Talk:2024 Kharkiv offensive/Archive 1

Archive 1

Isn't this premature?

It's been less than a day. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, we don't know yet whether this will be a significant offensive or not --Gimmethegepgun (talk) 15:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Should this page be titled Kharkiv Campaign instead?

In my opinion, the title "2024 Kharkiv Offensive" for this page is not quite accurate. Why?

Because the definition of "Counter Offensive" itself according to Merriam-Webster is "a large-scale military offensive undertaken by a force previously on the defensive". And also, it has not been a full day since this campaign was launched, so the Counteroffensive that is meant is more of a first defense effort. Bukansatya (talk) 16:50, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It should be 2024 Kharkiv offensive, not counteroffensive but it didn't even start for sure. 37.248.161.197 (talk) 17:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Makes more sense. If the name of this page is changed to "2024 Kharkiv Offensive". With that, it can cover many events and battles that may occur in the near future without limiting the content. The page does not only focus on the defensive efforts of Ukrainian forces, but can also cover events such as the battle of Volchansk that are likely to happen soon. Bukansatya (talk) 18:14, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

"Russia began a new wave of offensive actions in this (Kharkiv's) direction. Ukraine met them (Russian forces) there with our troops, brigades, and artillery," Zelensky said during the press briefing with Slovak President Zuzana Caputova in Kyiv.

Source: https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-russia-launches-new-counteroffensive-in-kharkiv-oblast/ (jabz) 18:15, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I've already reviewed the article, and while I appreciate the information presented, I believe there's a slight bias in the framing. Russia initiated an offensive operation that hasn't even been underway for a full day and lacks a dedicated page, while the counteroffensive announced by Zelensky has its own page. In my interpretation, aims to halt Russian advances and prevent them from reaching Ukraine's northernmost defense line. Of course, this is just my perspective, and I'm open to hearing your thoughts as well. Bukansatya (talk) 18:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Too early to call it an offensive

Yeah we have to follow the very reliable mainstream media whatever but we have to at least wait until some times later until the Russian did indeed launch a large scale offensive. This is just one day and even a mainstream media article like this https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2024-05-10/russia-trying-to-break-through-ukraine-defenses-kharkiv-region-zelensky was unsure if it was a large scale attacks or just a feint. Also many media have the habit of proclaiming this and that as a Russian objective and when the Russia didn't actually do it the media claim the Russian failed on achieving it. Too early for this article. Dauzlee (talk) 17:12, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 May 2024

Replace the {{See also|Territorial control during the Russo-Ukrainian War#2024 Kharkiv offensive}} (located in section "Offensive") with {{See also|Territorial control during the Russo-Ukrainian War}} Hoben7599 (talk) 03:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Why though? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 14:03, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Myrealnamm's Alternate Account (talk) 15:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Baltic fleet in Kharkiv?

Is the Russian Baltic Fleet actually engaging in the kharkiv offensive or is that some false info someone edited in the information box? 2A02:8108:9940:24B8:2160:79C0:5E29:F227 (talk) 19:32, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I think someone made a mistake. Bortak42 (talk) 21:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

May have been Naval Infantry units idk RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 03:21, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes it’s correct, the 11th AC (a Coastal Troops formation from East Prussia Kaliningrad Oblast. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 03:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe military infobox guidelines would advise against including higher-order units like the Russian Navy or the Baltic Fleet here. Paging @Cinderella157 for assistance. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 14:31, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Obviously inappropriate because it is misleading - was it all of the Baltic Fleet? I have amended the infobox, though the order of battle isn't in a great state either. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Battle of Vovchansk

@Super Dromaeosaurus: I was editing the Battle of Vovchansk page trying to improve it, then i noticed you put a redirect to this page. Don't you think it's significant enough to have it's own page? I feel like it is similar to the Battle of Balakliia during the 2022 Kharkiv counteroffensive. Some references citing about this battle: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] I Know I'm Not Alone (talk) 18:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

There should be a separate article because this is a battle that could be written about more. Bortak42 (talk) 18:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

We can write more about anything. But not anything should have a page. Super Ψ Dro 18:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

This article has only 1,103 words. The recommended length that an article must have to split another article from it is 6,000–8,000 (see WP:SIZESPLIT). We have way too many people creating way too many articles for random engagements of the war. Have you noticed other wars don't have such long campaignboxes as the one of this war does? [6]. Vovchansk in particular is the largest inhabited place directly affected by this offensive. I don't see why should we split covering fighting in the most important place of this offensive into another article. That strips this article from covering a big part of the scope it is supposed to cover. I invite you to expand this article instead. It is also worth mentioning that the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive, larger in scope and more important so far, does not have any articles on battles in individual villages. Super Ψ Dro 18:43, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, regarding the length of the campaignbox you could also argue this about the creation of pages for every missile strike or bombing. Half of those articles in the campaignbox are not even about battles or offensives in this war, but it does make the campaignbox itself longer. I Know I'm Not Alone (talk) 19:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

You're correct in that, though I think they're supposed to be included. Super Ψ Dro 19:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see anything in Template:Campaignbox/doc indicating that we have to include all of these bombings, it might be worth looking into how much the campaignbox can be shortened if some of the less notable incidents are excluded. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 16:24, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

@SaintPaulOfTarsus: I also agree that such bombings should be removed from the campaign box. They are only relevant for the articles of the places where they occurred (or dedicated bombing compilation articles/templates), but are meaningless for the development/progression of the war. Furthermore, they'll always suffer from selection/omission bias as we know editors are more likely to write more about Russian strikes in Ukraine than Ukrainian strikes in Russia, Donbas and Crimea; reflecting the same omission bias of the Western media. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Same goes to "massacre" links. Which are mostly from the beginning of the war, the peak moment of information warfare. Just keep articles with a battle and territorial change section. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:48, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The battle is seemingly over anyway. Smeagol 17 (talk) 22:47, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

@Super Dromaeosaurus: Do you not think that the Battle of Vovchansk deserves to be a subsection separate from the rest of the timeline? If it isn't going to be a separate article, which I agree that it doesn't have to be, it still seems to be one of the main objectives of this offensive (behind theoretically Kharkiv) and should warrant being separate from the main timeline, as I originally had it so when I copied some content over from the redirected article. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 23:39, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

What about separate it by direction/front, like in the 2023 counteroffensive page? Alexis Coutinho (talk) 00:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

At least for now there is only the two fronts of toward Vovchansk and toward Kharkiv, and it is likely the two directions will connect in the coming days. Vovchansk so far has been seen to be the only real "battle" of the offensive, with the rest being routine village captures (all with populations under 2,000) that have not involved any urban warfare like that seen in Vovchansk, hence why I wanted the main timeline and Vovchansk separate. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 00:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

👍 Alexis Coutinho (talk) 01:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I think we should either have a timeline or divide engagements by geography. Not both at the same time. All battle articles eventually drop the timeline anyway. Super Ψ Dro 07:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I do think engagements should be divided by geography, but as I said it is hard to do now as the two "fronts" will likely merge in the coming days or week and thus the only distinct geographical difference one can make for now is in Vovchansk. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 14:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

By the way, there is a dedicated timeline linked under the Timeline section. Therefore, this article doesn't need to force itself to cover events in chronological order. As such, date subsections would be better displayed as separate paragraphs instead. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 15:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

• The section is the exact same as last time I merged it. I will merge it again if it gets further neglected by editors. It seems editors prefer the timeline for now. Super Ψ Dro 11:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  At this stage, it can simply be a section, and once the battle is over, you can think about a more developed version as an article, but not necessarily. Bortak42 (talk) 11:22, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Timeline Adjustments?

Is it possible rather than doing it by day we should sort it by May 10th-June 1st? SCPdude629 (talk) 20:02, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Is it possible for you to provide any reasons as to why this should be done? SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 22:54, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

If the structure of the article must be adjusted, my preference is to separate it geographically, between events of the Vovchansk area and the Lyptsi area. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 06:52, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Split. I think the dating format for the time being is fine. I just believe it should be generalized. We don't know how long the battle is going to last, and I don't believe it'd be best choice to go day by day after a long enough period of time. What defines long enough, maybe a week and a half? 2 weeks?

I think if we want to keep it the same general format, we either start specifying it by months depending on how long this goes on, or we generalize the content of the article by focusing on major events. Surreal12 (talk) 22:26, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Tatarigami_UA

Tatarigami_UA (a ukranian officer considered a reliable source by Oryx blog among others) recently did a thread debunking an economist article, so i hope this article won't end up as a source here

https://x.com/Tatarigami_UA/status/1792832017807380515 D1d2d3d29 (talk) 09:46, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. 👍 Alexis Coutinho (talk) 23:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Casualty claims

Someone please finally remove these casualty claims, because it's no longer funny. Bortak42 (talk) 10:38, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

It might be better to make that section balanced instead. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 21:08, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Do the Russian MoD’s casualty claims on Telegram refer specifically to the Kharkiv Offensive, or to total losses across Ukraine? I’m not fluent in Russian, and don’t have telegram, so I don’t know. Tomissonneil (talk) 22:47, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

They break it down by sector. For example, in the first section of today's report about the Kharkov region they write:

The losses of the Ukrainian Armed Forces amounted to up to 150 military personnel, a tank, two armored combat vehicles and two cars.
During the counter-battery fight, the following were hit: a 122 mm Grad MLRS combat vehicle, a Polish-made 155 mm Krab self-propelled artillery mount, a 155 mm Bogdan self-propelled artillery mount, and a 122 mm Gvozdika self-propelled artillery mount.
The field ammunition depot of the Ukrainian Armed Forces was destroyed.

which sounds realistic/feasible ngl. I used the browser built-in page translation feature to keep the text formatting. Then the bullet points will split the sections. In the last section in part 2, they give the total material losses:

In total, since the beginning of the special military operation, the following have been destroyed: 601 aircraft, 274 helicopters, 24,271 unmanned aerial vehicles, 522 anti-aircraft missile systems, 16,074 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 1,304 combat vehicles of multiple launch rocket systems, 9,664 field artillery guns and mortars, as well as 21,783 units of special military vehicles.

which isn't what we want though.

Therefore, one could write weekly partials in this sector of the front (not 100% sure if they themselves write weekly partials). Alexis Coutinho (talk) 01:31, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

That’s actually pretty helpful. I’m in favor of the former being added, as it’s pertains to this page, and is from an official Russian source. Tomissonneil (talk) 13:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

👍. Though it would be a hassle to find each report without Telegram. I don't think the ISW links to every report, maybe you're lucky though. Alternatively, one could increment the url id until a report post is found (it never has videos unlike most posts, and it's always long, 2 part and with bullet points). Alexis Coutinho (talk) 17:02, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done. It does write weekly summaries which makes our lives much easier. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 18:00, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Merge the article with Eastern Ukraine campaign

After some time, you may come to the conclusion that the article is too short, too little is happening and these events are not so important that they should have a separate article. They should be included in the article about the Eastern Ukrainian campaign as part of it(section of this article), and not in a separate article. it would be best to merge it.

Completely disagree, Bortak. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 12:34, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

"Capture" vs "recapture"

I know this is small but saying "Russia recaptures" in the infobox makes it sound like they were Russian settlements that were captured and occupied by Ukraine when it was actually the other way around during the 2022 offensive. Cganuelas (talk) 11:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

We cannot always write both precisely and understandable by those with zero background knowledge. Smeagol 17 (talk) 12:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It may make it sound like that, but it still is true that Russia captured them initially and is now capturing them a second time two years later, thus they recaptured them. To anyone who knows that the captured villages are actually in Ukraine it should be obvious that they were not Russian territory prior to 2022. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 12:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

"President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday hailed Russian advances in the Kharkiv region and the recapture of a symbolic town further south that was one of the only prizes of Ukraine's underwhelming counteroffensive last summer".[7] Mellk (talk) 03:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

• I've written "reoccupies" instead. This in my view fixes the issue. Super Ψ Dro 10:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  It's less neutral though... Alexis Coutinho (talk) 16:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think it's less neutral. I think it's precise enough to get the point across to the reader that....

  "Hey, some villages were and are taken back by the Russians because of this or that" versus @Cganuelas's point. Just helps make it more direct in that the Russians have in fact taken back that territory. Surreal12 (talk) 22:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  What is the terminology used by most sources? I tend to see capture/recapture used. This probably makes more sense since the settlements were taken by force rather than troops simply appearing to occupy the settlement. Mellk (talk) 09:26, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  Good point. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 11:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  That's a fair point, and I can agree with you here. Recapture just...I'm not sure how to explain it. But you're right regarding "taken by force". Surreal12 (talk) 19:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)