Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball/Archive 10

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Infobox highlights

There's an IP editor at Zach Edey who has twice moved Big Ten tournament MVP ahead of his All-Big Ten entries. I don't see that as the norm from a sampling of the other Big Ten winners, nor do I recall that ordering with other conferences. My suggestion would be to move the tourney MVP after All-Big Ten and All-Defensive, which I believe is the de facto standard also. —Bagumba (talk) 03:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support Bagumba's proposal. I wasn't sure if there was ever a formal discussion about the listing priority of that honor, but it's always been placed at the very bottom of all college honors. It's notable and infobox-worthy, but it's a far cry from being more important than being all-conference or all-defensive teams. SportsGuy789 (talk) 03:49, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Support this proposal. I'm also not sure if there's ever been a formal discussion, but this seems like as good of a reason as any to have it, and I agree with everything that's been said so far. fuzzy510 (talk) 04:49, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support - How about we codify the de facto standard order of college highlights:

1. National title
2. Final Four MOP
3. National POY
4. Other National honors/All-American
5. Conference POY
6. Conference specialty awards (DPOY, FOY, etc.)
7. All-Conference
8. Conference specialty teams (all-defensive, all-freshman, etc.)
9. Conference tourney MVP
10. retired number

Would be good to just spell these out. Not sure why anyone would make a big deal of moving the conference tourney MVP up but that is what we have. Rikster2 (talk) 12:36, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

User:Rikster2 can you extend the list into High school accomplishments Parade AA, McDAAG, Jordan Brand Classic, State Mr. Basketball, National Mr. Basketball, Which High school NPoYs, High school national championship, Which HS ASG MVPs. I am not sure which even belong and which don't. E.g., it Seems McDAAG and McDAAG MVP are generally included, but Jordan Brand, not so much. Also, do any of the following belong:

• Jordan Brand Classic
• McDonald's National Player of the Year
• Gatorade National Player of the Year
• USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year

-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:03, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Jordan Brand Classic has generally not been listed. Not sure, but is it limited to Nike players? At any rate, it doesn't seem to get much mainstream attention. —Bagumba (talk) 06:27, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

It is usually just about all the MCDAAG players plus 2 since Jordan uses 13 man rosters and MCDAAG uses 12. I seem to see it in a lot of infoboxes, but I am not sure if it belongs. I don't understand the meaning of a Nike high school player.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:42, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

I wasnt sure if HS players already had informal affiliations with Nike, and were the ones that they picked for game. —Bagumba (talk) 04:15, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Shore companies steer players to certain games: "But in the late 1990s, as top shoe companies such as Adidas and Nike began to push top players from AAU teams they sponsored to certain all-star games...Nearly all of the top players in the Jordan game came up through programs or teams sponsored by Nike."[1] "He said shoe-company alliances are one of the biggest hurdles to securing players. “They’d tell them, ‘You’re a Reebok guy, you’re not playing in the Nike game,’ ” Corrigan said. “There’s pressure from AAU coaches and other people to steer you to certain games."[2] —Bagumba (talk) 06:17, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I'd move "6. Conference specialty awards" after all-conference. Being one of the top overall players is more notable than being the top of some niche. FOY and all-freshman I'd leave on bottom, before retired numbers. Then, that would generally be consistent with the NBA honors at WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS.—Bagumba (talk) 06:24, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

I have no objection to this. Rikster2 (talk) 13:28, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - I think it would be wise to also spell out what is NOT included in infobox highlights - player of the week/month (at any level), all-tournament team (at any level), NCAA tournament regional MOP (college), All-District (college), preseason awards (at any level, includes NBA Summer League), in season tournament championships/MVP (college - example Great Alaska Shootout), conference championships for players (college), All-American honors from non-consensus teams (college), awards from unofficial sources (for example, college conference awards not codified by the conference itself). Rikster2 (talk) 23:19, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

• Agree with every one of those specific examples of what's not to be included. SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:40, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

college conference awards not codified by the conference @Rikster2: Do you mean like media awards that are not also in conference media guides? Like the Big 10 publishes media-voted honors, but Pac-12 does not (e.g. AP) —Bagumba (talk) 00:50, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes. For example, the AP names All-ACC teams, but they are not the official ones that the conference recognizes. This past year they named a different POY than the conference. Rikster2 (talk) 01:16, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

• What about National statistical champion, Conference statistical champions, National records, Conference records.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:38, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
  • National stat champion (for a major category) should be in there somewhere. Conference stat champ no (based on precedent and frankly impact). Records need to be discussed. My preference would not be to have them at all since it just creates updating issues, but if they are we need some guidance on them. Personally I would say national records only in the infobox if we keep them. Rikster2 (talk) 14:47, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

  No for conference-related, as they are not defining. I'd say no on records, as AA and awards are the most defining. Really, only MLB has a history with specific records and recognizable numbers (too much dead time during broadcasts); for other sports, it's trivial. —Bagumba (talk) 00:44, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

• Comment should postseason invitational tournament championships and MVPs (ie: NIT champion, CBI MVP) be included? I am okay with leaving championships out for players but would not be opposed to keeping MVPs. Best, GPL93 (talk) 23:32, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support keeping NIT MVP, CBI MVP etc. for the player and excluding the overall championship. SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:36, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

I also support this. Rikster2 (talk) 16:58, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

In the "less is more" spirit of MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, I'd say leave out these titles and MVPs. Not that defining (save for early NITs, but I don't think we have a definitive cutoff of when it was supplanted by NCAA tourney). —Bagumba (talk) 00:36, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

• Question – what about the statistic in Markquis Nowell's infobox that shows he has the NCAAT single-game assists record? I'm 50/50 on that, I can see arguments for both keeping and removing it... SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:50, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
  • I saw it and my impulse is to remove it, but I didn't because I don't remember a consensus discussion (or any discussion) about records in the infobox. My take on all records is they should not be in the infobox but should be in the prose of the article. In some cases (like Pete Maravich) the record is significant enough that it should go in the lead. Rikster2 (talk) 16:58, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

High school highlights

WP:CBBALL nor WP:NBA has ever considered high school highlights to be notable for infobox purposes unless it was a state level award (e.g. Mr. or Miss Basketball) or a national honor or award (e.g. McDonald's AA). I removed " Peoria Journal Star Player of the Year (Big-School)" from Max Bielfeldt's article because of these WikiProjects' precedent, but also because in the grand scheme of notable achievements I don't personally feel that a city's newspaper POY at the high school level is infobox-worthy. User:TonyTheTiger then re-added it (improper formatting notwithstanding) and is now trying to cite 2 other cherry-picked, random articles that have city newspaper awards as precedent – both of which Tony himself added, acting now as if there were some pre-existing consensus ([3][4])). In fact, User:Rikster2, like myself, have been removing these when we happen to see them (Rikster2 example). Tony is known to junk up infoboxes with superfluous honors - see Rikster2 diff for the others - and it's time we lay down the official consensus once and for all.

• I think cherrypicked would be a misstatement. I was showing longstanding articles that I have created where the included content seemed stable.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:55, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

My proposal is to include only the high school state level and national level awards/honors explicitly mentioned in the above conversation of this thread and remove the rest. Everyone else - thoughts? SportsGuy789 (talk) 21:44, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

High school highlights should be VERY limited. I would recommend keeping it to state Mr/Miss Basketball, McDonalds All-American, Parade All-American and MAJOR NPOY (like Gatorade, but not the Gatorade State winners). I think high school national championships should be discussed since they are mostly “mythical” and I would want to understand the level of consensus for any included. Rikster2 (talk) 23:09, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

For the NPOYs at List of U.S. high school basketball national player of the year awards, the ones I think that have generally been in ibxs are Gatorade, Mr. Basketball USA, Naismith. Parade was historically a big deal, but until there's an existing page, I wouldn't bother cluttering the ibx with it if there a lot of other items already.—Bagumba (talk) 05:28, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

• I agree with Rikster2's list. I also agree that HS national championships should not be included given the variance in how they are awarded and tournaments such as the GEICO national championship are essentially invitationals where "basketball factory" prep schools (like Monteverde and Oak Hill) play each other. Best, GPL93 (talk) 23:23, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Relevant TfD

I have made a batch nomination of templates used to create List of current NCAA Division I women's basketball coaches that I'd love the project's input on. The discussion in question is listed here. Thanks! fuzzy510 (talk) 07:31, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

McDonalds U.S. All-Stars vs. McDonalds All-Americans

While creating Curtis Aiken, I noticed a lot of press that described Aiken as a MCDAA. User:Bagumba and User:Rikster2 have helped me verify that the press has mischaracterized his All-Star status. I am wondering if there are any athletes whose press has mischaracterized their status. I imagine it is possible that in the early years of the MCDAAG, if McDonald's was the sponsor of the Capital Classic, the players who are McDonalds Capital Classic U.S. All-Stars may have had similarly confusing press. Should we take time to determine what years McDonalds sponsored the Capital Classic, which is now in its 50th year and make sure that there are not any other similar proliferations of the error that have made it onto WP.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:21, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

I certainly don't think anybody would stop you if you wanted to do that (myself included), but I doubt we'll turn up much, and I definitely wouldn't say it's close to the highest priority task we have, either. fuzzy510 (talk) 05:12, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

In the process of creating Capital Classic (all-star game), I found that in 1977, there was also 60 McD AAs named at the local level, then 15 of those were chosen, who we would generally think of as the first "McDonalds All-Americans", for the Capital Classic game.[5]—Bagumba (talk) 12:51, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

McDonald's All-American Game

In 1983 was there any form of recognition other than 1983 McDonald's All-American Boys Game for which one could be termed a McDonald's All-American or is such a claim clearly false?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:17, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

• For clarification, I am trying to assess the claims at [6], [7] and [8].-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:22, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
  • E.g., there is the McDonald's All-American Game#Morgan_Wootten_National_Player_of_the_Year and {{McDonald's All-American Game Boys MVP}}. I am trying to understand a possible confusion.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:40, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
• Curtis Aiken was a senior in high school the same year that I was in Western New York. So my interest in him is the same as any of you might have in the person who was the Player of the Year in your city the year you were a senior in high school. So I am assessing his notability.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:23, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
• I have traced back the earliest confusion of his being a MCDAAG to an April 14, 1983 Philadelphia Inquirer story "OWLS GET PUBLIC LEAGUE MVP BLACKWELL" with the following text: "Curtis Aiken, 5-11 guard who averaged 36 points a game last season for Bennett High School in Buffalo, N.Y., to Pittsburgh. Aiken had made a verbal commitment in March to attend Kansas, but the firing of coach Ted Owens threw the Jayhawks' recruiting into turmoil and they lost Aiken. Aiken was a Parade Magazine third team all-America, USA Today third team all-America and McDonalds' all-America. He was New York co-player of the year."-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:33, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
  • That was a very fluffy account because we have him as a 4th team Parade All-America Boys Basketball Team.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:41, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
  • Although we only have Mr. New York Basketball back to 1987, I also doubt he was co-anything with Pearl Washington that year.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:43, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
  • He was in another McDonalds' sponsored game, the McDonalds Capital Classic in DC.[9][10] Aiken himself is quoted in Feb 24, 1983, saying that he made the McD AA.[11] Not sure if it was a mixup or embellishment. —Bagumba (talk) 02:31, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
• I did a cursory search on Aiken on newspapers.com. I am convinced he was selected for the McDonald's game but it looks like he did not appear in it. Could be an injury or other commitment kept him out. I did not have time to run it down, but somebody else could pick up the baton and see what they can find given that the date of the 1983 game is in the Wikipedia article. Rikster2 (talk) 17:02, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
  • Actually, found a roster announcement and he was not on it. Not sure what the deal is. Rikster2 (talk) 17:09, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

    At the time, players were only allowed to play in 2 ASGs. He also played in the Dapper Dan, so technically he shouldn't have played a 3rd game w/ McD AA. So I'm skeptical he was even selected an McD AA, unless we find more definitive formal announcements, or see if he'll comment on social media on what happened. —Bagumba (talk) 00:07, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

• @Rikster2 and Bagumba: see latest version of Curtis Aiken.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:11, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

  I personally wouldn't have the "not to be confused with..." note if other sources haven't noted the confusion, but that's me. I did add a footnote explaining the conflict. I've ruled out him being invited and somehow backing out, as a McDonald's-published roster doesn't list him, but shows others (marked with asterisk) who didn't play but are still recognized by them as AAs [12] —Bagumba (talk) 11:08, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

  • Due to the vast amount of incorrect press, we need to give users information in a manner that they can find. If I heard he had press supporting a MCDAAG claim and doubted it, I would want to be able to understand the point of confusion. This is a very odd situation to need to clarify. My problem is that the other sources are not pointing out confusion, just false information.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:26, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

    I've started a new thread on this topic for broader input.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:27, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

• Aiken and Mugsy Bogues played in at least 3 of the same ASGs that year so I don't know about the 2 ASG limit.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:13, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

2023 NCAA Division I women's basketball tournament v. 2023 NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament

Have we ever taken a look at how differently the 2023 NCAA Division I women's basketball tournament and 2023 NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament articles are laid out.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:18, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

There's a lot of standardization issues with the tournament articles as a whole. Check out some of the older women's tournament articles, and it gets......dire. I think we could maybe stand to come up with a preferred layout for tournament articles, with the knowledge that people are going to be all over them for about a month each year. -fuzzy510 (talk) 02:02, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

What is an official upset, according to the NCAA?

I just finished up the outline I was going to go with for my overhaul of the NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament upsets article, with the assumption that the NCAA's official definition of upsets was marked by a difference of 5 seed lines.

However, I went to 2023 NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament#Upsets, and... suddenly the definition is 2 seed lines there. I don't know if this is an official change or not though, because it's just based on one article, albeit on ncaa.com; there is a disclaimer at the bottom stating "The views on this page do not necessarily reflect the views of the NCAA or its member institutions.". The latest definition in the Men's Final Four Records Book states that it is 5 seed lines, but this book isn't updated for the 2023 tournament, so it's probably dated before the ncaa.com article.

Either way, there's an inconsistency somewhere here, so one of these is going to have to change. I would think we just wait for the Final Four book to update and in the meantime go with the 5 seed line definition, but I'd like to gauge opinions here. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 22:50, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree with not taking this one article, which is written by somebody who is not part of the NCAA, over the standard set from the Final Four record book. fuzzy510 (talk) 23:09, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Relevant page-move requests

There are requested move discussions currently ongoing for the following pages in the project's purview:

• Paul Mills (basketball)
• Andy Kennedy (basketball)
• Leon Rice (basketball)

Please feel free to weigh in if you have any thoughts. Thanks! fuzzy510 (talk) 19:26, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I just realized this

I have recently been creating a few of my hometown heroes WP pages (Curtis Aiken, Ray Hall (basketball) and Lester Rowe). I may have played pickup basketball with all of these guys. On occasion, I would try to get next at Delaware Park–Front Park System, which was the playground that Clifford Robinson (basketball, born 1966) played at during the summer when he was in the NBA. I don't know any of the other guys that use to hang out at this park, but I bet the guys that I am creating articles for in these past few weeks are among the guys. Probably not as big a deal as getting run with Barack Obama, but I am just realizing that I may have played (or at least tried to) with some of these guys.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:51, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Nick Macarchuk

I have never seen a coach with a Coach of the Year award for a losing season before. I could not decide if my edits were correct at Nick Macarchuk for his 1999 A10 CotY award. I saw the template on his page and added it to his infobox. Then I thought it was a mistake and must have been Nicky, Jr. (who is in my own personal all-time top 5 basketball stories list). Then I decided it was right.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:27, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, he won A10 COY with a losing record. Here is a source you can use. Rikster2 (talk) 13:27, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Also, for weird award recognition you can’t beat Steve Vacendak of Duke being named 1966 ACC Player of the Year despite being voted second-team all-conference. I doubt that happened before or since. Rikster2 (talk) 13:32, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

I have noticed that there is some sort of politicking for ACC POY. It seems that often someone else from the conference gets higher All-American points than the POY.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:06, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Tyus Jones stats

Well it is official. The vastly underrated and fundamentally sound Tyus Jones has led the league in Assists/Turnover for the 5th year in a row (https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-stat/assist-to-turnover-ratio), Steals/Foul for a 4th year in a row (https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-stat/steals-per-foul), defensive plays/foul for a 3rd year in a row (https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-stat/defensive-plays-per-foul). I think he also excels in steals/turnover ratio, but can't find that stat. Can I use https://www.teamrankings.com/ as a WP:RS?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:34, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:39, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Vacated appearances as part of a school's appearance count

Going over past years' NCAA tournament articles, there doesn't appear to be any consensus on whether vacated NCAA tournament appearances count as part of a team's appearance count. Take the 2016 article, which counts that as UConn's 33rd appearance, which counts their 1996 vacated appearance. Then there's this year's tournament, which counts Louisiana with nine appearances, and ignores the two vacated appearances from the 1970s.

I'm of the opinion that ignoring the vacated appearances is correct, but as I plan to comb through some of the older NCAA tournament articles this offseason, I wanted to make sure that was the consensus before I start changing things one way or the other. -fuzzy510 (talk) 18:48, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Mass-TfD college baseball navboxes nomination

For those in this WikiProject interested, since it is a sibling project: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2023 April 11#College baseball class-/position-specific award navboxes. Thank you. SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:02, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

NBA Play-In Tournament stats

Do NBA Play-In Tournament stats count or are they like the preseason to the NBA playoffs?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:21, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Really a question for WP:NBA but I believe they are treated like other playoff stats. Check previous years for guidance. Rikster2 (talk) 00:57, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Possible renaming of the Robert V. Geasey Trophy

According to Penn's recent press release about Jordan Dingle being named the Philadelphia Big 5's player of the year, the award is no longer named the Robert V. Geasey Trophy and is just the Big 5 Player of the Year. It's possible that the name change occurred as they now also name a player of the year for the best women's player as well, but I can't find anything outside of the press release referring to the name change. Should the namespace be moved over to Philadelphia (?) Big 5 Player of the Year? Best, GPL93 (talk) 21:49, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Also it's likely that a separate section needs to be added for the women's Big 5 Player of the Year winners. Best, GPL93 (talk) 21:53, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to renaming it "Philadelphia Big 5 Player of the Year", since the trophy itself is just the award (not the honor). 16:25, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Red Auerbach

Red Auerbach has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:19, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Foster Loyer career free throw percentage

Foster Loyer concluded his career with 298–323 (92.26%) in 146 NCAA games and 244–263 (92.78%) in 60 (Davidson/A-10) games. Both percentages surpass Davidson's career leaders and qualify per criteria in the Davidson Wildcats 2022–23 Fact Book, but the 2023-24 book will not be available for another 6 months or so. I.e., he is the Davidson career leader, but publication is pending. I do not see any pub right now, but we know it is coming. The percentage is high enough to be in the top 25 list for the NCAA record book, but he does not meet the eligibility criteria 300 free throws made and 2.5 FT made per game for his NCAA career, which is a reasonably notable thing to state, but the list will not be published in the new annual record book for another 6 months or so. It is not clear to me whether the A-10 career or the NCAA career would be presented in the A-10 media guide which was last put in the public domain for the 2019–20 season. He would qualify one way and not qualify the other (min 2.5 FT/game). Again, either way, I would mention its inclusion or exclusion based on the next publication, which will eventually come. User:The ed17 views inclusion of the content before the anticipated publications premature without any other source. Thoughts?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:09, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

There's no verifiable source, which means it would be WP:OR. Yes, it's premature, I agree with User:The ed17. And if it isn't so important that Davidson itself is bothering to put out any verifying information about it, I don't think it's remotely important enough that we have to move heaven and earth to include it six months early. -fuzzy510 (talk) 01:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I'd go so far as saying if an independent source doesn't deem it worthy of mention, it's trivial (if not OR) to place random tidbits out of record books. —Bagumba (talk) 05:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

College stat tables needed for upcoming DYKs

I have a bunch of articles queueing up for DYK that need stat tables: Rick Suder, Max Bielfeldt, Curtis Aiken, Fletcher Loyer, Ray Hall (basketball), Matt Hicks (basketball) and Lester Rowe.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:48, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

• The following articles are currently in this week's DYK queue without college stats: Ray Hall (basketball) (April 22), Matt Hicks (basketball) (April 23).
• The following articles are approved for DYK main page presentation in the coming weeks without college stats: Fletcher Loyer and Lester Rowe.
• The following articles have been nominated for a few weeks and should be approved soon for DYK main page presentation without college stats: Rick Suder, Max Bielfeldt, Curtis Aiken, David Webber (basketball) and Hanna Cavinder.
• The following articles appeared in DYK on the main page in the last month without college stats: Bob Scrabis (basketball) and Kenny Williams (basketball, born 1972).--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:06, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I have tried to ping User:Lanternofdiogenes who helped me last time (with David DeJulius and Foster Loyer), but the only article he has edited in the last 2 weeks has been 2023–24 Cincinnati Bearcats men's basketball team. I don't know who else to ping directly-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:30, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Conference Player of the Year article effort – progress update

Time for an annual progress update. The following CPOY templates are complete: A-10, American South, ACC, America East, AAC, American West, Big 12, Big East, Big Eight, Big South, Big Ten, CAA, C-USA, East Coast, Great Midwest, Great West, Horizon, Metro, Midwestern, MVC, Mountain West, Pac-12, Patriot, SEC, SoCon, SWAC, SWC, West Coast, and WAC.

Below are the number of articles needed to complete the rest:

• ASUN → 13
• Big Sky → 12
• Big West → 9
• Conference USA → 1
• Gulf Star → 2
• Ivy → 11

• MAAC → 8
• Mid-American → 8
• MEAC → 13
• NEC → 10
• OVC → 12
• Southland → 11

• Summit → 6
• Sun Belt → 5
• SWAC → 1
• WAC → 1

Since last check-in, we've completed the East Coast Conference and Southwest Conference pages, and knocked out about 10 random articles spanning the other pages. We're getting closer every month to completing this high-priority task, but we've still got a ways to go. Keep up the good work. SportsGuy789 (talk) 23:11, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. I may be ready to re-engage with article creation and have a few CPOY players on my articles to create list. Rikster2 (talk) 00:41, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Just a note that currently there are 11 additional CPOYs for 2023 who do not have articles. Rikster2 (talk) 14:19, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Darrick Suber

There's only one player I'm interested in claiming at the moment, NEC POY Darrick Suber (1993), if that's ok. Everyone else is a "welp, we'll have to make the article eventually"-level interest to me. SportsGuy789 (talk) 17:42, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Bob Scrabis (basketball)

I've done Bob Scrabis (basketball) (help welcome expanding it) since I was a Princeton Cheerleader during his freshman season, I feel the connection. I don't know if this is my last because you could probably rope me into a Chicago (DePaul, Northwestern, Loyola, UIC, Chicago State) player if any remain.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:16, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

• If anyone can see behind the NYTimescom paywall, I could use some author names for 2 articles for Bob Scrabis (basketball).--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:49, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

  @TonyTheTiger: I updated them. They were both from AP w/ no author. BTW, use |url-access= to mark refs requiring subscriptions.—Bagumba (talk) 14:35, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

• Also need help with one Washingtonpost.com paywall.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:05, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
• User:DaHuzyBru, Can you find any international experience for this subject.-19:26, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
• @DaHuzyBru:--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:00, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Nothing on eurobasket for this guy. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:02, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Kenny Williams (UIC basketball) now Kenny Williams (basketball, born 1972)

Thanks Tony. Kenny Williams (UIC basketball) is missing from the Summit League list (obviously if you found a birth year create in using that). Rikster2 (talk) 12:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

User:Rikster2, I'll surely give Williams a shot.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:29, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Any idea why our Kenny Williams is not listed here?

Wait I see him as Illinois-Chicago.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:10, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

No birthdate yet, but he went to Lyons Township High School (class of 1990) and shared the backcourt with a John Hornacek. Same high school as Jeff Hornacek (class of 82), whose father is named John.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:28, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Unable to find Birthdate. Currently at Kenny Williams (UIC basketball). Welcome to move to Kenny Williams (basketball, born c. 1972), since his senior year was 1990. I defer to the expertise of others on the prefered location. Anyone who knows what is best can then list him at Kenny Williams.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:15, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Also this non-RS claims he played 10 years of international pro ball including Spain. I am not an international BB researcher.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:18, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

• See if user:DaHuzyBru can help you. If he finds a pro record he may see a birthdate as well. Rikster2 (talk) 15:17, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

There is a usbasket.com profile that matches the details in the wiki article. There is no full birthdate but it does list 1972 and "Full name: Kendall Ovial Williams". DaHuzyBru (talk) 23:31, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Is Kendall Ovial Williams behind a paywall that I can not see?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:07, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

User:DaHuzyBru, User:Rikster2 If you guys are pointing me to that, should I assume it is reliable enough to move his article to Kenny Williams (basketball, born 1972)?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:09, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

This 2007 source says "35-year-old point guard Kenny Williams", so 1972 is probably accurate. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:30, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Here are some old profiles I have found on him [13] [14] [15]. They all have conflicting day and month, but 1972 appears consistent. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

User:DaHuzyBru any chance you could jump in on the infobox (and prose, i guess) for this guy. I am out of my depth.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:24, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

User:DaHuzyBru, thanks for the assistance. I am a bit confused on the two sources that we have for birthdate. I don't see either Turk Telekom or Asseco Gdynia in the infobox chronology. I also thought I saw a Polish League all-star somewhere on a link you have sent.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:33, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I can't verify the Turk Telekom info, so I'm not sure if he ever played for them. Asseco Gdynia is Trefl Sopot (Arka Gdynia (basketball)). Polish League all-star has now been added. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:07, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

User:DaHuzyBru, I am sure that takes time. Thanks for your efforts. Is there a particular subset of basketball players that you enjoy working on (I am trying to figure out why this one got your attention out of the three I have listed on this page)?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:13, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I was pinged and decided to help! Always happy to assist others with content from eurobasket. DaHuzyBru (talk) 08:30, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

UPDATE

• In summary. An article exists. I have two main issues:
  1. I am unsure if the preferred location of the article is at Kenny Williams (UIC basketball) or Kenny Williams (basketball, born c. 1972). Feedback requested.
  2. This non-RS includes claims of a 10-year international career that I don't know how to research.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:29, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
  • • P.S. The non-RS has dubious claims.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:32, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
      • I.e., 8.5 years after his sourced start date for radio analyst career, he says he has already concluded 10 years of radio broadcasting and moved on. Maybe he had some sort of other radio analyst gig after retiring and before 2007, but it doesn't sound like it.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:40, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
      • As a Michigan basketball fan, I don't think Michigan would have offered more than a preferred walk on to someone of his high school credentials. Maybe Northwestern or some other weaker schools had legitimate interest. So I am not sure what is meant by Big 10 schools started pursuing him.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:43, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Matt Hicks (basketball)

Also if you’d go as far as Northern Illinois, then 1977 MAC POY Matt Hicks (basketball) is also needed. Rikster2 (talk) 12:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Often I do Chicagoland subjects that I think I can get to WP:GA level. Have to see how much is out there on Hicks.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:29, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

• User:DaHuzyBru, if a ping is all it takes. I would love an investigation of the international career for this guy.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:07, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no eurobasket profile for him. Sorry. DaHuzyBru (talk) 05:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

User:DaHuzyBru Is that because of his age? Do the databases not go back to the 70s?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:11, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

DeMarcus Sharp

I created DeMarcus Sharp for the 2023 Southland POY. I am sure I will do more this week but if anyone wants to add to it feel free. Thanks! Rikster2 (talk) 20:39, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Update

User:SportsGuy789, can you give us an update on progress now that we have another class of PoYs on the books. Are any conferences now just one short?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:52, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

You could easily do that yourself Tony. I'm not an administrative assistant. You can go to each article and count the red links, just like I did originally. SportsGuy789 (talk) 21:29, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I probably could, but since you seem to be in charge of the POY article creation effort, I am pretty sure you probably know these answers off the top of your head. I could probably spend time conference by conference to figure out an update. My guess, is I could figure everything out in a half hour and you could do it in 10 minutes.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:07, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I updated the counts and added in the 2023 CPOY redlinks - so there are 4 conferences missing 1 player (the current CPOY). Rikster2 (talk) 15:44, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Tony Worrell

This article I created on the 1988 Southland POY was moved to Draft:Tony Worrell and then failed submission. He played professionally for 11 seasons so there should be more information on him available. Any help would be appreciated. CalDoesIt (talk) 15:55, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I have added three sources and will add some more later. Rikster2 (talk) 22:17, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I have added what I think are sufficient sources to demonstrate GNG, even if only just. The problem is Worrell played in the 80s/90s which is a difficult place to source from the internet - only a fraction of newspapers are at newspapers.com and none of the many basketball magazines of the day are digitized, but I am sure more offline sources exist. Not sure if it has to go through a review or if it can just be promoted again. Rikster2 (talk) 15:57, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, I just moved it back to mainspace. I added 3-4 significant sources. Rikster2 (talk) 13:26, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Comment/Request

This is obviously an important task, and there's a lot of good work going on here, but considering that there has been work going on here for two months, may I suggest moving this in full to its own subpage? -fuzzy510 (talk) 19:17, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Statistics section expectation

Are the statistics sections expected in articles about college basketball players? I'm working on an article about a person who played in the 40s, so the statistics aren't really complete (fg, fga, ft, fta). Should I put in what statistics are available, or just omit the section? Rjjiii (talk) 07:31, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Whatever is available. It's understood that specific stats like that are unlikely to be found from early players. SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leroy_Chollet#Statistics ) Rjjiii (talk) 02:46, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

@Rjjiii: FWIW, there's George Mikan § BAA/NBA career statistics, which is a WP:GA.—Bagumba (talk) 22:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Is this WP:UNDUE

I added David Webber (basketball)'s single game performance in these edits at 1999–2000 NCAA Division I men's basketball season. Is it WP:UNDUE?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:44, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Rethinking above section

In each years season article we currently include a set of top5 season statistical averages. Should we also have section of top single-game statistical performances? I.e, we could add every years top point, rebound, assist, steal and block performances with special cases where an overtime performance overshadows a regulation perfomance and we show both. I am not necessarily your guy to do this, but it is an idea to help summarize the season. Given what I stumbled upon in the section above where both bests were recordsetting or recordtieing, I bet we would be able to highlight many recordsetting performances with this simple addition.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:01, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Dean Smith move discussion

There is a move discussion underway to move Dean Smith to Dean Smith (basketball) and leave the original as a disambiguation page. Please participate in the discussion if you have an opinion on this. Rikster2 (talk) 23:05, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Division I season articles

I'm seeing a lot of NCAA Division I college basketball seasons being declined at AFC. From my past experiences, pretty much all of these are notable. Does anyone want to improve any of the below and get them to mainspace?

• Draft:2002–03 Green Bay Phoenix men's basketball team
• Draft:1998–99 Marquette Golden Eagles men's basketball team
• Draft:1980–81 Eastern Illinois Panthers men's basketball team
• Draft:1979–80 Richmond Spiders men's basketball team
• Draft:2003–04 Eastern Illinois Panthers men's basketball team
• Draft:1970–71 SMU Mustangs men's basketball team
• Draft:1985–86 Marquette Warriors men's basketball team
• Draft:1987–88 Indiana State Sycamores men's basketball team
• Draft:1988–89 East Carolina Pirates men's basketball team
• Draft:1975-76 Oregon Webfoots men's basketball team
• Draft:1979–80 Rutgers Scarlet Knights men's basketball team
• Draft:1981–82 Long Beach State 49ers men's basketball team
• Draft:1979–80 Vermont Catamounts men's basketball team
• Draft:1979–80 Cornell Big Red men's basketball team

BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:26, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

most D1 men’s hoop seasons get more than ample coverage to demonstrate notability. The issue is that when people create them they don’t make any effort to put sufficient sources (or even content) in the article. They just show a schedule and a roster and cite it from a database. Rikster2 (talk) 11:53, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Record book self-contradictions

I have never seen a player whose career was misrepresented in record books as curiously as Chris Wroblewski. I have dug up parts of various Ivy League record books and found two self-contradictions:

1. The 2013–14 edition: list him on page 79 as the 2008–09 3-pt% season leader (Ivy Games only) at 52.4%, but on page 78 omits him from the list of best all-time Ivy Seasons in a list extending to 16th-T 51.2%.
2. The 2018–19 edition: lists him on page 19 as only a 2011 Academic All-Ivy selection, but in both the 2010–11 and 2011–12 season sections on page 42 lists him as Academic All-Ivy

Can someone confirm I am not misreading these?

Does anyone have access to more recent editions that might include corrections?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:48, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• Also, the The 2018–19 Ivy Record book lists his Ivy Rookie of the Week Performances on page 41, but the 2022–23 Cornell record book omits these on page 52.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:41, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Former D-I arena AFD-closed as merge

Hello, I don't usually deal with merging articles, and I such I don't know the best way about handling this. I noticed Frederickson Fieldhouse, the home of Oklahoma City University when it was a Division I program, had a deletion request which was closed as merge. It hasn't been merged yet. I thought this should be noticed.- UCO2009bluejay (talk) 17:28, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Are these coaches the same?

Is D. C. Hall the same as David C. Hall the coach at Washington (Seattle)?- UCO2009bluejay (talk) 04:55, 26 June 2023 (UTC) 'Note I moved D. C. Hall to David C. Hall. Apparently he was and the individual seems to have had another page at David Hall (athlete). Merge discussion intitated. See David Hall (athlete) if you are interested in the discussion.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 21:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Content assessment

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Content assessment#Proposal: Reclassification of Current & Future-Classes as time parameter, which is within the scope of this WikiProject. This WikiProject received this message because it currently uses "Current" and/or "Future" class(es). There is a proposal to split these two article "classes" into a new parameter "time", in order to standardise article-rating across Wikipedia (per RfC), while also allowing simultaneous usage of quality criteria and time for interest projects. Thanks! —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 20:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Categories

I know Category:College baseball teams in the United States has subcategories based upon division, so does football, and softball. My question is with about 1000 teams in Category:College men's basketball teams in the United States, should there be a subcategories for Category:NCAA Division I men's basketball teams, Category:NCAA Division I women's basketball teams, Category:NCAA Division II men's basketball teams, Category:NAIA women's basketball teams etc.? Do the other sports have it wrong? UCO2009bluejay (talk) 20:02, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I know WP:OTHERSTUFF.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 20:03, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

The category as it is definitely seems incredibly unwieldy, and further sorting makes a lot of sense to me. -fuzzy510 (talk) 20:19, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm surprised we don't have this. College basketball is as far as I know the college sport with the most teams (definitely for D1 at least), so it would probably benefit the most from having categories split by division. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 01:55, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Note the D-I men's category existed and was deleted for being empty. However, just a cursory search (of D-I programs) says that it wasn't used. Which leads me to believe that someone created it and didn't put anything into it, or moved whatever would have been in it because it wasn't used.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 02:09, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

It seems there is diffusing by conference at Category:College men's basketball by conference in the United States. Perhaps that can be leveraged? That category and Category:College men's basketball teams in the United States‎ are both children of Category:College men's basketball in the United States.—Bagumba (talk) 15:29, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I understand that it could be a quick fix.--Not that it has to but, how would that impact the other sports that already break it down by division. I was thinking about consistency.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 03:02, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Source help

If anyone has access to Detroit News archives, I am trying to get access to March 26, 1998 article with the following content: "Manciel signed with Central Michigan and is expected to play small forward. ... Webber is being recruited by Central Michigan, Eastern Michigan,...". in order to resolve the last remaining issue at Template:Did you know nominations/David Webber (basketball) so David Webber (basketball) can run on the main page. That article includes content regarding Manciel signing with CMU before Webber did and a list of schools recruiting Webber. The title is "All-senior unit led teams to titles" [Final Edition]. The author is Markowski, Tom--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:07, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

• That newspaper also has an April 15 article about his signing with the title "Local / State Roundup: Michigan State, U-M split in softball" and content that includes "CMU signed David Webber": [Final Edition]-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:15, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Upon further inspection of my sources, I don't need these to resolve the last issue in the DYK review, but a basketball bio seems incomplete without a list of schools that was recruiting a player and his signing date.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:22, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

• Resolved
  . Thanks to the Ann Arbor District Library for emailing me the article although I almost didn't see it since I requested it from an alternate email address on my phone.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Administrators noticeboard discussion

There is a discussion pending at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#About 300 articles that fail WP:NOTSTATS as to whether articles listing college football/basketball/hockey programs' statistical leaders (e.g., Michigan State Spartans men's basketball statistical leaders and Notre Dame Fighting Irish men's ice hockey statistical leaders) should be deleted en masse. Cbl62 (talk) 01:19, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Angel Reese FAC

Angel Reese is a featured article candidate, currently with two supports, and is in urgent need of feedback. Please consider reviewing this article soon if you are interested. Sportzeditz (talk) 00:50, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Infobox

U.S. college basketball team articles use {{Infobox college basketball team}}; however, the rest of the basketball world, from Los Angeles Lakers to Real Madrid Baloncesto, uses {{Infobox basketball club}}. I propose that the {{Infobox college basketball team}} use {{Infobox basketball club}} as some sort of wrapper to standardize things. If this happens, it'll sorta look the same like the {{Infobox college football team}}.

I'm also proposing a similar change with {{Infobox national basketball team}}, as the other outlier in the basketball world. Ideally, all basketball clubs/teams should have the same look. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:39, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Future-class

See also: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball/Archive 10 § Project-independent quality assessments

Hello project members! Note that per WP:PIQA, all the class ratings are being harmonised across different WikiProjects so we would need to remove any non-standard classes like Future-class from your project banner. Would you like to keep track of future events in a different way, perhaps by using a parameter |future=yes which would then populate a category. Alternatively it could just be removed and then the articles in Category:Future-Class college basketball articles would inherit the quality rating from other projects on the talk page. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Future-class has now been removed and the banner converted to use the standard quality scale — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:40, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

AfD discussion: Auburn–UAB men's basketball rivalry

The following AfD discussion may be of interest to members of this WikiProject:

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Auburn–UAB men's basketball rivalry Cielquiparle (talk) 19:14, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Request for consensus - achievements included in infobox

I am hoping for consensus to an addendum to the infobox basketball biography awards section. Please weigh in here to help reach a go/no go decision. Thanks Rikster2 (talk) 22:35, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament qualifying teams articles

The article 2008 NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament qualifying teams has been WP:PRODded for lack of sources. This is a series of articles and most are either undersourced or aren’t sourced at all. If this series is valid, somebody needs to source them or they are ripe for deletion. Given the interest in tournament selection each year I can’t imagine that finding sources is a problem. Rikster2 (talk) 14:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

And is there really a need for a standalone when most is already at 2008 NCAA Division I men's basketball tournament § Qualifying teams? —Bagumba (talk) 16:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

I don’t have a strong opinion on it. To be honest I didn’t know these articles existed. I posted this in case somebody is passionate about it. It would be weird to prod 2008 but leave all the others though. Rikster2 (talk) 16:25, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Pac-12 vs. Pac-2

Any idea how we should handle this at the end of the school year? Are really going to move all Pac-12 articles to be Pac-2? (lol) There's something weird about calling it the Pac-2 Conference Men's Basketball Player of the Year, for instance.... SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:38, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Any indication Pac-2 will even be an official name? If not, it will need a strong case for WP:COMMONNAME. —Bagumba (talk) 16:51, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't think Oregon State and Washington State are planning to change the name, at least not right away. They are still leaving open the possibility of bringing new members into the conference. For the next two seasons, the Pac-12 will remain their primary conference, and it looks like they will be a two-conference team in football, while most (or perhaps all) their other sports will be played as associate members of the WCC. Baseball is the only open question. They have an option to become associate members of the WCC for baseball, but they may try to place that sport somewhere else, given Oregon State's recent high achievement. If they were to play that sport in the WCC, the risk they would take is that the WCC has usually been a one-bid conference for baseball. We could see Washington State become an associate of the WCC for baseball, while Oregon State goes to the Big 12 for that sport.

In any case, there won't be a Pac-12 or Pac-2 basketball season for the next two years. It will be a football-only (perhaps with baseball as well) league. If they find a way to breathe new life into the conference, they'll have to make a decision on the name.Taxman1913 (talk) 21:25, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

1960 NCAA University Division basketball championship game

Can we get a Bob Knight fan to create 1960 NCAA University Division basketball championship game? 61 and 62 are needed too.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:55, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Modified January 1, 1970, 8:00 AM 2001:4450:47B3:500:144B:DD50:725D:DBC8 (talk) 16:19, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Modified January 1, 1970, 8:00 AM 2001:4450:47B3:500:144B:DD50:725D:DBC8 (talk) 16:20, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Dean Smith

Dean Smith has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Hog Farm _Talk 02:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

4 or 5 Assistant coaches

I have never noticed more than 3 assistant coaches on a team season article before this year. I see several with 4 this year (2023–24 Memphis Tigers men's basketball team, 2023–24 Texas Tech Red Raiders basketball team, 2023–24 Minnesota Golden Gophers men's basketball team) and even noticed one with 5 (2023–24 Illinois State Redbirds men's basketball team). Each of these teams only had 3 last year. What is going on?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:39, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

@TonyTheTiger: – I don't have a great explanation other than maybe editors are deciding to just include whatever assistant coaches are listed on the respective teams' websites? Memphis' coaching roster (link) lists all 4 of those guys. My guess is that it's unclear as to who should be listed on Wikipedia or not, so the editors aren't wanting to make that unilateral decision and just siding with caution. SportsGuy789 (talk) 23:46, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

editors are probably listing guys who are not full assistants. For example, UNC has Marcus Paige and Pat Sullivan on staff but neither is a full assistant. These should be pared down to the actual assistants on staff. Rikster2 (talk) 23:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I removed the Illinois State guys but the other two don’t say which coach is not the full assistant. A team can only have 3 full assistants per NCAA rules. Rikster2 (talk) 00:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

The NCAA increased the number of assistant coaches allowed to five after a rule change took place in July 2023. Further details are here. CalDoesIt (talk) 07:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

User:Rikster2, I don't know how many places you removed extra coaches from, but it seems like we should revert those changes now that we are up to speed on the issue.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:16, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

the only ones I removed were guys who had titles other than full assistant. Regardless of how many on staff only full assistants or higher should be listed. Rikster2 (talk) 14:45, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Conference Player of the Year article effort – progress update

As is tradition at this point: time for an annual CPOY progress update. The following templates are complete: A-10, American South, ACC, America East, AAC, American West, Big 12, Big East, Big Eight, Big South, Big Ten, CAA, C-USA, East Coast, Great Midwest, Great West, Horizon, Ivy, Metro, Midwestern, MVC, Mountain West, Pac-12, Patriot, SEC, SoCon, SWAC, SWC, West Coast, and WAC.

Below are the number of articles needed to complete the rest (97 total):

• ASUN → 13
• Big Sky → 12
• Big West → 7
• Gulf Star → 2

• MAAC → 7
• Mid-American → 5
• MEAC → 12
• NEC → 8

• OVC → 11
• Southland → 9
• Summit → 6
• Sun Belt → 5

We've been working on these since 2006. We're a lot closer to seeing completion of a massive chapter in this project's to-do list, but we've still got to roll up our sleeves. I'm not asking for anyone to jump in on these red links right now, this is just a state of the union. SportsGuy789 (talk) 00:30, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Good work all! We are also starting to get to the point of the season where top candidates for this year’s CPOYs are becoming clear so those are pretty good article targets too. For example, I created Enrique Freeman who is probably the leading candidate for the MAC. These help ensure the effort stays completed after the March announcements Rikster2 (talk) 14:42, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a good reminder and it is great to see the continued progress. I created Jim Turner (basketball) of Ivy League fame today. CalDoesIt (talk) 16:09, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

The present season's CPOY articles seem to get created pretty quickly once the player is announced (shout out to Editorofthewiki who usually jumps all over them). But definitely agree, we can't let the 2024 winners remain red links for too long. And CalDoesIt, much appreciated with all of the work you've done these last few years. You sort of came out of nowhere as a WP:CBBALL contributor but you quickly learned how to format the articles (infobox requirements, general layout etc.) and have helped this project immensely. You've authored dozens of CPOYs. Maybe me, Rikster2, you, and Editorofthewiki should think about a collaboration where we attack one or two conferences with very few remaining redlinks just to knock them out entirely. SportsGuy789 (talk) 18:20, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, SportsGuy789. It was a welcome surprise when you let me know last year that there was an ongoing collaborative effort to get the redlinks done and I am glad to have contributed. I like the idea of your plan. Ivy is a good conference to begin with only the three remaining. CalDoesIt (talk) 06:15, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Jason Forte is created so that leaves only two for Ivy. On Forte, I could not find any substantive information about his professional career so any addition would be appreciated. Another player with the same name (EuroBasket link) had an extensive international career so it can be misleading. CalDoesIt (talk) 10:11, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Nice job on Forte. I has no idea he was Joseph Forte's brother. @TonyTheTiger: Before someone else claims him, I know I messaged you about creating Princeton's Sean Jackson (basketball) since you went to school there and have an affinity for that program. Would you like to tackle Jackson's article, and allow one of us other editors to knock out Craig Austin? Then, the Ivy POYs would be complete! SportsGuy789 (talk) 23:49, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Meant to ping @DaHuzyBru:. Might there be any Eurobasket, Latinbasket (etc.) sites for Jason Forte to beef up his pro career? (CalDoesIt – FYI, DaHuzyBru has a Eurobasket subscription and helps out with career histories when he can). SportsGuy789 (talk) 23:53, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I have added the little detail I can from Eurobasket. DaHuzyBru (talk) 00:35, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I will handle Jackson, but I need to wait until within 6 weeks of the Saturday of tournament since first round games can be as late as Saturday UTC (Friday night games in the US), if I want to shoot for a DYK date request for Princeton's tournament game. It is going to be a challange.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I know we don't talk much about female POYs, but I happened to 5x Joanne McCarthy (basketball) this past weekend.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I managed to find enough information to create Craig Austin which leaves only Sean Jackson (basketball) for Ivy. I am looking forward to seeing your work there, @TonyTheTiger:. CalDoesIt (talk) 13:31, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• I am at work on Sean Jackson (basketball) at User:TonyTheTiger/sandbox/Sean Jackson. I am trying to find a more recent Ivy Record book than the 2015-16 I have archived for Brian Earl. Also, I am looking for sources for 2 potential current or former Ivy League records. Since the Ivy League adopted the three point shot for the 86-7 season, I think Jackson's consecutive game with a three record of (56) has a good chance of at least being a former record. Also, I think his 3.19 threes per game (aided by the fact that his freshman season was not in the Ivy League) career record may be an Ivy career record since they don't have a lot of transfers and even Ryan Wittman does not meet this number. That is the latest.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:36, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Keith Hughes (basketball)

Since this is POY time of year for WP:CBB, can somebody unravel the professional chronology of Keith Hughes (basketball) for his infobox.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:49, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I can get the CBA stuff but might need DaHuzyBru to use his Eurobasket access for the rest. Rikster2 (talk) 17:27, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Done. DaHuzyBru (talk) 02:37, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

@TonyTheTiger: – a trick I'll do is check the inter-language wikis of the player, because more often than not there is an Italian and/or Spanish language player bio with full career infobox teams. SportsGuy789 (talk) 21:19, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Nice.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:08, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

@SportsGuy789, DaHuzyBru, and Rikster2: just noticing in this case the foreign articles have 17 professional teams and we have 15. Should we just add both additional teams (Viola Reggio Calabria and Banco de Cordoba) without any other varification?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:32, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

When a discrepancy arises, I defer to DaHuzyBru's additions because I know he's using a RS with Eurobasket. Who knows what source(s) the foreign language editors are using. SportsGuy789 (talk) 01:44, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. The WP:CIRCULAR policy clearly states:

Do not use articles from Wikipedia (whether English Wikipedia or Wikipedias in other languages) as sources, since Wikipedia is a user-generated source

—Bagumba (talk) 02:07, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

POYs without NBA stats tables

While working on Sean Jackson (basketball) for the POY effort, I noticed two of his former teammates who are POYs and missing NBA stats tables: Paul Graham (basketball player) and Dave Jamerson. Jackson could also use a college stats table.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:10, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

• I have 9.5xed the Dave Jamerson article, but I need details from an article from Omaha World-Herald. Specifically, Jamerson seems to have been in a transaction on February 26, 1994, but I can not see the detail. The article is titled "Rochester Trashes the Racers".-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:13, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Records against non-DI opponents

If a DI record is broken against a non-DI opponent is it always or sometimes asterisked?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:47, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Niagara_Purple_Eagles_men's_basketball#Seasons conference affiliation

I have never been as confused as I was at determining the conference affiliation by a season list as I was upon arrival at Niagara_Purple_Eagles_men's_basketball#Seasons for the 1986–87 season. On first glance it looks like Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference affiliation is claimed, but then the fine print says not until 1989 without further clarification. Then if you look at https://purpleeagles.com/documents/2022/11/9/History_Book.pdf (page 13) it mentions an NAC, which is I presume North Atlantic Conference affiliation. However, it is not what is at North Atlantic Conference and not what is at North Atlantic Conference (1946) (which is omited from the North Atlantic Conference hatnote) but rather what is now the America East Conference, which was then known as the Eastern College Athletic Conference-North. Is anyone following all of this. Furthermore, when looking at (page 13) you would think earlier years are at Eastern College Athletic Conference affiliation as it pertains to Calvin Murphy's 68-69 season, but Murphys games don't count as conference games on page 3 or 4.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:41, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Niagara is included in Template:1986–87 ECAC North men's basketball standings. Jweiss11 (talk) 15:49, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

That does not make Niagara_Purple_Eagles_men's_basketball#Seasons any clearer or help me figure out which conference record books to look for when I am there.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:48, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Kyle Neptune

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Kyle Neptune#Gameday attire, which is within the scope of this WikiProject.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 09:30, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Infobox help

Is there a way to add that Joey Meyer (basketball) was drafted in the NBA draft to his infobox. Help needed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:17, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• P.s. any help cleaning/buffing up his article for a recent death run on the main page would be appreciated.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:20, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

{{Infobox college coach}} doesn't have any variables to support NBA Draft-related stuff, unfortunately. You'd have to migrate to {{Infobox basketball biography}} to do that, but I think that's really for players who turned into coaches, a la Speedy Claxton, say. Infoboxes should "... summarize key features of the page's subject," not cover every feature of their life/career, and I suppose the draft position of a guy who never played a professional game isn't actually that vital. I'd probably just leave it out? I don't think that would be an issue. Buttons to Push Buttons (talk | contribs) 18:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

@TonyTheTiger and @Buttons to Push Buttons, in the case of Doc Rivers, it details his NBA coaching and playing career. Also, says his NBA draft class and draft position. Probably need to follow his article's infobox framework - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 01:44, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I updated it. Now includes draft position. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 02:13, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

User:BeFriendlyGoodSir, Thx.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:21, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

WP:BLPN discussion

I have opened a discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Unflattering_subject_matter_not_fully_confirmed that the project should be aware of.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:54, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Seems to be resolved.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:20, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Professional experience

I don't often work on articles of such marginal notability that I do them in a user sandbox, but I am working on getting User:TonyTheTiger/sandbox/Gary Bossert over the WP:BLP1E hump, and need to know if he played pro ball. User:Rikster2 can you look at CBA and User:DaHuzyBru can you check international stuff for Gary Bossert.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:19, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

No Eurobasket profile for this guy, sorry. DaHuzyBru (talk) 01:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Nothing in my CBA sources, don’t think he played there. Rikster2 (talk) 16:05, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Rikster2 and DaHuzyBru:, could either of you tell me whether you think the 2nd sentence in the first paragraph is overstated, since he was only a 78% free throw shooter in college? It sort of makes it look like he is the greatest shooter you could imagine.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:27, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

List of NCAA Division I men's basketball career scoring leaders

This list shows the top 25 all-time scorers, the single all-time conference scorers and collapses the single all-time school scorers. In see also sections, should we include this list for school all-time scorers. If so, do we have to keep them collapsed because it is kind of confusing to land on a page and not have a relevant term that can be searched for.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:52, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Why is there no table of contents on the page? I think you raise an important point here. I just added the collapsible template to UCLA Bruins men's basketball statistical leaders. Would be good on all relevant school statistic leader pages. If you disagree with the addition, feel free to correct it. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

User:BeFriendlyGoodSir that collapsible template is a totally different issue. You are talking about a separate template. Look at the leading scorers by school list that I am talking about within the article. I don't understand why it needs to be default collapsed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:33, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh, got it. I see the issue you are talking about now. Default collapsed on that is a bizarre choice in my opinion. When I went through the article, I did not even notice it, and completely passed it. It is valuable information that should be made visible. Makes me wonder how many other viewers miss it altogether like me. I support the change to non-collapsing and adding table of contents. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:53, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I reverted it, as it fails WP:BIDIRECTIONAL, which is a good guideline to control template clutter. —Bagumba (talk) 10:28, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Tony, they're collapsed (which does not go against any cited policies or best practices) because otherwise the article would be hella long. We're talking 360+ rows for what, to save a click of a button? Common sense has to prevail here. SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:37, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

The button is the issue. The average reader who sees the list in a see also section and navigates here will then probably Ctrl-f for the player they came from. If the school leaders are collapsed, the reader will not find them with ctrl-f and think that we just have not updated for a removal from the top list.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:44, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

You're talking about a < 1% of the time occurrence. We should not make this article a thousand miles long just so 1 out of 100 people have to "find" a button to click to expand. The default should be collapsed. SportsGuy789 (talk) 18:25, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

User:SportsGuy789, Where does <1% come from? Do you have some statistic showing that that few people are coming from see also links of school record holders?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:54, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/hyperbole. Do you have statistics that show the vast majority of people are having the same problem you personally had? You're literally the first and only person in 2 years of that list being collapsed to complain. SportsGuy789 (talk) 20:57, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I never started talking about statistics or a vast majority of experiences. What if it is a problem for 1% of visitors to the page. It has had 954,310 pageviews between July 2015 and January 2024. That would be about ten thousand people who have had the problem. It is very uncommon for readers to come to WP Project discussion pages, so silence is not proof of anything. The average sophistication of a reader who sees a link in a see also section would be to come to the page and ctrl-f the player name. Collapsing format would shield any result. The user would assume that the link that sent him to the page was for an outdated listing that has been removed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:40, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Now you're assuming 10,000 unique people, a base flaw in that logic. But ultimately you're looking for a solution in search of a problem. SportsGuy789 (talk) 05:27, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

User:SportsGuy789, I don't know if you noticed, but the three other discussants in this thread disagree with you. Also, is your point about unique visitors that if a college basketball fan arrives at this list from a variety of different pages over time, the fact that he may have trouble finding the school record holder for the different visits only counts once?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:44, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Tony do whatever the hell you want to do. I don't care anymore. Some of us have full-time jobs and view Wikipedia as a fun distraction from real life, whereas others are on this site 12 hours a day and want to bullrush their viewpoints through by bludgeoning their points to death. Tell ya what, I'll throw the career scoring leaders article for AFD, how about that? It's so problematic apparently that we should really get a pulse on if it even belongs on Wikipedia! Why didn't I think of this sooner? SportsGuy789 (talk) 19:47, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if they should be three separate standalone pages. If not, are we just parking non-notable lists here to avoid them being WP:AFDed, and are they WP:UNDUE there? —Bagumba (talk) 10:35, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I think people talk a lot about conference and school scoring leaders. I am remiss that I did not realize Caitlin Clark was going to set the B1G scoring record here in Chicago last week. It was all over the news after it happened. I don't know if the same is true of other stats. However, I would be in favor of adding conference by conference for (assists, rebounds, steals and blocks) and would not oppose school by school.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:18, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I completely object to making them three standalone articles. All-time, conference all-time, and school all-time leading scorers are all interrelated topics and all notable. Furthermore, keeping them on one article allows for quick cross-referencing of which players happen to be on multiple of these lists. Kind of insane to me that anyone active in any of the basketball WikiProjects (let alone CBBALL) would not find value in those lists. SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:35, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I object too. I am here to try to improve navigation for the reader who will be lost if the school record holder list is collapesed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:45, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

@SportsGuy789, @Bagumba, @TonyTheTiger: As is, the default collapse isn't user friendly for the average wikipedian user. Is there a way to make the table "semi"-collapsible such that it only displays one of each first letter? Or some variation of that? Otherwise, I am fine with keeping it as is since I did not expect this resistance per WP:BIDIRECTIONAL. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 18:09, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

List of NCAA Division I men's basketball career scoring leaders#All-time schools' scoring leaders appears to contain an empty table on the surface. What percentage of people do you think overlook this detailed and interesting list and do not bother clicking the "show" button (maybe they do not notice it?). Even though it is 360+ rows, keep in mind it is the last section of the article (not the beginning or middle section). It would be nice if it clearly stated "below is a list of All-time schools' scoring leaders (click the "show" button to view the records for 360 schools)". Again, whatever you guys want to do here. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 18:37, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Reasonable suggestion. See this addition. SportsGuy789 (talk) 21:02, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I like that addition. Nicely done. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 23:22, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

A majority of users are on mobile anyways, where "hide" doesn't work and it's all displayed anyways. Per MOS:DONTHIDE:

When such features are used, take care that the content will still be accessible on devices that do not support JavaScript or CSS, and to the greater than 60% of Wikipedia readers who use the mobile version of the site,which has a limited set of features and does not support collapsing (any collapsible templates will either be automatically uncollapsed or hidden entirely).

I'd say just be consistent and show it for everyone. It's presumably an important list, no? —Bagumba (talk) 06:22, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

• If I am understanding correctly, User:Bagumba and User:BeFriendlyGoodSir agree with me that we should uncollapse the school scoring leaders table and User:SportsGuy789 disagrees. Can we now uncollapse these? I would do it myself if I knew how.— Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 20:26, February 13, 2024 (UTC)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:04, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Because of the above from Tony the Tiger? (unsigned), I went ahead and uncollapsed the table. Please revert if you disagree that consensus has been reached. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 18:14, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Thx.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Infobox NCAA basketball game: Having trouble adding a field for each team’s conference names

Hi,

For a while I’ve tried to add a field to this infobox to indicate which conference the teams are from, like for the college football game infobox, and when I try it gives me error messages. Can someone look into this for me?

Template:Infobox NCAA basketball game/doc Alex9234 (talk) 17:14, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a diff from when this error occurred? —Bagumba (talk) 04:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

The error reads as follows when I try to add the fields to the infobox itself:

Preview warning: Page using Template:Infobox NCAA basketball game with unknown parameter "visitor1"

Preview warning: Page using Template:Infobox NCAA basketball game with unknown parameter "home_conference"

Preview warning: Page using Template:Infobox NCAA basketball game with unknown parameter "visitor_conference"

I’m not sure what needs to be done in order for those fields to appear. Alex9234 (talk) 15:24, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba: I believe this is what @Alex9234 is referring to: click here for diff1 - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:18, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that the parameter was added to the documentation page (e.g. "/doc") and not the actual template page. A quick template overview is at Help:A quick guide to templates; however, as a new template editor, you are encouraged to follow Wikipedia:Template sandbox and test cases if you consider making any edits, as mistakes are easily made.—Bagumba (talk) 07:22, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I tried adding to the template page, but it’s still not working. Unless I’m missing something. I really hope someone can point me in the right direction on this so I can figure out what to do. Alex9234 (talk) 15:00, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Never mind, I figured it out. I found out what I needed to do. Alex9234 (talk) 15:29, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

2017–18 Ohio State Buckeyes men's basketball team roster

Why isn't Keita Bates-Diop on the roster? He was Big Ten Conference Men's Basketball Player of the Year that year.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:50, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I guess it was 2021 vandalism that didn't get reverted correctly.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:30, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Statistical leaders for season articles

It seems like prior to 1993-94 (1993–94_NCAA_Division_I_men's_basketball_season#Statistical_leaders) we include 4 statistical categories and after we include 8. Is it possible to expand some of the earlier years to 8? This is the latest issue while researching Sean Jackson (basketball) who entered March Madness 3rd in the nation in 3-point shooting percentage. It would be great to be able to link to this section if it could be buffed up to 8 stats for 91-92.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:55, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Here are the four categories not included: Top 5 Statistical leaders for Steals per game, Field goal percentage, Three-point FG percentage, and Free throw percentage.

Note that tracking began in 1985-86 for blocked shots and steals - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:23, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

The 3 point shot was introduced in 1986-87. I don't know who added the stats tables, but if that person is around maybe they could be encouraged to take this format back to 86.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:30, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Also, I think steals and blocks started in 84-85.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:51, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

@TonyTheTiger:, here is the source to the information (includes much more than just those 6 categories) which should've been references on the Wikipedia articles: Basketball-Reference statistical leaders in 1993-94 season BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 02:58, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Most important thing is for this Basketball-Reference to be added to the table for each season so people know where to look to find additional stats. Adding the extra 4 categories can be done after this. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I added Source for 51 stats categories including the 8 included for each season from 1992-2023. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

8 columns now for 1990–91 and 1992-93. Three more years needed for completion (1988–89, 1989-90, and 1991–92). I am not going to finish this. If anyone wants to step in and do those three years, that would be great. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Two guys in need of team info for infobox

These are all WP:CHICAGO basketball guys:

Peter J. Patton is a pretty stubby and shabby stub at that article that has no infobox despite prose that seems to enumerate a bunch of positions and teams as a player. User:Rikster2 and User:DaHuzyBru can you gather relevant team history info?

Not even sure if he passes WP:NCOLLATH, but I may try to see if I can 5x it.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Looking more closely at NCOLLATH maybe I should WP:PROD or WP:AFD Patton.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Peter J. Patton

Todd Leslie: There are some claims about a CBA non-roster player, which sounds to me like a taxi squad. I don't know if he ever got onto the roster and into a game, but please check this out.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:05, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Tom Kleinschmidt also seems to need his team history.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:08, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

I created the Kleinschmidt article so suffice to say I didn’t have pro info on him. Might need dahuzybru to take the lead here. Rikster2 (talk) 00:09, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

There is no Eurobasket profile for Todd Leslie but there is for Tom Kleinschmidt. I have added info accordingly. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:23, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Mark Halsel

I added his infobox. Rikster2 and DaHuzyBru: – any pro career history you can fill in? SportsGuy789 (talk) 06:07, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

No Eurobasket profile, sorry. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Updated the CBA tenures. That article needs sources. I saw several on his college career at newspapers.com when tracking down his transactions. Rikster2 (talk) 19:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Important basic articles

We annually account for progress on POYs, which are among the most important bios. However, I have been alarmed of late to see the number of high major teams that we do not have Head coach list articles, season list articles and/or statistical leader list articles for. Shouldn't we have these basic articles for most important schools now. Should we make a check box of redlinks or redirects for DI schools for these three types of lists?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:46, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I see what you mean. Navbox has to be filled properly so people are aware these articles need to be created. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 02:05, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Is there a Category that includes all Mid-Major Men's basketball main articles? Makes it easier to sift through...Regarding the "List of Seasons" articles, strategy to encourage article creation is being addressed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball#Template for men's basketball navbox. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 02:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

That discussion is about formatting the seasons articles on the template. I am saying that we should have a table or list within the project showing which schools need, coach, season and stat lists to bring these omissions to the forefront.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:38, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

BeFriendlyGoodSir, no, because the definition of mid-major is not objective and is prone to dispute. It would be original research to create a category for mid-major programs. TonyTheTiger, IMO the easiest way to keep a running list of all programs' lists would be to expand upon the already existing Wikipedia:WikiProject College Basketball/Master Table. SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:32, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

User:SportsGuy789, Absolutely! Pop 3 columns in there and we'll all see articles that we care about that are missing. I was just thinking about the men's side. I know the women's side is really going to show a lot of redlinks in this regard. I was working on Charlie Moore (basketball)#See also. I was curious whether he ever had a big enough game that he should have a Cal link, but there was no article to check. In the last few weeks, I have created or expanded several articles that seem to have been missing one of these three article type links.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah that Master Table is very useful. Admittedly, I have no personal interest in helping you add those columns (lol sorry!) but most of the legwork is done already as far as structuring a redlink checklist. SportsGuy789 (talk) 18:08, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

User:SportsGuy789, now that I know exactly what we need, I am better equipped to seek help. Hopefully someone who is more fluent in table work could take this over.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:42, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

What are we doing in the upset list in the season articles?

Just looking at the list of upsets in the current season article (here). I think we should consider redefining what an “upset” is. The teams in the bottom third of the top 25 especially lose to unranked teams (especially on the road) all the time because they are essentially the same quality teams. That list gets really long in a series of articles that tend to get really long and “list-y.” Right now the current season upset list is 135 rows long. Does anyone else think it might make sense to limit it? Maybe just top ten upsets with losses by #1 highlighted? That is just an example of tighter criteria, but this would cut the table to 48 rows. I just think if these lists get too long they lose their effectiveness. Rikster2 (talk) 19:40, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with that suggestion: that only top-10 losses are listed with #1 losses being highlighted. A few years ago some new editor decided to make listing the top-25 upsets his sole mission, out of nowhere, and it kind of just bled over year to year. SportsGuy789 (talk) 19:49, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Considering that I saw a stat saying how many upsets were made this season during the Creighton-St. John's game on CBS, with 132 upsets by unranked teams as of now, I think just listing top 10 upsets and nothing else just dilutes the impact of it all. Also, I happen to be the editor in question. David Matoushek (talk) 01:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Limiting upsets to being in the top 10 means limiting the hard work certain mid-majors have done in the regular season. Plus, I mentioned to an editor earlier that there were 132 upsets by unranked teams counting Creighton losing. Considering that it was a stat mentioned on a TV broadcast, that would also mean erasing the hard work done by statisticians in the sports world. David Matoushek (talk) 01:47, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

That's not a compelling argument. Statistics are pulled, reported, manipulated, and mentioned by the tens of thousands every college season. Because one guy said a random upsets stat one time on TV isn't a valid argument for superfluous information being added into a Wikipedia article. SportsGuy789 (talk) 05:43, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

At the same time, can't you at least acknowledge certain smaller teams like Chicago State winning for the first time as a history-making moment? Certain accomplishments like that can't be overlooked. Upsets always make me excited for college basketball, but like I said, if you limit to just the top 10, a lot of value is lost. Plus, beating a top 10 team is rare while being unranked. David Matoushek (talk) 13:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Top ten does not have to be the cutoff, it is just a suggestion. Remember that this is the article meant to encapsulate the whole season. Having a huge 150-row table of upsets is, to me, WP:UNDUE given all the other info the article has to convey. I am not suggesting getting rid of the upset section altogether. But when teams pop in and out of the bottom of the top 25 it is normal because they are borderline ranked teams losing in many cases to other borderline ranked teams. Those games aren’t really newsworthy IMO. Rikster2 (talk) 16:08, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry. I just love upsets so much. I know there are too many upsets, but I fear of a lack of important ones. Considering the circumstances, I don't know about what to do. Should I continue what I love or step back a bit? David Matoushek (talk) 16:23, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

• Is there any factor about what time of year it is. At the beginning of the year we don't really know who is good. A preseason top 10 team is different than a February top 10 team.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:57, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Template for men's basketball navbox

Regarding Template:UCLA Bruins men's basketball navbox, I just noticed that if you click "Seasons", it is a hyperlink to List of UCLA Bruins men's basketball seasons. After many years using this navbox, somehow I never noticed. It is because "People", "Culture & lore", "Rivalries", "Venues" are not hyperlinked. Also, the text is not blue to indicate it is a hyperlink.

As a result, I added List of seasons within the seasons section so it is more obvious. As is, it is too hidden in my opinion so I do not view it as redundant. Given that I did not notice it for so many years, who else is missing out on this article?

I then checked Template:USC Trojans men's basketball navbox, and realized it has the exact same problem. Adding List of seasons within the seasons section takes up very little real estate yet provides ton of value... so why not?

Who agrees with this change? If so, it should probably be applied to other similar navboxes. Otherwise, if consensus suggests differently, we can revert before I go down that rabbit hole. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:35, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I'd be good with that update. We'll wait for more folks to chime in before true consensus is formed, but if it is agreeable to most, are you personally volunteering to make the updates to all team navboxe (including red links for season list articles that don't yet exist, to encourage article creation)? SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:41, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I am volunteering to do that for Division I level for Men's basketball. It will take me a week to get it done. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:59, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Somehow, college navs comingle individual seasons into the same box as the general topics. While pro WikiProjs separate them. See Template:Los Angeles Lakers and Template:Los Angeles Lakers seasons. Seems less cluttered to group the general topics together.—Bagumba (talk) 12:07, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I think what you mean is that the college way of doing is preferable, yes? SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I responded below. —Bagumba (talk) 01:26, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I was looking through Template:Detroit Lions's history and I stumbled across two relevant discussions: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 19#Unnecessary duplication of team season navboxes and Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2021 February 16#NFL team season templates. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:37, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Can you please anchor link the exact discussions you're referring to so we don't have to dig through dozens of topics? SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

@SportsGuy789: Woops, meant to do so but got ahead of myself when replying. It was the first one at the NFL WikiProject and second to last at RfD. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:37, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

The college basketball team navboxes have a standard form that was first developed for college football in 2010 and then rolled out to other college sports. BeFriendlyGoodSir brings up an interesting point about the useability of the seasons link. But changes like that, if approved by consensus, should be applied uniformly to all the college sports team navboxes that have this standard form. The pro sports navboxes, such as Los Angeles Lakers ones above, are not examples to which we should aspire. They have fundamental structural problems. They fail to present a closed loop of navigation, that is they are not transcluded onto every article to which they link, e.g. Darvin Ham, Los Angeles. And they fail to link to every article onto which they are trancluded like lost NBA Finals, e.g. 1989 NBA Finals. They have non-navigational clutter in the header like founding date and former cities. They are also loaded with easter-eggy links like the retired numbers. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:05, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the Lakers/NBA boxes - current head coaches (and I think other front office personnel) were supposed to have been removed so that it would not be yet another navboxes on the current coaches’ page - and one that would have to be removed when they were fired or resigned. For Ham, he already has 2 navboxes due to being the current head coach - the current roster and the head coach historical navboxes. Looks like at some point this crept back in. Rikster2 (talk) 17:40, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I can live with less recentism on the team navs, but that can be dealt with at WT:NBA, if needed. The focus of this discussion strayed from seasons presentations. —Bagumba (talk) 01:31, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Here is the parent cat for the college sports team navboxes: Category:American college sports team navigational boxes. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:07, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Agree w/Jweiss11 on both fronts: (a) that the change should be uniformly applied to all college sports projects' team navboxes, and (b) splitting team seasons into its own separate navbox, a la professional sports projects, is the objectively wrong way to go. I'm just one person, and this potential change is far from a consensus, but to me it makes perfect sense to do it as BeFriendlyGoodSir is suggesting. SportsGuy789 (talk) 21:08, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

...is the objectively wrong way to go: Can you expand with some reasons? —Bagumba (talk) 01:25, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Objectively wrong to have 2 navboxes for the same set of information that can be contained in one. Clutter. SportsGuy789 (talk) 20:10, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

If there's a list of team seasons page, it seems less cluttered to have that only on the general team navbox, and group the individual seasons onto a dedicated team season navbox. There's no requirement to blindly copy other questionable practices. —Bagumba (talk) 01:23, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I might agree with @Bagumba. But depends on the reason why you think there needs to be a "separate" team season navbox? Can you please explain? I do not fully understand why you think it is needed. This change would require much more effort. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 22:33, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

@BeFriendlyGoodSir: I'm separating the concept from the effort. Perhaps the idea makes sense if we were designing from scratch, but theres no volunteers to implement it now? Or maybe there's enough WP:WIKIGNOMEs to get it done. Conceptually, it would be like 1999–2000 Los Angeles Lakers season. That has a link to Template:Los Angeles Lakers seasons, but not Template:Los Angeles Lakers (also in line with WP:BIDIRECTIONAL. So the general team template doesn't become saturated with individual season links (imagine another 50 or 100 years later), making it more compact for the general topics on the box, but a link to List of Los Angeles Lakers seasons allows readers a path from the general template to get to an individual season. The separate season navbox then allows navigation between the individual seasons, without needing to plaster all the general template links. —Bagumba (talk) 02:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba, Is this what you had in mind? See Template:UCLA Bruins men's basketball navbox and Template:UCLA Bruins men's basketball seasons. I did a trial run to get a sense of how long it takes to create a separate team season navbox. It was about 30 minutes or 1 hour of work. Takes quite some time. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:15, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

At Template:UCLA Bruins men's basketball navbox, maybe we combine "People" and "Seasons" to "Program", making it more compact. As for the work, if there is general agreement this is something we want, perhaps Wikipedia:Bot requests can automate the creation? —Bagumba (talk) 04:29, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Updated it so "People" and "Seasons" are combined under "Program" so it's more neatly pressed together. Also, here is the original version for comparison - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:52, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

The first (and much easier) step is still to add List of seasons to the general team template. If Wikipedia:Bot requests and WP:WIKIGNOMEs are not able to assist with completing the full project (hopefully they can), the first step is still a good start which I can do on my own fairly quickly. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:07, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted these changes. There's no consensus to break the standard form, united across multiple college sports, that we've had in place for a decade plus. There's no good reason to separate out the individual seasons from the rest of the navbox elements. The navboxes are manageable in size and usable as is. Jweiss11 (talk) 07:06, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

OK Jweiss11, I will not revert. Here is the new general team template and seasons team template for the people's consideration. @Bagumba makes a good point that we should consider being proactive in these changes as the navboxes will not be manageable in size in the not-too-distant future (50-100 seasons from now) when changes will be more difficult. Beyond that, Bagumba also suggested that we place "People" section at the top of general team template since it is the most essential of information. We should be open to these changes if the people agree it is constructive and not resist for the sake of inconvenience. However, if you guys do not agree with this (Jweiss11 and SportsGuy789 do not), my original offer to add List of seasons within general team template (without removing full seasons list) is still on the table as shown on Template:UCLA Bruins men's basketball navbox which everyone above seems to agree with. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 08:48, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

BeFriendlyGoodSir, I moved the UCLA seasons navbox to Draft:UCLA Bruins men's basketball seasons navbox. And there's no prejudice against you or anyone mocking up alternative versions of these navboxes in a draft or sandbox space. I've thought about the seasons growth issue years ago, but separating out the seasons from the rest of the elements in the navbox doesn't help all that much. Virtually all of the growth in the number of articles about a team will come from new seasons as they arise each new year. The number of other articles for new rivalries, venues, culture/lore, etc. will grow far more slowly. So 50 or 100 years from now, all the non-season elements will represent an even smaller percentage of the total number of elements in the nabvox. Fortunately, we have a lot of time to consider how to manage these navboxes before they start to get crazy long, like 200 years from now. And by that time, it will AI cyborgs editing and reading Wikipedia anyway. :) Jweiss11 (talk) 21:19, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

BeFriendlyGoodSir, back to your original concern, I do think you have a valid point about the usability of the "Seasons" links in the left-hand boxes of these templates. The titles of these navboxes at the top are similarly linked to the main program articles. Do you see a useability there too? I wonder if there's a way for us to make it more obvious to readers that those elements are clickable without changing the location of those elements. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:24, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

...wonder if there's a way for us to make it more obvious to readers that those elements are clickable without changing the location of those elements: Jweiss11, you lost me with that thought. How can that be achieved? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 01:21, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

another option is to add the "Seasons" link to the top of the navbox as displayed on Draft:Template: experimental UCLA Bruins men's basketball navbox. Not sure how I feel about it. Let us know if you have other ideas. We can have both? The display at the top and the "List of Seasons" within season section. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 22:49, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

BeFriendlyGoodSir, I don't see how moving the "Seasons" link to top the navbox helps at all as the same usability issue persists in that layout, plus now we have this random "Seasons" banner. I think we can nix this idea. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:31, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

The customized border colors have generally cause a MOS:COLOR violation, with no indication that a link lurks:

Links should clearly be identifiable as a link to our readers

So we either change the colors or move the links elsewhere, which in some cases duplicates text already on borders. —Bagumba (talk) 01:25, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, the NHL project keeps the background white, so the default link color remains visible e,g, Template:Los_Angeles_Kings.—Bagumba (talk) 06:22, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Interesting, I wonder why the NHL project chose that path? So the two options are background white for all college sports projects OR "List of Seasons" within season section. I am in favor of the latter choice for aesthetic (school spirit) reasons. Since "Seasons" is the only hyperlinked portion in the left-hand boxes, the sacrifice (lack of color) seems overly excessive. But I am open to it if that is what the majority prefers. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 06:47, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

The general program link at the very top, e.g. "UCLA Bruins men's basketball", is also hidden behind the color as well. —Bagumba (talk) 06:49, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

It's reasonable that Wikipedia readers would understand, or at least infer, that the general program name at the top of the team navbox is a link. It'd be overkill to try and find another spot in the navbox to formally "show" the link. SportsGuy789 (talk) 07:16, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @SportsGuy789 observation regarding links in the top of the team navbox. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 07:22, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

See Draft:Template: experimental UCLA Bruins men's basketball navbox for color change so you can see links. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 06:52, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

School colors are immediately identifiable to most, if not all, casual and dedicated fans alike. Removing colors would not only make it more difficult to see right away what program it is, but it doesn't serve any additional benefit in any capacity (as long as the seasons link is moved to within the navbox body, making it easier to see, the crux of the issue anyways). SportsGuy789 (talk) 07:16, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

If the color change is wanted (hope not), we need to look at the potentially HUGE can of worms we are opening here. For example, the general program links at the very top are hidden behind the color for Template:Pac-12 Conference men's basketball navbox and Template:UCLA. However, I have not found a case where there are hyperlinks in left-hand boxes. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 07:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Back to the original topic...

Let's just squash the colorless team navboxes now. I can guarantee that suggestion would get demolished in a consensus-building discussion with the other WP:CBBALL, WP:CFB, and WP:COLLEGEBASEBALL editors. This needs to be circled back into the decision choices of either:

• (a) put the "List of seasons" link at the forefront of the individual season links (like this), or
• (b) remove the individual seasons and have just program / venues / rivalries / culture & lore sections (like this)
• (c) put the "List of seasons" link at the forefront of the individual season links, move general team link into a renamed "Program" (from "People") (like this)

SportsGuy789 (talk) 07:34, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Note I've added a new option (c), similar to "Team" link at Template:Los Angeles Kings.—Bagumba (talk) 08:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

For (a), the top link to the main UCLA Bruins men's basketball is still hidden.—Bagumba (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

It's pedantic at this point ([16][17]). SportsGuy789 (talk) 07:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. I missed that (but so will anyone new who TLDRs the above).—Bagumba (talk) 07:49, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

(to add) Then the can of worms would be massive. The WikiProjects of college, club, and professional level sports, schools, and institutions all over Wikipedia would need to be changed. Bagumba, if you want to change the rest of Wikipedia and spearhead that charge, have at it. To reiterate, it's not unreasonable to assume readers have a single brain cell that the main title of a navbox topic is a link. SportsGuy789 (talk) 07:45, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Things are not always perfect. People get that. It doesn't make it WP:COMPULSORY for the person who brings up the elephant in the room to fix it. People can weigh options, or say "option X is ideal, but option Y is more practical." —Bagumba (talk) 07:56, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

• I support (b) support (c) . - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 07:52, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
• Ideally (b) but (c) in the interim is less work and addresses the hidden links. Of course the least work is do nothing, but don't act suprised if someone one day raises an MOS:ACCESS issue against the WP:LOCALCONSENSUS.—Bagumba (talk) 08:34, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
• (c) I like how this can also encourage creation of list of seasons pages (or more readibly identify redirects).-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 15:44, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
• (c) I think it's the most practical. I also don't like the idea of removing the seasons links, they are accessible and navigable. Also, if we remove season links, it'll force a seasons-only navbox like the pro wikiprojects, which I'm ardently against. They add clutter. SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:11, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

They reduce clutter by not inundating the season pages with the general links. And the general pages dont get a mess of season links. —Bagumba (talk) 16:53, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like you're the kinda guy who likes to make two stops when running errands instead of one. Agree to disagree. SportsGuy789 (talk) 18:09, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. Everything, might be at Costco, but it can be a pain to find and the choices are supersized. —Bagumba (talk) 01:49, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

• (a) is the best option of those listed above, but for now I'd prefer d) do nothing and... think about better ways to use color in the navboxes. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:17, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

  See Template:Greater Los Angeles Area Sports. It has yellow coloring in the left-hand boxes and title bar, but we can see the hyperlinks. Can we use this as inspiration? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 22:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

I always viewed that as a California specific stylistic thing.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 03:55, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps. But the fact is that it appears possible to emulate this color technique to make the hyperlinks pop off the screen, even for the blue UCLA background. However, I haven't figured it out myself and making no progress in this area. Anyone know how to do it? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:39, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Here is the Template:California/color. I have no clue how they went about it. Does Wikipedia have "color specialists" who we can reach out to? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Looking at what links to that template, I couldn't find any discussions about it. I asked a question on WikiTalk:California, maybe someone there can provide insight.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 02:04, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Someone asked a similar question in the archives and got an interesting response: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject California/Archive 6#Navbox color. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 18:23, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

@Jweiss11, Why do you say the best option is (a) and not (c)? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:52, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Option c has an awkward design. "Program" as a section heading doesn't make sense because whole navbox is about the program. All the other section are "program"-related too. And the link to the main program article is buried in the middle of the navbox. It should be the first link in the navbox. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:15, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

What if we just make used of Template:Colored link to underline "UCLA Bruins men's basketball" at the top and "Seasons" on the left? See: User:Jweiss11/sandbox/Template:UCLA Bruins men's basketball navbox. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:19, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Hm. That is a nice addition but not enough on its own. We have to scroll our cursor over the word to see the link which is not much of a problem for the "top bar" link but is for the "left-bar" link. Your reason why option (c) is not the best choice seems reasonable to me. If we just add the more visible "List of Seasons" in season section (which also shows a red link to indicate article creation needed) along with your Colored link change, that should be sufficient. Agreed? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 21:13, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Can I go ahead and add "List of Seasons" to season section and the color link? I ask because I am ready to go through the navboxes to add "Statistical leaders" and "Head Coaches" to the People section... easier if I complete all of this in a single edit. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 21:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm only speaking for me but I say go for it. Note that it's "Head coaches" not "Head Coaches" per MOSCAP. SportsGuy789 (talk) 21:36, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Comment: I completed this for Category:NCAA Division I men's basketball team navigational boxes. Still needs to be completed for the other divisions and sports. Category:American college sports team navigational boxes. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:41, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@BeFriendlyGoodSir: I randomly looked at one and saw that you added a red link to NBA draftees, e.g. List of Gonzaga Bulldogs in the NBA draft.[18] If you're going to encourage a standard with red links, I think the lists should be any NBA players from the school, including undrafted ones, not just draftees (some of whom never play in the NBA). Existing examples are at Category:Lists of college basketball players in the NBA.—Bagumba (talk) 05:13, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba, the NBA draft link idea came from Template:Arizona Wildcats men's basketball navbox which only has my format (Arizona NBA players redirects to NBA Draftees so maybe should be changed to your format?) and Template:Texas Longhorns men's basketball navbox which has both formats. I'll go back in a few and change it to "in the NBA" as you suggest. Only added it to maybe 30 of the schools which have at least 10 former+current NBA players. I also added "Statistical leaders" to every navbox. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:23, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba: - see above. BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

My initial concern was WP:EXISTING and red links on a navbox, especially when these pages (like the draftees/players) has no existing standard. There also the matter of stats lists and whether they are in line with WP:LISTN and WP:NOTSTATS. Sports projects get a bad rap for a proliferation of seemingly random stats lists sourced onlt (if at all) to a stats database, with little or no prose. —Bagumba (talk) 05:39, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

BTW there is also List of Drexel Dragons in the NBA draft, List of Georgetown Hoyas in the NBA and WNBA drafts, List of Michigan Wolverines in the NBA draft, List of Indiana Hoosiers in the NBA draft, List of Kentucky Wildcats in the NBA draft and countless other "NBA draft" articles...We can make the standard "in the NBA" and move some of the pages if they don't already have "in the NBA" pages? I don't view these as random stats lists though and I assume sourcing can be improved but haven't yet to save valuable volunteer time. The letter of the law is a murky land that can implicate any such lists. Based on sourcing, there are countless DI stat leaders articles that should be taken down then? If you want people to go to Basketball-Reference instead (assuming they know to look which they don't) then fine. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Based on sourcing, there are countless DI stat leaders articles that should be taken down then? One would need to perform WP:BEFORE first. I doubt if I'm going on a personal campaign to clean them up. However, nobody should be surprised if anyone happens to contest those types of pages with WP:AFDs. Regards. —Bagumba (talk) 06:40, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

If you want people to go to Basketball-Reference instead...: For some things they should. It's not a case of all or nothing though. We keep WP:LISTN notable topics. —Bagumba (talk) 06:45, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

See Montana State Bobcats men's basketball statistical leaders and others which you wouldn't think is a quality basketball school but still has the article and seemingly sufficient sourcing to support. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:57, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

None of those cited sources would satisfy WP:LISTN. Perhaps others exist. —Bagumba (talk) 06:42, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Kyle Neptune

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Kyle Neptune#Gameday attire, which is within the scope of this WikiProject. There is still a deadlock on whether the content is undue or not. —Bagumba (talk) 05:06, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Mid-90s lower Division All-America/Academic All-America issue

I am at work on User:TonyTheTiger/sandbox/Kasey Morlock since she is the mother of a current Michigan Wolverines men's basketball player. I am trying to understand what exactly a source is saying. March 23, 1995 The Bismarck Tribune article titled "Fans can flock to Mallard, Pheasant, Loon, Owl games" by Abe Winter says, "Kasey Morlock, a 6-1 sophomore center from Stewartville, Minn., was named to the CoSIDA NCAA II All-America first team. It's the first time the sports information directors selected the team"

CoSIDA has been selecting Academic All-America teams with academic considerations since 1952. It seems that in the mid 1990s separate recognitions began for lower Division athletes. I am personally not aware of whether the term Academic All-America has always been used or whether there may have been a time when All-America team by CoSIDA may have implied Academic All-America. Many sources say she was only an All-America selection in 1997. So I am trying to understand what this CoSIDA 1995 recognition was all about.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:00, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

• Further on Morlock. I always seem to notice people tinkering with infobox specifics on my articles. This one could probably use a once over.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:30, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
  • User:SportsGuy789, thanks for stopping in. Come to think of it, I don't see Today's Top VIII Award in infoboxes, but I don't know why. I am a bit surprised that you removed "25th Anniversary NCAA DII basketball team (2006)". I see a lot of decade and anniversary teams in infoboxes.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:27, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
    • @SportsGuy789:-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Template:Men's Basketball Academic All-America of the Year

I have noticed that there are a handful of non-DI players who have become notable enough to have their own articles at List of Men's Basketball Academic All-America Team Members of the Year. They are marginally notable. Should we make this template 2 sections with a bottom section that include only the notable non-DI athletes? Currently the list of athletes includes Riley Minix, Kyle Mangas, and Jimmy Bartolotta. Or should we just leave the template alone?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide a mock-up of what you're envisioning? SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:55, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I would like to see a mock up too but am open to it if we only add notable lower division players and don’t try to list them all. Rikster2 (talk) 18:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I would leave it alone unless there were more than a handful of notable lower division players. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 21:11, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

• Here is the mockup: User:TonyTheTiger/sandbox/Men's Basketball Academic All-America of the Year.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:33, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Aside from still needing to remove "Division I" from the navbox title link, I'm more worried adding non-DI players will open a can of worms. A drive-by editor will think the template is incomplete and want to add in the rest, many of whom aren't notable. SportsGuy789 (talk) 21:35, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, probably 2 of the 3 non-D1 articles should not exist, but since they do, I was just wondering if we should link them. BTW, I fixed the title.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

eh, I would say the Minix and Mangas articles clearly meet GNG. I could go either way on Bartolotta. Rikster2 (talk) 15:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Others should weigh in on this too but my inclination is to leave the navbox DI only. SportsGuy789 (talk) 17:59, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Frances Pomeroy Naismith Award – when was it restricted to just DI?

I noticed that someone a while ago added Division I season links for the men's and women's charts, but by doing so it implies that only DI players were eligible that season and those links should be removed (e.g. there's a DI link for 1969–70 but John Rinka of DIII Kenyon won).

What was the year that the NABC restricted it to just DI? SportsGuy789 (talk) 20:52, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

The restriction is in the prose but unsourced. FWIW, it was added in 2010 by Jrcla2. —Bagumba (talk) 04:42, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I've been looking up the award in a lot of different newspapers.com sources, and the only thing all of them have said is that the award is given to the nation's best players under 6' and 5'8", it had nothing to do with Division. I'm going to remove the hyperlinked Division I seasons as well as that unsourced sentence. SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

"Final Polls" in season articles

For the last three seasons the final AP and coaches polls have been added to the season article. I think these are useful but right now they sit under the preseason polls in the "season outlook" section, which is not the right place for them. Any suggestions for where they should go? I would probably recommend under "regular season" above any other content. As an aside, I think we might want to look at these articles, their structure and maybe guidelines or standards. Per my previous comments about the 50+ item "upsets" table, the articles have gotten very long and difficult to peruse with all the extra stuff added. Thoughts? Rikster2 (talk) 16:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

2022–23 UConn Huskies men's basketball team has a "Rankings" section. Perhaps do the same? Coaches poll includes tourney play.—Bagumba (talk) 06:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

So does the AP as of this year Rikster2 (talk) 11:48, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Conference season article formats

I am participating in WP:CUP this year. I am trying to score a lot of WP:GA points. I am being asked to change some things around that I am not so sure about. User:AirshipJungleman29 is reviewing me at Talk:2018–19 Big Ten Conference men's basketball season/GA1. I have asked whether he really prefers 2008–09_Big_Ten_Conference_men's_basketball_season#Preseason rather than 2018–19_Big_Ten_Conference_men's_basketball_season#Preseason, but what I think matters is what this group prefers. Can I get some feedback on table presentation.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:31, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

If the standard is for GA, I'd expect some prose instead of just pure tables. Preseason sources generally have some analysis of the picks, at the very least for the conference favorites and presumably for POY too.—Bagumba (talk) 08:08, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm with Bagumba. For GA, prose is preferable. As for me personally, I also happen to think that the prose is better. SportsGuy789 (talk) 14:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

25th Anniversary NCAA teams

I have been working on a member of the 25th Anniversary NCAA DII basketball team (Draft:Kasey Morlock) and a member of the 25th Anniversary NCAA DIII basketball team (Draft:Alia Fischer). These were teams that were voted on in celebration of the first 25 years of NCAA championships for women's DII & DIII basketball. These are teams of the five greatest players over the 25 years from 1981-2006. I am not sure why "25th Anniversary NCAA DII basketball team (2006)" was removed from the infobox. Basketball had a lot of 25th and 50th anniversary team mentions in infoboxes. I've seen them for NBA, WNBA, and Euroleague to name a few. Is it right to remove these from infoboxes.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

What is the standard these days and why? When was it removed from the infobox, "25th Anniversary NCAA DII & DIII basketball team"? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC]]

I had asked for someone to give the infobox a once over and User:SportsGuy789 responded with this edit at Draft:Kasey_Morlock.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:42, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, I'm not opposed to the inclusion of these types of anniversary teams being included in college basketball players' infoboxes. My line in the sand is, there needs to be fleshed out, sourced, good list-articles already created for said anniversary team(s) before adding to the infobox. We want to avoid listing non-linked achievements in the infoboxes because it'll open up a can of worms to drive-by editors thinking that "anything goes" for infobox inclusion (e.g. All-SI.com 2000s Team). SportsGuy789 (talk) 14:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

That is a line that I understand. Given these are 5-player/1-coach lists and I am not seeing players other than those I have created with articles, I will let this issue go.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:34, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Not all links belong in highlights either, but an entry should be linkable to at least demonstrate that the honor itself is notable. —Bagumba (talk) 15:57, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Template:NCAA Division III women's basketball tournament navbox missing only one tournament

FYI, Template:NCAA Division III women's basketball tournament navbox is only missing 1997 NCAA Division III women's basketball tournament for completion.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:49, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

• Of all men's and women's tournaments in D1, D2 and D3, this is the only missing tournament.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:54, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
  • I will award a barnstar for the creation of this page.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:43, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

    Working on it. This will take me a couple days probably. Let you know when it's finished. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:13, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

    • • I should be clear. I said it was the only missing article. I did not check the templates to make sure none of the blue links were redirects.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
        • I visited the categories and this is the only missing D1, D2 or D3 men's or women's tournament.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:36, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

          @TonyTheTiger, Completed only missing D1, D2 or D3 men's or women's tournament (1997 NCAA Division III women's basketball tournament). - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

          It would be good to add some independent sources of significant coverage to demonstrate WP:GNG. Otherwise, someone might do a weak WP:BEFORE and nominate it for WP:AFD. —Bagumba (talk) 06:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

          Yes, independent sources have been added (New York Times and CBS News). I'll see what else I can dig up. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 06:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

          What is the purpose of the asterisks (*) in the 1996 NCAA Division III women's basketball tournament and all the other articles. I did not add it to 1997 because I do not know what they are used for. I assumed it meant the winning team but that was not always the case. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 07:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

          I'd try to track down the editor of that page (User:Wmtribe2015).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:12, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

          Wmtribe2015 replied. They said an asterisk by a team indicates the host of first and second round games AND an asterisk by a score indicates an overtime period. I'll go thru each year and add this as shown on 1997 NCAA Division III women's basketball tournament - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 02:41, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

          It is quite unconventional to use the same symbol (asterisk) to mean two different things on the same page. That needs to be changed. Do not copy that convention. Use 2 different symbols for the two meanings. Look on the DI pages to determine what are the conventional manners of designation. Don't make up your own. Mention to him that if he has used this convention on many pages that probably should be corrected.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

          Got it. Thanks, - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

          On the men's D1 article and the women's D1 article, asterisk means denotes overtime period. I have not found a symbol for the host of first and second round games outside of women's D3. Let you know if I do. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 04:53, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

          Did you go back to when early round D1 games were always hosted by one of the two teams. I think early 1980s or before.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

          1980 NCAA Division I basketball tournament#Bracket and 1975 also has asterisk only to denote overtime period. Should we remove asterisks that denote host of first and second rounds? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:08, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

          How many D2 and D3 tournaments were formated with double-meaning for the same symbol?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

          @Wmtribe2015:, please see the above discussion. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 05:01, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• (ec)Kudos. I may have made the request, but you are not doing this for me. It just does not make sense for us as a project to have 1 tournament missing from the set of D1, D2 & D3 men's and women's tournaments. Although there is very little work done outside of DI, we need to be complete. On behalf of the project I thank you for completing our set. BTW, ,on the talk page, I changed the project from WP:BBALL, which is for international basketball to WP:CBBALL, which is for college basketball. Neither WP:WSPORTS nor WP:CBBALL has a barnstar. Unless you have a strong barnstar preference, I will figure out an appropriate one.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:11, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Any barnstars are much appreciated, my first of hopefully many more to come!!! Thank you for pointing out that this needed fixing. - @TonyTheTiger - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 07:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  @TonyTheTiger, The Original Barnstar is perfectly fine :) - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 03:16, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Team roster template: full state name vs. postal code

There seems to be an inconsistency/internal disagreement whether to use the full state name or the state's postal code for a player's hometown--currently it seems just as an estimate to be somewhere between a 25/75 split and a 33/67 split in favor of postal code. I'm planning on starting the project to make it uniform but I just want to get a gauge of what you all think might be better. I consulted WP:MOS just to be sure and in the abbreviations subpage it mentions using full name in body text, postal codes being permitted for tables but needing to use a tag on the first instance of each state, but I don't see anything about templates, which to me feels kind of like a weird in-between? I'm leaning towards postal codes just for consistency with the recruiting charts above the roster templates (and I think overall it looks cleaner), but I just wanted to get some input before making as many changes as this will be (a ton of teams across a ton of years), as well as the fact that if I go the opposite way from what consensus would've been it'd be quite a lot to clean up (which I'd happily do myself as the maker of said mess, but it's better if avoided of course). Greenday61892 (talk) 22:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

A template is just a means to create a table, so consider it to be a table. As for the MOS, I'm not sure what is expected re: {{abbr}} if the city–state is wikilinked. Per MOS:STATEABBR:

They can be used in tables when space is tight but should be marked up with {{abbr}} template on first occurrence.

—Bagumba (talk) 02:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that was kind of what confused me as well. I'll give this at least a couple more days to see if I get more response and otherwise start probably Friday afternoon-ish. Greenday61892 (talk) 03:05, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm a fan of the postal code, personally. It's cleaner and it's considerate of the limited space in those roster templates. SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Just an FYI I have gone ahead and started taking care of this, in favor of postal abbreviations; I've done the first few teams needing the fix in the America East and I'm just gonna work my way through the conferences from the standings section of 2023–24 NCAA Division I men's basketball season. Was hoping to find a full alphabetical list (perhaps in a category) but this honestly is just as fine. As long as all teams are listed it works.

As an aside I'm intending on doing this for any game logs if they need them as well, though I didn't notice the issue with those, even on pages that used full state name in the roster template. Greenday61892 (talk) 01:21, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

A further aside, I realized I never actually added myself as a participant but that has been rectified, ha. Greenday61892 (talk) 01:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, leave them full if there's space. Helpful when readers not from a particular country. —Bagumba (talk) 02:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that makes sense. So far though I've yet to see one that doesn't spill over, just by nature of how much dang information is in those boxes, but if I see one that doesn't spill over I'll keep it as is. Greenday61892 (talk) 02:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I meant for the game logs. I think its a given space is short on the full roster listings.—Bagumba (talk) 03:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh! I see. Game logs are all entirely uniformly postal abbreviations, should they be changed? Greenday61892 (talk) 12:21, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I saw "game logs" and "full state name" in your comment As an aside I'm intending on doing this for any game logs...didn't notice the issue with those, even on pages that used full state name... but didn't process the ...in the roster template end. Basically, I mistakenly thought you meant gamelogs were already using full state name. But they aren't. The MOS is what it is. I'll leave it for you to decide how you wish to volunteer your time.—Bagumba (talk) 14:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I have also noticed this inconsistency in team season schedule tables. Just looking at Oklahoma and Oklahoma State alone.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 15:11, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Are you talking for this year or previous years? Because at a quick glance I'm not noticing that issue for either team you mentioned, at least for the last few seasons for either. Greenday61892 (talk) 01:18, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I changed the 90-91 today for example. It listed the entire state name instead of the abbreviation. I usually keep to the 20th century, they are more neglected across all sports generally. UCO2009bluejay (talk) 02:04, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd say if it's already expanded, and there's space, then let it be. But I'll leave it to your discretion. —Bagumba (talk) 02:25, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Scratch that. But then there's almost never space on a phone.—Bagumba (talk) 02:28, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Ah! Fair, I'm just going from the present-back. So after I eventually finish this season I'm going to start on 2022-23. Greenday61892 (talk) 02:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Professional career chronologies

User:DaHuzyBru & User:Rikster2 can you see if anything needs to be in the infoboxes for Craig Lathen and Martell Bailey. I do not recall if I ever inquired about these guys and am thinking about GA nominations for them for the WP:CUP.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I can check for CBA career tonight. Pretty sure I have looked for Lathen before. Bailey might have played too late for the CBA but you can check basketball-reference.com and see if he played in the G League. Rikster2 (talk) 13:51, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

There is no Eurobasket profile for Lathen. Bailey has a profile but it appears he never played professionally as there is no detail after University of Illinois at Chicago in 2003–04. DaHuzyBru (talk) 14:18, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I am surprised to see nothing professional for either guy so I am double checking whether I checked before. Maybe I did. Thanks for looking or looking again.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I have nothing on either player Rikster2 (talk) 03:57, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for checking guys.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

User:DaHuzyBru & User:Rikster2, Chris Hill (basketball), can you add any WP:ICs from WP:RS for prose in this professional chronology.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I have expanded it a little based off his Eurobasket profile. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

User:DaHuzyBru Do you have any sources that could be used to support prose regarding his international championships?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:24, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I can't find anything substantial with a quick search apart from euroleague profile, which states "Won the 2009-10 and 2010-11 Belgian National Championship with Spirou Charleroi". DaHuzyBru (talk) 00:12, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

2024-25 Assistant coaching limits

At Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_College_Basketball/Archive_10#4_or_5_Assistant_coaches, User:CalDoesIt presented a July 1, 2023 rule change that allowed up to 5 assistant coaches. As I watch Dusty May fill out his staff, they talk as if he is still limited to 3 assistants and the next hire would fill out the staff. Are they going back to 3 next year?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)