Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Athletics/Archive 9

World Championships name change

It has been proposed that all "xxxx World Championships in Athletics" articles from 1976 would become "xxxx World Athletics Championships". Plese see and discuss Talk:2017_World_Championships_in_Athletics#Article_title_change. Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:53, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Nanjing 2020 cancelled due to coronavirus

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1089761/world-athletics-indoor-champs-threat

According to Inside the Games, the upcoming 2020 World Athletics Indoor Championships will no longer be taking place in Nanjing, China due to the ongoing coronavirus outbreak. There's fears that the event may be cancelled completely if a new host isn't found, though it's unclear whether they'll find one or just cancel the event altogether.

Conor M98 (talk) 16:52, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Non-World Athletics running disciplines

There are some niche forms of competitive running that have quite a following, but don't fall within the World Athletics definition of athletics: specifically tower running, skyrunning and snowshoe running. As forms of unaided competitive running, these comfortably sit within the definition of athletics in my opinion. What are other's thoughts on this? Just thinking if it's a fair thing to start adding Towerrunning World Championships, Skyrunning World Championships and World Snowshoe Championships to the relevant athletics lists and navigation templates. SFB 00:32, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

These things are so unstandardised and ad hoc that I would never look them up in wikipedia's. It are no sports I think. Even though they are called world championship. ;-) WeiaR (talk) 11:30, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

USA Indoor Championships

FYI - I have started a discussion for a page move at Talk:USA Track & Field Indoor Championships. The article base is split across different names so we need consensus for an agreed name. SFB 20:10, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Is this page a good idea?

I've got mixed responses from the help desk.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 16:25, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Furthermore, I've been leaving out records that have been taking away for drug violations. Do you agree with that?

Well, I'm sceptical. Medals from different competitions all together without distinction? And a page without sources? Where is this information coming from? The page title is not accurate, nor is a good idea to write "This is a list of notable sprinters." - you are only listing medalists. Pelmeen10 (talk) 15:35, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

@Pelmeen10:The information comes from the articles. Can you think of other notable sprinters that didn't win medals? The list can't include every sprinter with a Wikipedia article.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 16:07, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Addendum: I believe there should be a place on Wikipedia to look up the world's best sprinters, just as you might look up the world's best writers or movies. An objective qualification is good for this. Most of the sprinters with Wikipedia articles are just not good enough. I hope to add a column for world records held after the rest of the table is done.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 16:27, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Is the Continental/ IAAF World Cup considered prestigious

I thought it was important because it's an IAAF event (although it's recently been discontinued). However, many athletes who won medals in the IAAF Continental Cup don't have it in their medal boxes. So I'm wondering if it should be included in lists such as this: Draft:List of British medalist sprinters. —Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 18:33, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

When it started it was arguably the most prestigious global event after the Olympics but it faded in glamour dramatically with the introduction of the World Championships, especially when that event switched to a two year rotation from four. Personally I think it's worth inclusion though. Topcardi (talk) 20:48, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for responding. I will work on adding it to athletes' medalboxes. Then I will include it, unless someone else disagrees.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 21:49, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

@Naddruf: Prestige-wise, Topcardi summed it up well and I agree it would be important enough. Not convinced, though, that it was an event that the concept of "medals" really applied to. I don't think it ever had a gold/silver/bronze notion; individual winners were just winners, not gold medalists, second-placers were just second-placers. An American analogue would be the NCAA championships; it's a high-quality meet and you do sometimes get oddball mentions of NCAA "gold medalists" and "bronze medalists", but there are no actual medals involved and "NCAA champions" is far more common terminology. Sideways713 (talk) 04:45, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Sideways713: Does that mean they shouldn't go in infoboxes with a medal next to them?—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 14:15, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I can see that going either way. In the most literal sense I think it's a mistake to treat them as medals. ([1], for example, explicitly makes the point that there were no medals.) On the other hand, if you look at say Mike Boit's medal box it includes his "silver" from the 1977 IAAF World Cup in Düsseldorf, and it does feel like a pity to wipe that out since it's certainly way up there as a noteworthy race and accomplishment. Having missed the 1976 Olympics to the boycott, that was his one opportunity to meet the champion, Juantorena, on the highest stage with them both in peak form; and he pushed Juantorena to the limit. I think the German wiki excludes World/Continental Cup results from infoboxes, but I have no strong opinion on whether we should follow suit. Sideways713 (talk) 04:25, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

• @Naddruf: Delayed response here but I think you are pointing in the right direction that we are missing lists of international medalists for nations. There are very few model articles for that at the moment, but if you look at Category:National athletics teams you can see this information on international appearances and medals is gathered at national level on articles like Algeria national athletics team.
• A list of all international medallists is unwieldy at event level as hundreds of athletes win international medals in a given event every year. It is worth considering how best to present this data. There is also the start of a tradition of national performances at specific competitions (e.g. Greece at the World Athletics Indoor Championships) as well as coverage of specific events at specific championships (e.g. 100 metres at the World Championships in Athletics). These approaches tend to be much more manageable by size.
• It is important to remember that athletics is difficult to cover concisely because unlike other sports it is actually a grouping of many sports all together. While it's easy enough to gather detail on, say, ski mountaineering (currently 48 articles on World Champions in that sport) gathering a list of athletics medalists is much harder – there are over 700 article on winners at one specific athletics world championship alone. SFB 01:52, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

2003 world indoor championships

Results in the Women's High Jump are partially wrong.

Qualifying started at 1.87m and the final started at 1.88m. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmak76 (talk • contribs) 14:46, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

National Record Question

Hi all, style question here. In an athlete's info box, if a PB was a national record when it was set, but now isn't, should it keep the NR next to the time? I've been tidying Polat Kemboi Arıkan, and his times were national records when they were set but have now been superceded. Red Fiona (talk) 23:25, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

IMO, the NR (any record) note is not necessary in the infobox at all, it's not an essential information. The records he set should be mentioned in prose (if possible, add when was the records superceded etc). Many articles have a wikitable under the section "Personal bests". In those cases I don't think it's necessary to remove NR note when the records were superceded. Pelmeen10 (talk) 21:22, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Statistics section, updated

Greetings, For Athletics WP, I added progression, pie graph, rainbow; added wikilinks "Quality operations" log and "Popular pages". JoeNMLC (talk) 18:02, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Jimmy Adar at AfD

Please see this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 08:30, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Annie de Jong-Zondervan

I created the page about female athlete Annie de Jong-Zondervan (born 1907) because she was a notable speed skater. But I see see was even more notable as a athlete. She is seen as an important athlete in Dutch athlete history (not yet mentioned in article; but according to the page in Dutch). I continue in writing about speed skating, but if someone is interested please continue with expanding the article. SportsOlympic (talk) 21:09, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

World/Olympic medallists in discipline pages

Hi Project. I was looking at a couple of articles on athletics disciplines and was surprised that these included full listings of all of the Olympics and World Champs medallists. This is just replicating information on the corresponding articles - e.g 400 metres contains info that is a direct facsimile of content on 400 metres at the Olympics and 400 metres at the World Championships in Athletics (though curiously there isn't a 400 metres at the World Athletics Indoor Championships which has a table on the overall discipline article). In my opinion, it would be better to just link to the different championship articles rather than having this replication. Cripesohblimey (talk) 10:32, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

These medallist tables are transcluded on the articles, rather than duplicated so it's a feature rather than a bug. It is very common for readers to want to see the global medallists of an event at the main event page, and it's not something that has attracted criticism until your own comments here. The 400 metres page is not yet over-sized (< 50K currently) but it may be helpful to remove the lists in future if the article content increases substantially (we really should have the histories of the events in prose, but this is a project with a large history and scope but with a limited number of editors. Note that 400 metres at the World Athletics Indoor Championships is a valid red link, indeed it is an article that our French colleagues have already created at fr:400 mètres aux championnats du monde d'athlétisme en salle. They also have European medallists listed at fr:400 mètres aux championnats d'Europe d'athlétisme too, so again this shows the amount of work left to do! SFB 01:39, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Naming convention for sports stadia

A request for comment is open regarding the use of parenthetical disambiguation in relation to articles on sports stadia here: Wikipedia talk:Article titles#RfC Naming convention for sports stadia. Input is welcome. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 20:21, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Is a sponsor the same as a club?

In the article for runner Molly Seidel, the "club" attribute in the infobox is being used to identify her current sponsor. Clubs and sponsors don't seem equivalent to me, but there doesn't seem to be a better spot to indicate a sponsor. Is it not appropriate data for the infobox, or is it acceptable as-is, or something else? -- Fyrael (talk) 22:13, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Master world record progression articles

Hi. For years now, we have had a whole series of records on Masters world record progressions. These are often problematic for multiple reasons; lack of notability, poor sourcing, and wrong contents. Examples:

• Masters M55 100 metres hurdles world record progression is not a world record progression, as it goes from 1996 to 1994 to 1995 to 1989 to again 1996. The 1988 entry is not listed in the sources as a world record, it seems to be WP:OR by the article creator. The main source[2] seems to be a hobby project, not an official page from e.g. the IAAF.
• Masters W45 triple jump world record progression shows some unratified records: strangely, the source for the 2019 record gives a different distance for the unratified Glovil jump (12.42 vs. 12.39), and includes an even more impressive 12m75 by Tatyana Ter-Mesrobyan which is for some reason not included in the list.
• Masters M45 marathon world record progression is another nice example of WP:OR, with unsourced entries, entries which are sourced but deemed "incomplete information", and entries sourced to equally reliable or unreliable sources which are accepted as is.

Should this all be draftified, deleted, merged, ...? Fram (talk) 12:00, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Progression in athletes' biographies

As you can see in the manual of style it is recommended to insert a section for progression. However I underwent this rollback. Users of the project, I especially ask the more experienced @Sillyfolkboy: and @Trackinfo: how stay things? --Kasper2006 (talk) 18:29, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kasper2006 and Lugnuts: I've challenged that reversion as the statistics are presented well, not excessive, and context is clear. The purpose of WP:NOTSTATS is to avoid inclusion of large data sets with low relevance, or where they are so large as to be difficult to understand. A list of season's bests by an athlete does not have those issues. It is common for Wikipedia biographies on sportspeople to include year-by-year statistical summaries of a sportsperson's career (e.g. matches played, goals/points/runs scored etc.). A season's best time is simply the equivalent to that. That kind of data has long been unchallenged and is present on many prominent, well-reviewed articles, such as Usain Bolt#Season's bests.

I would suggest to make use of the Graph module on articles too, like the Bolt article does, as this makes the data easier to view. Sadly we also have to include the tables too because the Graph module does not allow for notation (or hover over) to show readers the underlying data point value on the graph. SFB 19:44, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Regardless of Usain Bolt having this data, for less-established athletes, it does read like someone is trying to post their CV into their wiki article. "Oh, wow, she ran 11.68 in 2011!" said no-one, ever. The personal best info is in the infobox, and that's all it needs to be. One time/stat, with a source, as the rest seems to be unnecessary bloat (or Bolt, ho ho). Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 07:53, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Proposal to rename the articles of an entire category

That is the Category:Year rankings in athletics from "year" in "event" to "year" "event" world top lists. Example: from 2011 in hammer throw to 2011 hammer throw world top lists. --Kasper2006 (talk) 06:46, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I suggest we refocus this set of articles as yearly summaries of athletics events, rather than simply the best performances of the year. That keeps the articles in line with the style set by articles like 2019 in the sport of athletics. I would recommend renaming the category Category:Year rankings in athletics to Category:Athletics events by year to reflect that scope, as demonstrated at 2019 in 100 metres. SFB 18:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Like --Kasper2006 (talk) 09:40, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Headercolor pink in Italian female athletes infobox

I don't know if diversifying the default headercolor for the biographies of the athletes is deprecated, ten years ago when I started putting it pink in the biographies of Italian female athletes I thought not. Now the biographies that have it are hundreds, but not all, because in three or four cases one user in particular has reverted every time for years. I ask the community how I should behave. I am willing to bring it to the default mustard color every time I meet the various biographies again if my favorite reverter is right, but I would eventually need someone's collaboration to do it massively in all of them. Otherwise we convince the user that the choice of the same color for a certain nationality of female athletes can be accepted. --Kasper2006 (talk) 04:27, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose systematically using pink for Italian female athletes' infobox. It's offensive. —valereee (talk) 17:17, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose not just pink for Italian athletes, but any colour for any individual. Pink for girls and I assume blue for boys? Hard to believe this is 2021. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 17:33, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: this pink colour associated with gender/sex is a nonsense.--Arorae (talk) 17:50, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose structural use of pink to highlight that athletes are female; not sure if offensive is the right word, but the stereotype is harmful enough to avoid it where possible. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 18:04, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
• It's hard to believe that someone younger than I am could have such an attitude. User:Kasper2006, do you really believe that such colour-coding is appropriate in a 21st-century encyclopedia? Or are you just trolling? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose and SNOWBALL close ASAP: I'm going with deeply offensive. Looking at a sample of the pages that Kasper2006 is editing, they are leaving the default color for men and changing the color to pink for women. This reinforces stereotypes, adds markedness, and implicates Wikipedia in old-school sexism. The people most likely to notice are editors, who might notice the discrepancy between multiple articles, and actions like this targeted against women play a part in gender bias on Wikipedia. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 19:11, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Oh finally! After 10 years I pointed this out to you, even I didn't like it, but once I started I wanted to standardize. Ok from tomorrow, now it's night here, I'll get to work to return to the default color--Kasper2006 (talk) 20:23, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Fixed the first 102 in this Category:Italian female sprinters Y . As I had already done a month ago, I ask if anyone would help me in this work, which would fix a situation that is at least ten years old and which I do not think I had even started, if anything I had only conformed and lately I had begun to abandon, creating the new biographies, see the last two in chronological order created by me on 25 April and 29 April. --Kasper2006 (talk) 05:30, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Articles as "United States at the YEAR World Athletics Relays"

@Arorae: @Sillyfolkboy: @Trackinfo: @Geschichte: @Pietaster: Since I created the United States at the World Athletics Relays article, I wanted to know if you think it is appropriate to continue creating the articles of the "country at games" of the single editions? Because a user has put a PROD to a first article of this type that I had created. Before I even objected, I chose to ask the project. Sorry if I tag someone, but otherwise, as happened recently, I would have no answers. --Kasper2006 (talk) 17:53, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kasper2006: The main "COUNTRY at COMPETITION" pages are a good idea because they are effectively spin-off articles from the national pages like United States national track and field team. As for edition-based pages, e.g. United States at the 2021 World Athletics Relays, I don't think that meets general notability because the coverage of each competition isn't high enough to warrant it.

Personally, I think building more articles at the "COUNTRY at COMPETITION" level makes most sense, for most nations, at most competitions, most of the time. That approach is much easier to navigate and maintain. For example, I don't really see much value in articles like Aruba at the 2017 World Championships in Athletics. Low volume info like that is better presented at Aruba at the World Athletics Championships. Possibly it might make sense to list national squads for an edition of major championships in a single article – similar to something like 2018 FIFA World Cup squads. SFB 22:08, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

I do agree with Sillyfolkboy. I do have great interest in Relays but the coverage is quite poor, even for main teams.--Arorae (talk) 22:39, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Sillyfolkboy: in may opinion what you say in the long run is not always valid. For the main teams it is not. If in a few editions of the event Italy (certainly not the USA or Jamaica) has an article of 16,382 bytes and not that much expanded, what do you think would happen in the long run? --Kasper2006 (talk) 07:53, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kasper2006: I think in the long run something like Italy at the World Athletics Relays becomes a large, fully fleshed out article with lots of detail, like England at the FIFA World Cup for example. The main point I'm making it that if someone nominates to delete an article like Italy at the 2015 IAAF World Relays, that nomination will probably be successful because it doesn't really meet any of the inclusion criteria for sports or articles in general. In contrast, I think there are many good arguments for keeping articles like Italy at the World Athletics Relays, which include numerous sources over many years. I understand the reason for creating Italy at the 2015 IAAF World Relays, from a coverage/data representation point of view, but it feels like it falls outside Wikipedia's article norms. SFB 01:58, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Most of the "* at the * Championships" articles are poorly maintained. They are a useful sorting of the results based on national team but our wikipedia performance is inconsistent. I tried maintaining a few over the years but it is quite cumbersome. Data between results pages does not align with the country pages so it is not an easy copy and paste job. Its actually an obnoxiously difficult alignment process for each performance. If we are going to retain these, lets create a consistent MoS so at a minimum it can be cut and paste. Frankly all of the formatting on the Athletics Championship articles if far too complex to expect anyone below an advanced editor to consider adding content to. It kind of defeats the openness of wikipedia editing. If it is going to be so complex, the let the complexity work for us. As I delve deeper into PHP, it would be better to make the data auto copy from page to page, probably not possible in wiki but its a goal to set forth. Such articles would also be a good place to discuss team issues but there is precious little coverage of it in media. As for 2021, I'm a Yank and USA didn't participate, along with most of the world leaders. Our coverage was non-existent so from a wikipedia perspective, there is little source material to work with. Trackinfo (talk) 05:35, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Title of the article European Team Championships

As you can see on the official website of the European Athletic Association, the official name of the competition is today European Athletics Team Championships. As can be seen from the logos of the various editions, the competition took on this new name starting from Gateshead 2013. It is necessary to proceed with the inversion of the redirect. And consequently to move the articles of the editions from 2013 to today. --Kasper2006 (talk) 04:10, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know how the user Arorae did the redirect reversal. The problem is that now there are hundreds of pages and categories to fix (and sub-pages, think of those of the Super League), in addition to all those of the editions from 2013 onwards. That's why I asked for the intervention of the community, because it takes someone more experienced than us who knows how to do this job through bots and not manually. --Kasper2006 (talk) 04:40, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Little Athletics Good Article Reassessment

Little Athletics, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. --Whiteguru (talk) 07:42, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Most viewed stub in this Wikiproject

• 129 Sandra Smith (reporter) 16,263 542 Stub Low
• 137 Kappa (brand) 15,015 500 Stub Low
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--Coin945 (talk) 13:59, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

RFC on flags

A RFC is underway which might have a considerable effect on the usage of flags in the articles in this WikiProject. Any input is welcome and you can join the RFC here.Tvx1 17:57, 2 June 2021 (UTC)