Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball

WikiProject Baseball
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Split discussion at Baltimore Elite Giants

There is a discussion underway about possibly splitting the Baltimore Elite Giants into the Cleveland Cubs as 2 distinct teams. If interested, please join in at Talk:Baltimore Elite Giants#1931 season: Cleveland Cubs/Nashville Elite Giants. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 04:40, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Disambiguation for managers

I noticed the title Dave Roberts (baseball manager), while WP:NCBASEBALL shows an example to use the shorter Fred Thomas (manager) (which now redirects to Fred Thomas (baseball manager). A search shows that all (manager) titles for baseball redirect to (baseball manager). Should this existing practice be updated in the guideline? Initially, I thought it was longer than needed, unless there were other manager bios by that name, but if that's what we're already consistently doing... —Bagumba (talk) 13:58, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I updated the guideline to show Fred Thomas (baseball manager) instead. —Bagumba (talk) 05:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

"has previously played" vs "has also played"

I've been thinking about the way the current player articles are written in the lead... Player X plays for Team Y in Major Legaue Baseball (MLB). He has previously played in MLB for Team Z, Team A, etc.... Not sure using "previously" is proper ... some times its actually inaccurate in situations like Matt Carpenter who started with the Cardinals and then played for a couple of other teams and then came back to the Cards... so saying he plays for the cards and previously played for the Yankees is actually wrong.. cause he was with the Cards first. I think "has also played for" makes more sense to keep all current players consistent and avoid using previously.. Spanneraol (talk) 00:41, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I feel it's still accurate to say that Matt Carpenter previously played for the Yankees and Padres, even if he also had a previous tenure with the Cardinals. I'm not a fan of dictating that there be only one form for listing a player's teams. In a case like Carpenter where most of his career is with one team, for instance, the text could be something like "After debuting with the Cardinals and playing for them from 2011 to 2021, Carpenter played for the Yankees and the Padres, before returning to the Cardinals in 2024." isaacl (talk) 02:29, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

"plays for the cards" is dealing with his current stint, so saying previously played for NYY in that context is OK. It becomes a problem when he retires, then saying "previously" w.r.t. the Yankees might be incorrect if its ambiguous which STL stint is being referred to. I agree that we're never going to get a cookie-cutter one size fits all format, but editors should be aware of the gotchas of using various wordings. —Bagumba (talk) 01:11, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Notice of multiple RMs related to Major League Baseball

There is a bundle of requested moves related to changing the titles of articles from "Major League Baseball" → "MLB". You may wish to provide your input at Talk:Major League Baseball#Requested move 14 April 2024. - Skipple ☎ 03:35, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Ghost runner, automatic runner, etc.

Can't find almost anything about the extra inning ghost runners when, after discussing it with a friend, just assumed Wikipedia would have an article about them. Sometimes called "automatic runner", which has not page or redirect. Anybody else notice the absence of an important baseball article? As a position player the ghost runner should have a page. But even Rules of baseball has nothing about it. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

We do mention it at Extra innings#Major League Baseball, but it should probably be more places than it is. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Extra innings § Regular season (which is a subsection of Extra innings § Major League Baseball) has a description. Although "ghost runner" is used in by some, the MLB term "automatic runner" avoids confusion with the playground term, where "ghost runners" are used when just a few people are playing together and so a runner may have to go to bat. Personally, I don't think a separate article is warranted, but having a description in Baseball rules is probably worthwhile (it already contains league-specific info for games tied after nine innings). isaacl (talk) 23:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

"ghost runner" is inaccurate since there is an actual runner not a "ghost". I still absolutely hate the rule cause i'm a traditionalist and I really enjoy the long extra inning games... I still remember attending a Dodgers/Braves game at Dodger Stadium in 1996 that went 18 innings..[1] Ramon Martinez came in to pitch in relief on like two days rest and pitched four innings before coughing up the go-ahead run.. but it was a fun time. Spanneraol (talk) 00:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it sounds odd to anyone who has used ghost runners when playing a game with a few friends, as it's kind of the opposite intent: real runners are placed on base who didn't bat, versus taking runners who did bat off the bases. isaacl (talk) 00:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps an entry at Glossary of baseball terms with a redirect for the term to there? —Bagumba (talk) 01:03, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd suggest that a full article is warranted by the fact that the runner, whatever the term, is now a mandated offensive position player. And all position players have articles. "Ghost runner" seems to be one of the common names, I think because the runner just "pops in" without any physical reason to be there. Harvey Haddix is turning over on his mound. Since I don't keep track of modern baseball, and the new rules have made it into a different game, I came looking for the ghost runner Wikipedia article and found there was none. Just would put up a stub if I started it, so someone who is good at creating pages and likes the subject maybe should go for it, and then we'll see what the page looks like. When I came looking for it it was to find out (hopefully in its lead), the history of the rule, if the runner gets credit for a run scored if driven in, and does the batter get credit for an RBI? And does it count in the ERA and won-lost record of the pitcher scored against? But most of all, the question I'd ask the commissioner, who likely had final yes-no rule approval, "Why did you ignore first base?". Randy Kryn (talk) 03:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Could go from glossary to an article too. Depends if someone wants to create a stub or not, if they're not ready to put together a decent size article. As for 1B, 2B can only speed up games more, which is their current objective.—Bagumba (talk) 04:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

An Automatic runner stub sounds easy (too easy, some good images come to mind, and the page should probably include a criticism section). Thinking about it, the ghost seems to be only the second offensive mandated player in the game (the other one being the Batter), so a stand-alone article seems appropriate. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

• Could someone else please start an Automatic runner stub? There are plenty of sources, many when searching "Automatic runner" (Here's one from the Sporting News). I just learned a few minutes ago that the pitcher is not charged for an earned run when the ghost/automatic runner scores, which goes to my level of understanding of the topic and why, in addition to my general dislike of the rule change, someone who knows its history and elements should start the page, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:58, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not convinced it needs a standalone article. For the time being, I've created a redirect to Extra innings#Regular season, but anyone should feel free to replace it with a stub article. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 15:08, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Federal League and the 7 Negro Major Leagues in the MLB seasons pages (+4 19th century leagues?)

So I've jumped the gun in separating the Federal League from the 1914 & 1915 seasons when I should have discussed it here first. When I split the pages before, I made separate Federal League 1914 & 1915 pages, so the information hasn't been lost.

Previous format before my edits:

• Major League Baseball season pages (only 1901–present) contained:

• National League (NL) (1901–present)
• American League (AL) (1901–present)
• Federal League (FL) (1914–1915)

• Major leagues not considered for season pages:

• National League (NL) (1876–1900)
• American Association (AA) (1882–1891)
• Union Association (UA) (1884)
• Players' League (PL) (1890)
• Negro National League I (NNL) (1920–1931)
• Eastern Colored League (ECL) (1923–1928)
• American Negro League (ANL) (1929)
• East–West League (EWL) (1932)
• Negro Southern League (NSL) (1932)
• Negro National League II (NNL) (1933–1948)
• Negro American League (NAL) (1937–1948)

Sites such as baseball-reference.com consider the Federal League and 7 Negro Major Leagues as major league (as well as the several 1876–1900 leagues), as this is what MLB considers true. It should be noted that there is a distinction between leagues being considered major league, and the organization known as "Major League Baseball". To add to the confusion, MLB includes Federal League stats on its stat pages, but the Federal League is not listed on the standings nor schedule pages. However, (assumingly due to incomplete records), the 1920–1948 Negro Major League stats are nowhere to be found. I tend to believe that the Federal League stats are on MLB's website because many of their players were of the AL or NL before and after the Federal League's existence.

There's the fact that MLB as a North American league has a unique history compared to say, professional football or basketball. With football, the NFL and AFL were always completely separate entities until 1970, when they merged and saw the formation of the NFC and AFC, under the umbrella of NFL. The lines between Major League Baseball were always blurred to some degree from the 1903 National Agreement until the legal merger of the NL & AL into one organization in 2000.

Jhn31 and I had been talking on my talk page (thanks to Jhn31, I was made aware of previous discussion), and I'm going to copy/paste my thoughts (and expand a little) on the matter (Jhn31, I don't want to copy/paste your words, so if you want to reiterate here that'd be great!).

I'm personally of the belief that we should follow one of the two extremes:

• MLB season pages should strictly be for the NL and AL (and in fact, the 1901 & 1902 pages should be separate NL & AL pages à la AFL & NFL 1967–1969 seasons even though Super Bowl I-III took place these seasons), as any proper cooperation between the AL and NL didn't begin until 1903 with the National Agreement. "Major League Baseball" as an organization did not exist in any sense before 1903.
• All leagues 1876–present that are considered major league should be included on season pages à la baseball-reference.com. Granted, I'd be tempted to make a distinction where any pre-1903 seasons are "1### Major league baseball season", where only the first word is capitalized since the all-caps "Major League Baseball" refers to the proper organization.

To make things even more confusing, MLB celebrates 1869 as the inaugural Major League season (even though its website is only dedicated to go back to 1901), a year that pre-dates even the 1871–1875 NA, which has its major league status in question (though I guess this is really just referencing the Cincinnati Red Stockings as the first professional baseball team). I personally like the first extreme much more than the second, as it has season pages dedicated to leagues as they existed at the time. It feels the most proper.

Separate from the Federal League issue, all of the major leagues from 1876 to present should, in my opinion be contained in some form of season pages, instead of just being redirects to "1### in baseball" pages. Spesh531^{(talk, contrib., ext.)} 04:35, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

To echo my comments from 2022, the Federal League is a definite Yes, as MLB considers it a "major" league, counts statistics as part of player's MLB career records, the Hall of Fame includes Federal League teams played on (but not minor or international leagues), and reference sites include it in the statistics. I think the Federal League standings and stats leaders umabiguously belong on the 1914 and 1915 season articles. I prefer taking it a step further and including all "major" leagues on the respective season pages, since that aligns with MLB's preferences and sites like Baseball Reference, which is going to be the source of much of the standings, awards, and statistical information found on the pages anyway. Perhaps there could be a standard paragraph on each page from 1920 to 1948 stating that MLB has only considered the Negro leagues to be "major" since 2020. Jhn31 (talk) 04:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll add one thing to my comment by referencing something I said in the past: These MLB Hall of Fame plaques don't mention non-MLB accomplishments, but all 3 of which mention the Federal League: Eddie Plank Edd Roush Joe Tinker. Or the Baseball Reference pages for 1914 or 1915 which list the Federal League as part of the "Major Leagues." Or the ESPN pages for 1914 and 1915. Or Fangraphs. If MLB says so, the Hall of Fame says so, media sources say so, trusted references that drive so many MLB articles on Wikipedia say so... then Wikipedia should reflect that. I feel like it's outside the mission of Wikipedia for editors to decide that despite the primary and secondary source material saying one thing, that we feel like it should actually go in a different direction. Jhn31 (talk) 05:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Indeed as I noted in 2022 & note again, the Federal League should be excluded from the 1914 & 1915 MLB season pages, because the Federal League champion didn't participate in the World Series. GoodDay (talk) 05:03, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

And whether it's 2022 or 2024, that's a completely arbitrary distinction that you made up. As Wikipedia editors, we must follow the sources and not inject our own opinions about how things "should" be here. Jhn31 (talk) 05:07, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't have the authority to delete the FL records from the 1914 & 1915 MLB seasons pages. Merely re-stating that I support their deletion from those two pages. GoodDay (talk) 13:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

"were" vs "was" for describing former teams

we seem to have a mismatch of "was" vs "were" in describing former teams. see New York Giants (baseball), for instance (were) vs Chicago Pirates (was). I assume "were" is correct just based on the number of teams in the Players' League with this description? Therapyisgood (talk) 14:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Should treat team names as plural per MOS:PLURALS:

In North American English...the major exception is that when a sports team is referred to by its short name, plural verbs are commonly used, e.g. the Heat are playing the Lakers tonight.

—Bagumba (talk) 15:13, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Removing debut and final fields from Infobox baseball biography

I wanted to propose removing the fields for debut game and last game played from the {{Infobox baseball biography}} template. It unnecessarily adds vertical height to the infobox with a minimum of 4 table rows (debut game label, debut game date, final game label, final game date), and for some players like Ichiro who played in multiple leagues, there can be 6 rows — all just so we have a begin date and end date to their career. Secondly, it's essentially duplicative with the teams parameter that shows the years that the player spent with each team, and in the grand scheme of things, there isn't much value added from knowing the month and day they started or ended their career. Thirdly, I don't see any sportsman infoboxes other than cricket that allow specific dates to be provided for the debut and finale of one's career (for cricket, it's only for international competition), so this would be consistent with most other sports. What do other people think? Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 15:01, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I think in baseball specific dates for these debut dates are more notable than in other sports that have less games...like football or basketball... and it tends to be mentioned a lot in reliable sources... so I would be opposed to removing that item from the infobox. Spanneraol (talk) 15:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I do not feel this information is essential for a concise overview of the key characteristics of a player, which is my personal rule of thumb for infobox contents, so I agree with removing it. It's not clear to me that having a longer season is a consideration in evaluating the essential nature of the info. isaacl (talk) 16:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with this, it's incredibly useful information to have in order to see the length and scope of a player's career, and baseball players more than any other sport can start or end their careers at different points of the season. It's especially useful for players who aren't necessarily all stars. SportingFlyer T·C 17:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

How are you not able to determine the length or scope of someone's career from the teams played for list? It gives a sequential list of the teams the person played for and years of their tenure. If you want to know when their career started and ended, look at the first and last teams played for in the list. How is baseball any different from other pro sports in terms of when during a season someone's career may start or end? Injuries, call-ups, and signings/releases are not unique to baseball. There is no reason I need to know Joe Schmoe debuted in MLB on June 2, 1959, in the infobox. Knowing he debuted in 1959 is sufficient for an infobox, which is meant to be a high level summary of the person, and the year can already be gleaned from info elsewhere in the infobox. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 18:33, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm undecided, but I thought it might be helpful to illustrate the difference with and without. I chose Ichiro. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Ichiro's current infobox
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Ichiro Suzuki Ichiro with the Seattle Mariners in 2011 Right fielder Born: (1973-10-22) 22 October 1973 Nishikasugai-gun, Aichi, Japan Batted: Left Threw: Right Professional debut NPB: 11 July, 1992, for the Orix BlueWave MLB: 2 April, 2001, for the Seattle Mariners Last appearance NPB: 13 October, 2000, for the Orix BlueWave MLB: 21 March, 2019, for the Seattle Mariners NPB statistics Batting average .353 Hits 1,278 Home runs 118 Runs batted in 529 Stolen bases 199 MLB statistics Batting average .311 Hits 3,089 Home runs 117 Runs batted in 780 Stolen bases 509 Teams Orix BlueWave (1992–2000) Seattle Mariners (2001–2012) New York Yankees (2012–2014) Miami Marlins (2015–2017) Seattle Mariners (2018–2019) Career highlights and awards NPB 7× All-Star (1994–2000) Japan Series champion (1996) 3× Pacific League MVP (1994–1996) 7× Golden Glove Award (1994–2000) 7× Best Nine Award (1994–2000) 2× Matsutaro Shoriki Award (1994, 1995) 7× Pacific League batting champion (1994–2000) Pacific League RBI leader (1995) Pacific League stolen base leader (1995) MLB 10× All-Star (2001–2010) AL MVP (2001) AL Rookie of the Year (2001) 10× Gold Glove Award (2001–2010) 3× Silver Slugger Award (2001, 2007, 2009) 2× AL batting champion (2001, 2004) AL stolen base leader (2001) MLB record 262 hits, single season Seattle Mariners Hall of Fame Medals Men's baseball Representing Japan World Baseball Classic 2006 San Diego Team 2009 Los Angeles Team

Ichiro's infobox without debut and final dates
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Ichiro Suzuki Ichiro with the Seattle Mariners in 2011 Right fielder Born: (1973-10-22) 22 October 1973 Nishikasugai-gun, Aichi, Japan Bats: Left Throws: Right NPB statistics Batting average .353 Hits 1,278 Home runs 118 Runs batted in 529 Stolen bases 199 MLB statistics Batting average .311 Hits 3,089 Home runs 117 Runs batted in 780 Stolen bases 509 Teams Orix BlueWave (1992–2000) Seattle Mariners (2001–2012) New York Yankees (2012–2014) Miami Marlins (2015–2017) Seattle Mariners (2018–2019) Career highlights and awards NPB 7× All-Star (1994–2000) Japan Series champion (1996) 3× Pacific League MVP (1994–1996) 7× Golden Glove Award (1994–2000) 7× Best Nine Award (1994–2000) 2× Matsutaro Shoriki Award (1994, 1995) 7× Pacific League batting champion (1994–2000) Pacific League RBI leader (1995) Pacific League stolen base leader (1995) MLB 10× All-Star (2001–2010) AL MVP (2001) AL Rookie of the Year (2001) 10× Gold Glove Award (2001–2010) 3× Silver Slugger Award (2001, 2007, 2009) 2× AL batting champion (2001, 2004) AL stolen base leader (2001) MLB record 262 hits, single season Seattle Mariners Hall of Fame Medals Men's baseball Representing Japan World Baseball Classic 2006 San Diego Team 2009 Los Angeles Team

Strong oppose, no real reason for removal given, and the start/end dates are perfectly valid to have in the infobox; in Ichiro's case the infobox is hardly any smaller. It feels like everything these days is a solution in search of a problem. Wizardman 21:25, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see a compelling reason for removal. I share Spanneraol's perception of debut dates as being more significant in baseball than in other sports. Agree that this looks like a solution in search of a problem. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:39, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I don't feel baseball to be an outliner with regards to debut dates versus debuts in leagues for other sports, such as the NHL for hockey. Midseason call ups, injury replacements, playoff pushes, and the end of college seasons, for example, are common reasons in the NHL that spread out debuts throughout the season. This information is indeed important within the article text to describe a player's career. I just don't feel it to be sufficiently key to meet my personal rule of thumb for inclusion in the infobox. isaacl (talk) 22:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

MLB.com and all baseball stat sites list the first appearance in the key info on their pages.. That is not the case for any other sport.. where it is hard to even find that info.. so yes it is more notable. Spanneraol (talk) 23:51, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Sites have game log information for NHL players, for instance, so it's not hard to find out the information. isaacl (talk) 00:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

It's buried under other menus.. not positioned prominently in those other sports. Spanneraol (talk)

Sure, that was just in response to your statement that it's "hard to even find that info". Stat sites put all sorts of stuff up front. For example, Baseball Reference includes nicknames, but the consensus here is not to put nicknames in the infobox. English Wikipedia can have different standards for inclusion. isaacl (talk) 00:54, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, Basketball Reference has the debut,[2] similarly collapsed like in Baseball Reference. —Bagumba (talk) 05:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the above suggestions that debut dates are more significant than in other sports. It seems worth noting that the Sports Reference sites appear to agree - Baseball-Reference does include a player's debut and final games in the block of information at the top of a player's page ([3]), but the sites for pro football, basketball, and hockey don't do that: [4], [5], [6]. Egsan Bacon (talk) 23:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

• I never look at the debut date section of the infobox. I would just look in the list of teams played for and that has the dates played in parenthesis [Orix BlueWave (1992–2000) ... Seattle Mariners (2018–2019)]. I've always been satisfied with just the year and not the month and day. The infobox, to me, is for an overview and the specific dates can go in the text. YMMV. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 04:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Analysis of other sites I looked at the stats links at Mariano Rivera § External links:

Site analysis

Site	Debut	Last
MLB	Yes	No
ESPN	No	No
Baseball Reference	Collapsed	Collapsed
Fangraphs	No	No
Retrosheet	Yes	Yes

—Bagumba (talk) 05:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)