Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Anna Lee Fisher/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 22 December 2022 [1].
Anna Lee Fisher edit
- Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk) and Balon Greyjoy (talk)
This article is about Anna Fisher, one of the first six women selected to be astronauts by NASA in 1978. During her long and distinguished career at NASA, she was involved with the Space Shuttle, the International Space Station and the Orion spacecraft. This article is the fifth in the series about the first six women astronauts, following Sally Ride, Judith Resnik, Kathryn Sullivan and Rhea Seddon. Unlike those astronauts, Fisher has no biography, so its writing was more difficult. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:20, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
Comments from Harry edit
Not sure why this doesn't seem to be attracting much attention. Let's fix that.
- one of the astronauts supported vehicle integrated testing and payload testing at Kennedy Space Center. looks like a copy-editing error. One of the astronauts who supported?
- She was a CAPCOM from January 2011 to August 2013 that's the first mention of CAPCOM; the acronym needs a gloss.
- Her mother Elfriede had been born in Germany in 1918 but had emigrated → was born and lose the second had.
- when she was sixteen years old
- The two had returned to the United States lose the had again
- When she was in high school she did volunteer work at → volunteered at?
- published three article in the Inorganic Chemistry needs a copy edit
- But she saw others who had earned PhDs after six years of work but still could not find jobs, and decided to pursue medicine instead. Two "but"s in close proximity; you can probably just lose the first one.
- At the time, medicine was considered a "non-traditional" career for women Is that a quote or are those scare quotes?
- A quote. "As a woman in two non-traditional women's jobs". Had to look up the article on scare quotes. Things were different in Australia, where my own university graduated its first women doctors in 1891. While women were a minority of students, nearly half studied medicine. [2] While writing about the Great War period, I found that British women were surprised that that Australia had women doctors, and even more so that they were allowed to vote in the 1916 election. So although supported by the source, I didn't want to state it in Wikipedia's voice. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- the son of a United States Air Force colonel Sea of blue and neither link is directly relevant to the subject; perhaps lose the link to the USAF?
- At lunch one day he informed Bill, who was now her fiancée Whose fiancée?
- They had three weeks to assemble the required documents So they both applied? This isn't clear from the preceding text.
- She attended meetings of the astronauts' spouses Who did?
- Abbey decided that the five MDs of the 1978 and 1980 1978 and 1980 ... what? Also, no spaces with an emdash
- Fisher became pregnant while working as a Cape Crusader Can we reword this slightly so it doesn't sound like it happened during her NASA work?
- with pilot David M. Walker and mission specialists Fisher, Gardner and Joseph P. Allen Not a good use of "with" anyway but the sentence as-structured suggests that the latter two were jointly commanding.
- Fisher wanted to perform Capsule communicator (CAPCOM) Is capsule a proper noun here?
- they had gone ahead and launched the second one "gone ahead and" adds words but not meaning
- if they could retrieve one satellites, and a miracle if they could retrieve two Another gremlin. One satellite or one of the satellites?
- Dale Gardner had a son a few months older than Kristin, all the others had older children That's a comma splice
- so her daughter would know what her mother was like if Maybe shorten to just "in case"?
- on November 8, 1984, on what was Discovery's second mission Trim "what was"; more words for no added meaning again
- "by extraordinary exertions have contributed to the preservation of property from perils of all kind." MOS:LQ and you need a ref after a quote.
- It was to be commanded by Michael L. Coats, with John E. Blaha Same issue as above
- Subsequently, the date slipped and the crew "Subsequently" has many of the same issues as "however" in implying connections that may not exist. In this case, you lose nothing by culling it.
- she advised an aspiring astronaut to "study Russian" I don't think the quote marks are really necessary
- she was involved in the development of the Flight instruments display I doubt flight is a proper noun
- Can we think of a better title for the last prose section than "in popular culture"? These sections tend to become laundry lists of every mention of the subject. And on that note, I'm not sure all those appearances are notable enough to mention, but are there sources to support an overarching sentence about her public profile or appearances, so at least the list has context?
- What was it about the "iconic photo" that was so attractive? And how was it used to promote the bands?
- Note 4 contains an inline external link, which is almost always a no-no.
—There are other places the prose could be tightened but the FA criteria don't demand perfection. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:50, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- Hi Harry, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:31, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild: I was holding out for some more on the photo but I guess Hawkeye hasn't been able to find anything material to add. Support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:17, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Comments I edit
Thank you for your invitation to participate. Two things immediately come to my mind: (1) The sentence "Anna was interviewed by Connie Chung, and that night Bill took Anna and Resnik, who had also been selected, out to dinner to celebrate". Now "Connie Chung" links to a journalist, but that article doesn't mention any position ever held at NASA. Is this the same Connie Chung? If yes, NASA needs to be mentioned, if no, then a disambiguation link like Connie Chung (NASA) might be necessary. (2) Anna Lee Fisher's mother was born in Hof, Bavaria, Germany, and grew up in Munich; also Anna Lee Fisher is fluent in German. (My source is that I met a German autograph collector at a fair once who showed me a personalised autograph he had obtained from Dr Fisher as a child which was accompanied by a short letter from her in German). Might or might not be useful in the article.ViennaUK (talk) 13:25, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
- The Connie Chung link is fine - the journalist is the one who interviewed Fisher on TV. She never worked for NASA.
- Yes, Fisher speaks German fluently. Added this to the article. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:34, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
Comments II edit
Just a comment, not a full review, but I'm concerned that the 'iconic photo' section and its associated notes feels to me like OR. What secondary sources describe it as 'iconic'? FN 67 seems to only cite that the image was posted on ffffound, not any of the other preceding content. Why are these selected uses of the image encyclopedically relevant? Note three feels like speculation, particularly the sentence "It is possible Bryson photographed Fisher on multiple occasions, but that has yet to verified." How do we know that the blogspot post is accurate and was actually posted by Bryson's son? Why are Bryson's speculations posted on social media encyclopedically relevant in Note 4? What cites that " The only publicly available archive of Bryson's work is at The Briscoe Center for American History at The University of Texas."? What cites that " became massively popular on the internet"? Etc. Eddie891 Talk Work 15:02, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- A note that my concerns have been addressed through Mike Christie's source review below, thanks. Eddie891 Talk Work 14:11, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Comments by Wehwalt edit
- "metallocarboranes,[7]" (both lead and body) Can we have links?
- "published three articles in the Inorganic Chemistry." I'd get rid of the "the"
- "Sims was invited to come to the Johnson Space Center (JSC) in to Houston," probably the last "to" is not needed
- "On one weekend day each month, she worked in the emergency room at Houston Methodist Clear Lake Hospital or Tampa General Hospital in Florida or to keep her medical skills well-honed.[26] " Similarly the last "or".
- "Fisher was based at the White Sands Test Facility." It might be worth mentioning this was an alternate landing site.
- "It would open it like an umbrella, and take hold of the satellite." The second "it" seems surplus.
- "Fisher would also assist the Hauck and Walker as the mission's flight engineer (MS2)." Similarly the first "the"
- There's probably not much you can do about this, but our article says shear wind is a phenomenon of the lower atmosphere and you're talking about the upper atmosphere.
- Changed to "high winds".
- "This was the first time that a Space Shuttle had deployed a satellite a night." some error near the end
- "Post-Challenger" can we italicize Challenger?
- Doesn't seem to be prohibited (MOS:HEADING) so italicised. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:12, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- "Red Book magazine" Redbook, surely. And the magazine and TV program titles in this paragraph take italics.
- That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:19, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Support from SusunW edit
I had intended to review another woman before the end of the year, but real life issues got in the way. I don't usually work on living people, but found the article fascinating.
- Thank you. There is still one more to come in the this series on the original six women astronauts: Shannon Lucid. I have already completed work on Sally Ride, Judith Resnik, Kathryn Sullivan and Rhea Seddon. I also have one ready on Eileen Collins. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:15, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Referring to the subject by her given name seems informal for an encyclopedic entry. WP:Surname indicates that the surname is preferred and distinction between which Fisher can easily be made by calling her spouse Bill. Suggest you use Sims/Fisher throughout.
- 3rd sentence seems really long. Possibly better to divide it?: She went back to Germany shortly before the outbreak of World War II to care for her grandmother. Unable to return to the United States due to the war, she served in the German military as a Morse code operator.
- "After the war she had worked" and also "The two had returned", in both instances lose the "had".
- "Moved about frequently" appears twice, delete one of them.
- 1st sentence in 2nd paragraph seems really long. Perhaps: On May 5, 1961, when Sims was in the seventh grade at Fort Campbell Kentucky, her teacher brought in a transistor radio. The class listened to the radio broadcast of Alan Shepard becoming the first American in space, causing Sims to contemplate the idea of becoming an astronaut.
- Lose the "the" before Inorganic Chemistry
- "But she saw others who had earned PhDs after six years of work yet still could not find jobs, and decided to pursue medicine instead" seems rather informal for an encyclopedia entry. Perhaps: Noting a lack of employment opportunity for chemists who had earned PhDs, she decided to pursue medicine.
- "who was now her fiancé" … No woman has been introduced in this paragraph. Perhaps: who was now Sims's fiancé
- Perhaps it would be clearer to say "She was part of the third group, the first to include women, which had twenty applicants to be interviewed".
- Lots of "she" in this "she was asked if she wanted to have children, and she told them that she…" Perhaps: Fisher was asked if she wanted to have children and responded not within the next five years.
- It is supposed to be illegal now in the US, but employers still find ways to ask those kinds of questions. I once had an employer ask to meet my husband on a 2nd interview, claiming that as it was a "family business" they liked their team to know the families of who they were hiring. I thought it weird, but brought him. They didn't ask me, they asked him. o.0 SusunW (talk) 19:16, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- "the existing classrooms, so during classroom instruction" …perhaps lose the 2nd classroom.
- "He had taken earned a Master of Science" … Either he took or he earned not both.
- Would it not be astronaut spouses' club rather than astronauts' spouses club?
- "…also included David M. Walker as the pilot, Fisher as the flight engineer, and mission specialists Fisher, Gardner and Joseph P. Allen." Is she both the flight engineer and a mission specialist? (The reference p 134 of the pdf numbering doesn't indicate she was the flight engineer.)
- Well yes, but no need to mention her twice. (The flight engineer is the mission specialist who sits behind the commander and pilot and assists them. The three form the flight deck crew. The other mission specialists conduct scientific experiments and EVAs. That a medical doctor is being used as flight engineer may indicate something about the roles of mission specialists.) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:15, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- "In February she", first use in the paragraph should not be a pronoun, rather "In February Fisher"
- "It would open it"? Perhaps: It would open the nozzle
- "One the other end" … Should this be on? and is this a grapple fixture?
- "Fisher would use the RMS to grab hold of it" Grab hold of what? The grapple? or the satellite? If it is the satellite, then "maneuver it into the cargo bay".
- "The mission insignia Fisher designed" seems a pretty abrupt transition from the previous section. Why was she designing an insignia? For herself or officially? I tried to access the link to the citation but it doesn't work. Correct link clarifies she was asked to design it. Probably needs clarification and definitely needs the link fixed.
- "She was chief (1997-1998) and deputy chief (1998-1999) …in that role" These are 2 different jobs. Do you mean in both roles?
- My concerns about the iconic photo section are similar to Eddie891's. Do we have any high quality sources that discuss the controversy about its origins? I see a lot of speculation in sources that aren't particularly reliable, that it appeared on the cover of Life, which would not likely have published without a photo credit. A search of its magazine covers for that year shows it did not.
- As the article notes, Life never ran it on the cover. The image is part of a whole roll of shots. Although Commons accepts it as a NASA image, I preferred to run it as a WP:NONFREE image, given the uncertainty. I cut the whole section right back, as I felt it included material that properly belonged on the talk page. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:15, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Enjoyed reading the article. Please ping me when you have answered to ensure that I respond timely. SusunW (talk) 21:19, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Support Comments from JennyOz
edit
Hello Hawkeye, another fine bio. I have only a few suggestions and questions...
lede
- became the first mother to fly in space in 1984 - is ambiguous (unless of course there was another mother later in 1984). Either add comma after "space" (same style as "astronauts to include women, in January 1978." just below) or reword to 'in 1984 she became...'
early life
- Riley F. Tingle - so how did she get name Sims?
- Good question. Short answer is that we don't know. You're only the second person to notice after myself. I thought is was real red flag. It could have been her mother's maiden name, or it could have been someone else. Note that her mother married Tingle in April 1949 and Sims was born in August. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:55, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- On May 5, 1961, when Sims was in the seventh grade at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. Her teacher - should not be new sentence?
- studies of metallocarboranes,[7] and published - wlink metallocarboranes again (ie beyond lede)
nasa astronaut
- Mark Mecikalski, .... At lunch one day - add year here? (1976? 1977?)
- Both of them applied. - 'They both applied' sounds better?
- NASA received 8,079 applications, and chose 208 of them for further screening - "of them" not needed?
- and the two became friends. - Bill and Resnik or Sims and Resnik?
- While both Sims and Bill hoped to be selected, - Anna (or Fisher) (because she has changed last name by now?)
- due to her background in chemistry as well as medicine - chemistry and medicine?
- note 1 - Valentina Tereshkova and Andriyan Nikolayev had married - start with 'Soviets'?
- fit women (called the extra-small Extravehicular Mobility Unit or EMU) - wlink Extravehicular Mobility Unit
- of an extra-small hard upper torso (HUT) - wlink Hard Upper Torso
- fit medium and large sized suits, ... suits to fit small-sized astronauts - standardise hyphens? ie medium- and large-sized
- 1980 astronaut selections—Fisher, Rhea Seddon and - mentioned already so just Seddon
- procedures for ascent, on-orbit, and RMS software - typo in-orbit
STS-51-A
- Fisher became pregnant at this time. - clarify what time?
- when she was four and a half months pregnant - hyphenate
- members of the crew of the STS-41-G mission - wlink
- the crew was assigned to the STS-41-H - no wlink ?
- In February she went to New York City - new year add 1984?
- the fourteenth space Shuttle flight - cap S on space
- came up with to capture the satellites with was to use a device - second "with" can go?
- to fly over to the satellite and place the stinger inside its rocket nozzle of the satellite - "of the satellite" can be removed?
- Fisher was asked to design the insignia for this mission. Her design had - that patch in ibox is so tiny (and I expect readers may not make connection to it from this prose) - any ideas?
- In the weeks and months leading up to the flight - months and weeks
- Discovery lifted off from Launch Pad 39A at KSC on November 8, 1984, on Discovery's second mission.[48] Once Discovery was - too many Discoverys? make second its
- using a spring ejection mechanism - hyphen spring-ejection?
- using the Frisbee style mechanism that had - hyphen? Frisbee-style
- rendezvoused with Palapa B2 - wlink Palapa B2
- Out of communication with mission control - wlink Mission control
- Fisher maneuvered it so Allan could - typo Allen
- also operated a Radiation Monitoring Equipment (RME) device - wlink Radiation Monitoring Equipment?
- medals were presented by President Ronald Reagan[52] Fisher was - insert full stop
Post-Challenger
- In December, Fisher was assigned - add year
- Fisher was assigned to mission STS-61-C - wlink STS-61-C
- and Norman E. Thagard and - already linked above (as Norman Thagard)
- That mission was cancelled in the - one L for US spelling?
- Fisher worked as the Deputy of the Mission Development Branch of the Astronaut Office, and as the astronaut office representative for Flight Data File issues. In that capacity, she served as the crew representative on the Crew Procedures Change Board. Fisher served on the Astronaut Selection Board for NASA Astronaut Group 12 in 1987. Fisher also served - too many Fishers? second can be she?
- checked their records, and the Fisher was awarded her Master of Science degree - and then Fisher? (or remove "the")
Iconic photograph
- Incubus,[72] The Arctic Monkeys - remove The
- note 2 but that has yet to verified - yet to be
- note 3 issue of Life Magazine - m
- note 3 Sygma - wlink Sygma (agency)
References books
- Mullane and Seddon are both out of alpha order
- Internet v internet
Thanks and looking forward to the next. JennyOz (talk) 12:32, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for reviewing. Shanon Lucid will complete the set of the six original women astronauts. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:55, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Hi JennyOz, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:44, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for ping Gog, somehow this review page had disappeared from my watchlist. Haven't had that happen before, well, at least not that I've noticed! Thanks for tweaks and replies Hawkeye. I just made 2 small edits for you to check. I am pleased to s'port - and do let me know when Lucid ready if I don't notice its nom. JennyOz (talk) 04:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
Source review edit
Footnote numbers refer to this version.
Shayler & Burgess (2020) is not in alphabetical position in the references.Mullane is missing the publisher location.FN 62 should be marked as a dead link.For FN 67 I can't see the relevant source as it's paywalled but I suspect the title does not really include the YYYY-MM-DD date.Any reason why you give the location for just three of the web cites -- FNs 77, 78, and 83 (the last of which is slightly different from the first two)?- You have domain name instead of website in some cases -- in FN 81 for example you have "mydelineatedlife.blogspot.com", but the website title is actually "The Pictorial Arts".
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Still a couple to fix: search for momanddadday.com, gettyimages.com, wtnh.com, reddit.com, legacy.com, ffffound.com, 411posters.com, arctic-monkeys-store.com, gigposters.com. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:22, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- I still see wtnh.com, which I think will be taken care of by the next point. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:26, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Still a couple to fix: search for momanddadday.com, gettyimages.com, wtnh.com, reddit.com, legacy.com, ffffound.com, 411posters.com, arctic-monkeys-store.com, gigposters.com. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:22, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- What's the logic for choosing publisher or website for the web citations? You have both publisher and website for FN 82, for example, but publisher only for FN 68 and website only for 88. In a couple of cases you have neither -- e.g. FN 71.
- I try to use publisher whenever I can.
- Consistency is all that's needed. The website italicizes and the publisher does not, so the formatting is inconsistent if the citations vary between the two; plus e.g. for 82 you have both. It doesn't matter which you pick (or both) so long as it's consistent. Looking at what you have it would probably be quickest to drop the "work=" parameter to make it consistent as you have that in only a few cites; and then make sure they all have publisher -- as far as I can see only Leary, Mckie, Mikati, and Gellman are missing the publisher parameter. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:28, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- I try to use publisher whenever I can.
I would suggest dropping FN 6, the LinkedIn source; the fact that she speaks German just about passes the "not unduly self-serving" requirement of WP:ABOUTSELF, but it's not an important fact for the article, and I would suggest only including this sort of source where it's needed to establish relevant information.Why do we think the "Mother of the Year Award" is worth noting? I think the source is reliable for establishing she won it, but does the award itself get coverage that implies it's worth mentioning?- What makes ffffound.com a reliable source? I think you're just using it to establish virality, but I don't think the page you link to does that -- as far as I can see it has 568 reposts, which is not really viral.
- Note 2 and note 3 rely on multiple citations to reddit and a blog. Why should we consider these a reliable way to establish the history of the image?
Will check links after these points are addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:21, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- I was going to post a reply regarding the last two points, but I went back and looked through this FAC to see if others had commented on the image discussion, and Eddie891's comments echo my thoughts. It feels like OR to me. I think it would be better to reduce this to something like "Other than the publicity she does herself, her likeness has been widely shared on the internet and it has been used in various promotions and tribute art. A photograph taken by John Bryson, almost in profile, has been frequently posted on social media sites." Then move all the notes to the talk page in case we can find secondary sources covering this later. The band promotion links are OK. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:38, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- With pleasure. Moved to the talk page. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:30, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- I would suggest removing the sentence that says it's an iconic photograph; the sources we have don't allow us to make that sort of broad cultural statement. We can still say it was frequently reposted and used to promote bands. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:26, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- With pleasure. Moved to the talk page. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:30, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Pass. All points addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:40, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Image review edit
All look good except:
- File:Anna Fisher suits up.jpg. One source link is dead and the other gives no information to confirm this as a NASA PD image.
- The image can be found at [4]. I have updated the link on Commons. In future this may not be possible; link rot is inevitable, but stuff on Commons is not routinely archived like stuff on Wikipedia. We may not be able to find a link even when one still exists. And we need to keep pushing WMF to acquire archive.org. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:31, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- File:Sts-51-a-patch.png One dead link (mix.msfc seems to be an issue) and the other won't load for me. How do we know the mission patch was designed by NASA and was not produced outside of the agency and the copyright acquired? Even if it was designed by Fisher, a federal employee, how would it be within the scope of her duties (the requirement for PD works of the federal government) to design insignia?
- The image is at [5] You can find all the patches via [6]. A major part of an astronaut's duties are publicity related, with publicity tours after every mission, and rostered public relations assignment duty (which most of them dislike to varying degrees). Astronauts have been creating designs for mission patches as part of their duties since the 1960s. In the Shuttle era the logos were used on merchandise, posters etc used at NASA and contractor sites. I hadn't thought of this before, but one of the reasons for having it done by astronauts is as you describe. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:31, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- Despite the above discussion with Mike Christie, the image page still describes the fair use image as "iconic", you may want to tone that down.
- That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:18, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- File:Anna Fisher suits up.jpg. One source link is dead and the other gives no information to confirm this as a NASA PD image.
![[5]](https://history.nasa.gov/patches/shuttle/STS-51-a.jpg){kind=link}
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:09, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.