Help talk:Maintenance template removal

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Sports NoteEdit

Also When It's Offical — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:02, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Wiki commentEdit

Here's a talk section for you to use for your grievances against my edits., User:Debresser. Enjoy. Now stop reverting my edits with no discussion. CapnZapp (talk) 09:38, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

The edit you refer to is your addition, at the beginning and end of the header for this talkpage, of the following text:
<!--- Why is this box here? See Help_talk:Maintenance_template_removal/Archive_1#Actual_policy? --->
If that is an issue you want to raise, then the way to do that is not by adding comments, but by opening a discussion on this talkpage. Which I hereby invite you to do. Debresser (talk) 16:34, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
You were the one that reverted me, with the edit summary 1. If you have this question, raise it on the talkpage, don't through comment on the page. 2. I don't understand the point. So first and foremost, don't revert what you don't understand. Instead ask.
That said, thank you for finally engaging in discussion. Now that you have "invited" me to answer the question, I will: I am not asking a question. I have no issues. Have you heard of rhetorical questions, Debresser?
What I did was simply to add a link into the talk archive for those wondering why the tbox was there. It is a non-standard box, and some editor that hasn't read the background (as explained in the talk archive) might be tempted to remove it. So I thought would be helpful to pre-emptively add a wiki editor comment to stave off any such attempts - or rather, add the ability to ask said editor "didn't you read the talk discussion linked to by the wiki comment before deleting?"
So, in all: I have no questions. Nothing is unclear to me. So I did not feel any particular need to discuss, so I didn't start any talk discussion. Adding wiki comments directed at our fellow editors isn't a new practice - I've seen it on plenty of articles. (So far you haven't contested the usage, but I felt I should clarify that I do know what I'm doing).
In the future, don't force others to start talk page discussions about subjects you don't understand, please. We can't be expected to spend time explaining everything we do. And no, asking in an edit summary isn't good enough - that places the burden of setting up the discussion (which is the only good option, since answering with an edit summary of one's own is **not** a good alternative) on someone else. You have a question, you start a talk discussion. Simple.
In fact, for the future I suggest you start to assume a little more good faith. Try politely asking why a particular edit in question was made. And asking while reverting is not polite, by the way. You might find you get much better results from your time here on Wikipedia :)
Now then. Now you hopefully know my intent for the wiki comment and if not, just ask further. Feel free to further improve it. Perhaps you want to rephrase to avoid the question? Just as long as you don't simply negate my intent I will probably appreciate your improvement.
Have a nice day, CapnZapp (talk) 10:10, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
There is no need for the comment. Talkpages often have all kind of boxes at their beginning. Accordingly, i removed it again.
Why should I assume good faith when an editor is being disruptive and insists on restoring his edit time after time, despite apparent opposition. This in clear disregard of the rules of the game as outlines in [WP:BRD]]? Debresser (talk) 16:58, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
No, Debresser - reverting without more reason than "I don't understand it" is not enough, as you did the first time, setting off this cycle of reverts. You need to actually explain your reasons for opposing an edit. Assuming the other editor made a mistake is one thing, but you're not helping by simply reverting what you think are mistakes. You mistook my edit for a misplaced talk question, remember.
Moving on - I'm sure you agree "no need" is not reason enough for this to go away. Please be more specific. What harm does the comment do? I added it to help other editors. If you believe it doesn't then explain how so we can constructively move forward. CapnZapp (talk) 18:32, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
Well, there we disagree. I don't need to understand your point to know that you made it in the wrong place.
We have already constructively moved forwards and removed the comment. You have stated that you have no issue. So I think we're done here, no? Debresser (talk) 23:11, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
Suggesting the negation of my work is constructive or that I don't have an issue with your reverts are bad faith arguments which I need you to stop doing right now. Understand that I was making no "point". I am adding a helpful editor pointer into the archive. I placed it right where I wanted it: where it is supposed to go. Your disagreement is not enough of an argument, especially since you show little sign of actually understanding my intentions here. Since you reverted my effort, I ask that you either explain how I can improve my contribution or come up with an acceptable suggestion yourself. CapnZapp (talk) 09:22, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
I understand you very well, thank you. Do not make the mistake of confusing my disagreement for misunderstanding.
You comment in not needed. Not to mention that it is ambiguous (unclear). I therefore see no reason to make any suggestions whatsoever. Debresser (talk) 11:20, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
This is the first time you have even approached addressing the issue. You are noted for having wasted my time until now. You have been consistently unhelpful and generally negative, so if you would like to change tack and actually provide constructive feedback that would be much appreciated. Finally you have something to say about my actual contribution - you say it is "ambiguous (unclear)". In what way? What can I do to improve it?
PS. I have never claimed the comment was needed. I am claiming it is helpful. You not liking it is not reason enough for me to abandon my effort to be helpful. CapnZapp (talk) 16:30, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
The comment is neither needed, nor helpful, nor is it customary to have comments for templates. I would seriously advise to simply drop the whole idea.
And please drop the personal attacks as well. I have not been negative: I have disagreed with you, and I have had to deal with an editor (you), who ignored good editing rules and tried to restore his comment some four or five times (!) before finally taking it to this talkpage. Sorry if you feel disagreeing with you is being negative, and sorry if you feel my assessment of you as disruptive is unjustified. Debresser (talk) 21:54, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
What's at stake here is you opposing the idea sufficiently to revert my addition. I do not agree my addition is unhelpful. I have never claimed it is needed. I have already stated editor comments do appear once in a while (see for instance the comments on this page.
Now, for the umpteenth time I ask that you seriously engage in constructive consensus-building. Argue why the quality of this talk page would drop by linking editors to the talk page discussion pertinent to the non-standard tbox. Either do that or I would seriously advise you to simply drop your unjustified opposition to what was meant to be a very quick and small edit.
Once you have dropped your stonewalling revert-only attitude, I would invite you to suggest improvements to how to best phrase said comment or otherwise implement my intent. CapnZapp (talk) 10:52, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
I have seen such an editor before, who insists I stop stonewalling and explain myself, all the while completely ignoring that I am not stonewalling rather disagreeing and that I have already explained my wo reasons to oppose your edit. Since there are no other editors here who feel in need of further explanations, or discussions for that matter, I draw the conclusion that it is you who has to bare the burden of proof, and has not done so. Debresser (talk) 20:58, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Don't be absurd. Burden of proof - what does that even mean? You say you have explained your reasons, but you really haven't. You're saying it is not "needed" as if helpful instructions must be necessary before they're added. So that's no reason. You're saying it is not helpful, but you aren't explaining yourself in a way that allows me to improve my addition. So that's no reason. Finally you said you didn't understand it. But your reaction haven't been to ask for help. Instead you revert what you don't understand. I still have no idea how to further my idea in a way that is mutually agreeable to both of us. So no Debresser, offering proof to someone who essentially is just saying they don't like it, is a fool's errand and I won't have it.
I made a small (tiny even) addition I thought helpful. I will be adding it once more. I trust you will leave it be now that I have emphatically stated you have no case and no arguments. Before you revert me, consider that I have given you every opportunity to justify this reversion. You have had many chances to actually demonstrate how the addition is hurting the page or its quality. You have had your chance of arguing in good faith, by being specific and by being constructive. You have squandered them all. CapnZapp (talk) 08:58, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
I have explained the reasons for my revert. You have failed to point out the necessity of the comment. A contested recent edit for which no support can be shown, must go. I ask you to stop being disruptive. Debresser (talk) 22:10, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
I don't need to prove to you an edit is necessary. No wiki comment can ever be necessary. They're just comments. They have no impact on the page and aren't even seen by readers. I have no hopes of ever convincing you of the worth of this edit, since you have consistently shown zero interest in actually engaging in constructive dialog. CapnZapp (talk) 10:45, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

  3O Response: If there is a question of whether the text box at the top of this talk page is appropriate, it is reasonable to discuss the question here. There is no reason to pose the question in a wiki comment as it makes more sense to have the discussion on the talk page itself, since that is what the page is designed for. Wiki comments aren't good places to have discussions. Although it might be reasonable to pose a question in a wiki comment where it is meant rhetorically for some editor to consider in context, it should be expected that any dispute over the original text box or the wiki comment pertaining to the text box should be discussed here in the talk page. In short, don't edit war over this. Leave the wiki comment out of the text box simply because the appropriateness of the comment itself is disputed. The question should be discussed here. I'm not saying such as comment is necessarily wrong. It doesn't matter if it's wrong. Maybe there is not right or wrong here. The point is that disputes should be handled in the talk page. In my opinion, with respect, this debate is not very productive. I would suggest both editors here disengage. Delete the comment. Stop the discussion. Move on to something else that's more important. I'm not being snarky. With all sincerity, I don't believe this discussion is worth continuing - I would just part as, well, fellow wiki editors, and move on. That's the best advice I can give you. (talk) 08:42, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

  Response to third opinion request:
It has been suggested that my previous response was less than helpful. Let me try again. First and foremost I recommend editors focus on content and not behavior. It's unproductive to spar, and it's hard for third parties to follow the disagreement when most of the discussion is about behavior instead of the issue at hand. Second, I believe this issue is about whether to include the wiki comment pertaining to the notice on this talk page. Please see guidance at MOS:COMMENT. There is a tradeoff between helping other editors with warnings vs. cluttering the source for other editors. In this case I weigh on the side of removing the comment as unnecessary clutter. It seems this is intended as a preventative measure instead of a remedial one. If in the future, it appears that editors are making changes contrary to prior consensus, a wiki comment explaining this might be helpful. For now, I'd just leave it out. Coastside (talk) 16:18, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
I find your comments (first and second) clear and helpful, and am happy to note that they coincide with my take on this issue. Debresser (talk) 20:06, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Dedicated section for remarkEdit

Hi, I am receiving this message while trying to update Jocelyn pook's wikipedia page, "This biography of a living person needs additional citations for verification. Please help by adding reliable sources. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous or harmful. Find sources: "Jocelyn Pook" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR (October " I have entered several different citaions from respectful sources, could you please let me know what to do next? Thanks Elifnurk (talk) 14:47, 28 October 2019 (UTC)elifnurk

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