out Richard Nixon, Andrew Jackson, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Herbert Hoover, all of them have quotes regarding the respective individual and non of those require a source, I find I funny how everyone else doesn’t need a source but when it comes to Ali ibn Abu Talib we need sources, but be that as it may, all these quotes are found in Nahjul Balagah (The Peak of Eloquence), there are many online editions of this book and many print editions, take your pick! Thank you! By the way I added an external link to a source http://www.imamalinet.net/en/nahj/nahj.htmlThulfeqar 12:31PM April 30th 2005
Cut
editStriver, why delete my contribution?
editStriver removed my contribution (a quote from Nahjul Balagha), saying it's a Sunni POV. As he mentions in his own comment, it's from a Shia book. How he can even begin to bring up Sunni POV when all the external links are Shia based, I don't know. In fact this article is more Shia POV than Sunni. Striver, don't do it again!
--GNU4Eva 19:06, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Asalam aleikom GNU4Eva.
It was abvious that with that Nahj al-balagha referens you wanted to covertly claim that Ali does not like shias. That is not the case. I do agree with the statement you quoted, and in my POV it is obviously talking about people that deidyfie Ali, like the alawis.
If you insist in qouting that part of Nahj al-Balagha, then also quote this part to balance the POV:
Beware! By Allah the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)[2] dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.
Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his death). I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was pricking in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself.
(ref)
Here is the rest, i add it for your education:
It is strange that during his lifetime he wished to be released from the caliphate but he confirmed it for the other one after his death. No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves. This one put the Caliphate in a tough enclosure where the utterance was haughty and the touch was rough. Mistakes were in plenty and so also the excuses therefore. One in contact with it was like the rider of an unruly camel. If he pulled up its rein the very nostril would be slit, but if he let it loose he would be thrown. Consequently, by Allah people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation.
Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group[4] and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! what had I to do with this "consultation"? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high. One of them turned against me because of his hatred and the other got inclined the other way due to his in-law relationship and this thing and that thing, till the third man of these people stood up with heaving breasts between his dung and fodder. With him his children of his grand-father, (Umayyah) also stood up swallowing up Allah's wealth[5] like a camel devouring the foliage of spring, till his rope broke down, his actions finished him and his gluttony brought him down prostrate.
At that moment, nothing took me by surprise, but the crowd of people rushing to me. It advanced towards me from every side like the mane of the hyena so much so that Hasan and Husayn were getting crushed and both the ends of my shoulder garment were torn. They collected around me like the herd of sheep and goats. When I took up the reins of government one party broke away and another turned disobedient while the rest began acting wrongfully as if they had not heard the word of Allah saying:
That abode in the hereafter, We assign it for those who intend not to exult themselves in the earth, nor (to make) mischief (therein); and the end is (best) for the pious ones.
(Qur'an, 28:83)
Yes, by Allah, they had heard it and understood it but the world appeared glittering in their eyes and its embellishments seduced them. Behold, by Him who split the grain (to grow) and created living beings, if people had not come to me and supporters had not exhausted the argument and if there had been no pledge of Allah with the learned to the effect that they should not acquiesce in the gluttony of the oppressor and the hunger of the oppressed I would have cast the rope of Caliphate on its own shoulders, and would have given the last one the same treatment as to the first one. Then you would have seen that in my view this world of yours is no better than the sneezing of a goat.
(It is said that when Amir al-mu'minin reached here in his sermon a man of Iraq stood up and handed him over a writing. Amir al-mu'minin began looking at it, when Ibn `Abbas said, "O' Amir al-mu'minin, I wish you resumed your Sermon from where you broke it." Thereupon he replied, "O' Ibn `Abbas it was like the foam of a Camel which gushed out but subsided." Ibn `Abbas says that he never grieved over any utterance as he did over this one because Amir al-mu'minin could not finish it as he wished to.)
So, if you want to give some sunni POV ref from Nahj, then dont forget to bring this one to.
Ma salam --Striver 21:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) --Striver 21:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The Initial comment of MOST SHI'A accept Hadrat Hassan as second Imam is true, the Nizari Shi'a have Hadrat Hussein as the second imam.