User talk:Renamed user df576567etesddf/Archive 6

Falsification of sources

He's banned now, but I wonder if he's done this on other articles. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:50, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll have a look through some of his contributions and see if anything sticks out. I'll keep you updated. —Cliftonian (talk) 22:30, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

List of Malmö FF seasons

Hi! So I've requested a peer review for my upcoming FLC but unfortunately without replies for five days. I've done some work since nominating it for peer review and I must say that I'm quite happy with it's current form. I suspect that I would receive substantially more feedback at FLC so I'm tempted at withdrawing the peer review and nominating it for FLC but I thought that I'd drop you a line before doing so to see if you have any comments. Thanks! --Reckless182 (talk) 23:01, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

See the peer review. A tip: if you want peer reviews to work, you have to give people a bit of a nudge, because many people don't really check the peer review lists very much (I don't, for example). So, you did the right thing by poking me here, and it's a good thing you did because this isn't quite ready for FLC just yet. See my comments for a more specific explanation. I'm sure there will be no problems in the long run. —Cliftonian (talk) 23:56, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Coey

Thanks for addressing the issue so adeptly. IMO he has a better wikipedia article than he deserves, and that does you credit. I agree with your stance on mercenary ... our article does make it clear it is personal gain, where as he was all ideology. Indeed, my edits to that article have not been amongst my most successful; so, sorry for that ;).

I still have a problem with one sentence: "His attention was caught by the situation in Rhodesia (modern-day Zimbabwe), where the unrecognised government, made up predominantly of the country's minority whites, was fighting a war against black communist guerrillas who were attempting to topple it and forcibly introduce majority rule." That's one way of describing it. The Bush War article calls it a civil war leading to universal suffrage. In short, I think the article could do with setting up some context for the war Coey involved himself in. None of the articles on Zimbabwe African National Liberation Army, Zimbabwe African National Union, Zimbabwe People's Revolutionary Army, Zimbabwe African People's Union mention communism, and whilst I'd be surprised if it was entirely absent, it was as I recall much more a fairly straightforward war of independence against a fairly illicit government which opposed No independence before majority rule. We should not see the conflict through Coey's eyes (which I think we are doing in that sentence) but rather through a more objective and more dispassionate description of the conflict. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:08, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay, that's a fairly persuasive take. I am, for the moment, persuaded. I, too, was a little surprised at the various Z articles failure to identify the ideological borrowings of the various parties. This clearly being your territory, I hope you'll find time to address that. FWIW, I once took a photo of a freight train crossing the rail bridge at Victoria Falls, on the same day as reading in The Times of Zambia's complete trade sanctions with Rhodesia. But that would be OR, and this is not my area ;) --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:50, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

^ Indeed, there are strong grounds for arguing that - without the Russian and Chinese [etc.] support which they received (in the form of arms, training and finance) - the Zimbabwe guerrillas would have been very much less effective ... i.e., the Rhodesian government would have lasted a lot longer. [Admittedly, the Rhodesians were heavily dependent on South African sympathy and support]. But the Communist backing for their cause, makes it easy to understand why the Zim. guerrillas wanted to make it appear that they were receptive to Communist ideology. --DLMcN (talk) 07:26, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The guerrillas often used the designation "commissar" for their senior officials. --DLMcN (talk) 08:45, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

ZANU–PF still does. Nice to hear from you again Dave, do you think you'd be able to help with the editing of the ZANU, ZAPU, ZANLA and ZIPRA articles along the lines described in this conversation (see Tagishsimon's talk page as well, if you haven't already)? —Cliftonian (talk) 12:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

OK then - maybe I could contribute something useful and relevant ... > mentioning what I wrote above, perhaps? Is that what you had in mind? At this early stage, however, my inclination is to "tread carefully", rather than rush into it. The ZANU-PF page does indeed admit that there are Communist/Socialist features in its party setup. Thus, perhaps we should first discuss here, what items need to be emphasized or changed.--DLMcN (talk) 05:36, 16 February 2012 (UTC) ... For example, on the ZANU page under "Relationship with armed wing" it actually asks for comments or information - so maybe we could mention their very heavy dependence on Russian and Chinese support? --DLMcN (talk) 07:20, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

ZANU–ZANLA were dependent on the Chinese and North Koreans, whereas ZAPU–ZIPRA were backed by the East Germans, Cubans, Russians and so forth. It's important to make that distinction clear, even down to the symbolism used (red star for ZANLA, hammer and sickle for ZIPRA). Would also be good to mention use of very extensive "comrade" and "commissar" titles, as well as ZANLA's extensive (and successful) use of Maoist populist tactics (based on those used to win the Chinese Civil War for the Reds) to win over rural tribesmen, starting around 1972 in eastern Mashonaland. It should also be mentioned, for what it's worth, that both ZANLA and ZIPRA were receiving external support from the aforementioned powers before UDI. I'll think of more later, but I have to get going now. —Cliftonian (talk) 12:31, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey mate can you have a look

Hey mate, Iv'e created a list Manchester United F.C. league record by opponent based on futured list article Luton Town F.C. league record by opponent and the FLC Liverpool article. Any chance you could read the lead and see if I wrote it in proper English before applying in the FLC process. Thanks in advance.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 01:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Almost 100% correct. מצוין! Your English is improving swiftly. My Hebrew, on the other hand, still leaves a lot to be desired. Still, I am going in צה"ל soon, which should help me get better. A pointer: you missed out some of the former club names. I spotted Millwall, but there may be more. If I were you I'd have a look before nominating at FLC. When you nominate at FLC, let me know and I will help in any way I can. Great work on this list so far! Keep it up. —Cliftonian (talk) 01:18, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you!, yep will have a look on the teams names I've missed. I am sure over time your hebrew will be great, but due to half of the words in Hebrew are also in English you will be fine. lol. Once you join the IDF you will have an amazing time, It is something to remember all your life, and many great friends to life. I finished my duty many years ago but still continue with the reserve force, nothing beat those times!. about the FLC thing, I will notify you, and hopfully it will get promoted anytimes this year. lol.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 01:27, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Lekker stuff. Talk soon hey. —Cliftonian (talk) 01:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

FLC process
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 01:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Great, I'll swing through at some point. —Cliftonian (talk) 01:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Bobby Chalmers

Hi. I've reviewed Template:Did you know nominations/Bobby Chalmers. --LauraHale (talk) 06:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXI, February 2012

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DYK for Bobby Chalmers

The DYK project (nominate) 07:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Hooray! —Cliftonian (talk) 10:27, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Main page for List of Israel State Cup winners

What do you think about nominating the List of Israel State Cup winners on main page slot?
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 19:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good. Go for it. —Cliftonian (talk) 19:13, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Got any advice on what to write on the nomination preview? Similar to Israeli champions or maybe something a bit diffrent?
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 12:30, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Probably stick relatively close to the champions one, and follow the extant lead we've already got in the article. Throw something together and I'll have a look at it, then we'll see where to go with it. —Cliftonian (talk) 12:36, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

The Maccabi Tel Aviv team lines up at Bloomfield Stadium during a UEFA Europa League match in 2011.

The association football State Cup winners of Israel are the winners of the highest domestic cup in Israeli football, the Israel State Cup. The cup is contested on a knockout basis, with its trophy awarded to the team that wins the final. The competition, which has been organised since the foundation of the Israel Football Association in August 1928, was the first nationwide football tournament to be held in the British Mandate for Palestine. It was named the People's Cup until the foundation of the State of Israel in 1948. In all, Maccabi Tel Aviv (2011 team pictured) hold the record for most cups, with 22 wins. The longest run of successive wins is three, won by Hapoel Tel Aviv between the 1937 and 1939 seasons. The most decisive cup final victory was in 1942, when Beitar Tel Aviv beat Maccabi Haifa 12–1. (Full list...)

What do you think?, Just a note, if Hapoel Tel Aviv wins this year cup it will be thier second time they win three in a row. and ALT is needed if you can rewrite something there would be thankful.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 14:27, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I've had a run through it and it looks good for nomination now. Re: Hapoel T-A, we'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it. Have a great Shabbat! —Cliftonian (talk) 14:44, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, have a great Shabbat aswell!
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 14:45, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

What do you think about replacing the MTA team picture with this (two pictured presented), it have the cup pictured from the 1961 final which Hapoel Tel Aviv won. If not its realy nice to be on the article.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 17:41, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

The only thing is that that isn't the trophy they presently use. I think putting that as the main picture would be a tad confusing. I think it's good for the article though; I'll put one of them in now. Well done Honor. —Cliftonian (talk) 18:28, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Yep your right, and thank you.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 20:29, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Bobby Chalmers season-by-season

Unfortunately I cannot provide you with complete statistics for Bobby Chalmers' NFL career. However, I have dug up some information from various sources. Most notably extensive notetaking from old issues of South African Soccer Monthly, which published team line-ups for a few seasons. From these notes I have compiled nearly complete player statistics for all NFL clubs from seasons 1965-68.

On Chalmers, I have the following stats (league only):

1962 Durban City (15 goals) 1963 Durban City (26 goals) 1964 Durban City (39 goals) 1965 Durban City (28 apps, 22 goals) 1966 Durban City (3 apps, 4 goals)

        Durban United (27 apps, 25 goals)

1967 Durban United (27 apps, 24 goals) 1968 Durban United (6 apps, 1 goal)

        Maritzburg (3 apps)

1969 Maritzburg (12 goals) 1970 Maritzburg (28 apps, 12 goals) 1971 Maritzburg (1 goal) 1972 Maritzburg (7 goals) 1973 Maritzburg (23 apps, 11 goals) 1974 Maritzburg (6 goals?)

Hope this was helpful.

O.E. Jenssen, Oslo, Norway — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.213.84.145 (talk) 00:59, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

List of Malmö FF seasons FLC

Hi man! I'm discussing with Struway2 regarding the inclusion of certain European cups in the list. We've come to a point where a third opinion is needed. Would you care to offer your knowledge and experience? Thanks! --Reckless182 (talk) 13:53, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

"Knowledge and experience" (blushes) Hehe... —Cliftonian (talk) 13:55, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

List of Malmö FF managers

Hey. I'm still waiting for the season list to pass FLC but I've started work on the next one until then. Do you think the list needs peer review or is it fairly ready for FLC? I've tried to learn as much as possible from the two FLCs. The table should be fine with enough refs and I've made sure the sorting works as it should. I might add a footnote to specify the different from and to dates concerning some managers since I've used exact arrival and departure dates for some managers and when unknown I've used first and last match managed as the dates. Other than that the lead and managerial history could benefit from some copyediting. I've added as many relevant refs as I can to the managerial history section but I don't think it's necessary to add more refs since most of the facts are referenced later in the table. What do you think? --Reckless182 (talk) 18:31, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll look at this today (7 March). —Cliftonian (talk) 07:28, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Cheers man! --Reckless182 (talk) 07:41, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I've done a bit of work on this, but I think there is still a little bit of work to do here. First things first, look at your entry for Ernst Hjertberg, where I think there is a mistake (unless he really did manage the club for less than one day on 2 August 1917, but I think you would have said so in the prose if this were the case). I would turn the "Svenska Cupen titles" column into "other honours", if I were you, so you could put in the European honours and runners-up spots Malmo FF have won, Superettan, etc. I would definitely put in the footnotes for the arrival and departure dates if you don't know. I would only put one decimal place on the winning percentage: two seems rather superfluous for me. The page says at the bottom (in the list of categories) that you have a "WDL error" – I don't know exactly what this is germane to, but I presume it has to do with a template you may have used in the table for the wins, draws and losses. You should probably have a look at it when you get the chance. I have done a copy-edit now, but I think I might run through it again in a few days as I don't think I am on very good form today. Long story short, this is certainly on the way, but not quite ready for an FLC yet. I am of course happy to help you get it ready for this, as always. It is good work so far, and I have no doubt it will progress well! Keep it up. —Cliftonian (talk) 15:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! your copyedits are always appreciated. I'm not sure on how to handle the dates for Hjertberg as I don't know the exact dates and the fact that Malmö FF only played one competetive match in 1917, ( one match in Svenska Mästerskapet). Perhaps it would be better to just put 1917? The column idea is a good one, I'll change that later. I'll look into the WDL issues, not sure I can change the decimals in the template but I agree. I've seen the WDL error before, maybe it's better to use a manual wikitable instead to avoid the issue. I'll update you with my progress! Thanks a lot! --Reckless182 (talk) 21:04, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

If you don't know, just put "1917", and put a footnote explaining. Have a bit more fun with this and I'll check back when you're ready. —Cliftonian (talk) 22:34, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Will do! Did you catch the Champions League game tonight? Even though I don't follow Cypriot football my heart was racing for the penalty shoot-out, crazy stuff when a team that entered the competition in the same round as Malmö FF qualifies for the quarter-finals. I remember some supporters in Malmö wanted APOEL in the qualification play-offs since they considered them the best draw, I guess they proved everyone wrong. --Reckless182 (talk) 22:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid not, it is the first night of Purim here in Israel, so everybody was wandering around town dressed up as the usual assortment of Elvises, Luke Skywalkers and John McEnroes. I was personally down at the movie house watching a rather boring old flick about bullfighters with a girl who only speaks to me in French and can't say my name properly. A brilliant night for APOEL though! You would have thought the world would know by now not to underestimate Greeks, even Cypriot Greeks, following Euro 2004 (though, somewhat ironically, over half of the APOEL team is Portuguese and Brazilian; but I digress). The last eight is a real achievement for them and I am sure they are very proud of themselves. To paraphrase my favourite television commercial, I am sure each and every one of them is enjoying a real hero's welcome tonight! —Cliftonian (talk) 22:52, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

made me smile Babakathy (talk) 05:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, thank you very much! :) —Cliftonian (talk) 07:28, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Copyeditor's Barnstar
	For helping me with copyediting for the Malmö FF related lists. I noticed you didn't have one like this! Reckless182 (talk) 22:15, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, thank you very much my friend! :) —Cliftonian (talk) 22:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Please see my last comment in FLC record by opponent

Please see my last comment in FLC record by opponent. PS: Happy Purim to you and your family!.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 00:22, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I already saw it, and I am in the process of replying. Happy Purim to you and your family too! :) —Cliftonian (talk) 00:25, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I have added the Football Alliance to the league statistics page, so will be greatful if you would now support or if you wish to oppose it.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 07:23, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm supporting it now. Well done Honor, great work. —Cliftonian (talk) 10:23, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Swedbank Stadion

Hey. Since I feel really motivated at the moment I've worked quite hard on improving the article for the stadium and I believe it's now ready for GAC and I've therefore nominated it. I don't expect you to review it yourself since you've already helped me a great deal with the lists, I feel like I've been throwing an awful lot of work your way the last couple of weeks without doing much in return. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction as for another editor that might be suitable if you're not up for the job. Sincerely --Reckless182 (talk) 23:53, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Hey man, don't worry about "throwing" stuff my way, I really don't mind. It's always a pleasure working with you. I'll happily review this for you sometime tomorrow (11 March). —Cliftonian (talk) 23:57, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks man! I really appreciate it. Just wanted to make sure I don't overdo it. It's been pretty intense lately with all the FLC's. I'll nominate Malmö FF league record by opponent for FLC as well when the list of managers has been promoted as I'm fairly certain that the list will only need minor improvements. However, after that list I think I need to spend some time improving the other lists, List of Malmö FF records and statistics, List of Malmö FF players and List of Malmö FF chairmen need a lot of work before being anywhere close to FLC, I also need to decide a few issues. For the players list I have very limited sources and I might need to buy some more reference books before I can proceed there. I'm also unsure about the list of chairmen, I've noticed that these kinds of lists are uncommon and I'm starting to wonder if the list is actually notable on its own or if it should be incorporated into another article or list. The ultimate goal is to get Malmö FF to a feature topic, to do this I need get all of the mentioned lists to FL's and at least Swedbank Stadion to GA or FA, I'm not sure if the club's previous stadiums needs to become GA's or FA's as well. To top it off I also need to write one or two articles describing the history of the club in greater detail which will take a lot of time and effort. As I said, I appreciate your help and I look forward to working with you to achieve this goal of mine, just tell me if you have to much on your plate and I'll wait or find another editor to help me at that time, you must be fairly tired of Malmö FF at this time, I'm sure you've learned a lot about the club though! --Reckless182 (talk) 00:21, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Off-topic, It's a pleasure working with a fellow libertarian! Just noticed this on your user page. --Reckless182 (talk) 00:37, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Reviewed the Stadion article. It looks very good, but it just needs a quick copy-edit to bring it over the line. If you like, I can help with this when I have more time. I see no other problems. Good work! I understand about the players list, as you maybe saw, I never actually took the Luton one to FLC for more or less this reason... I never created a list of chairmen for Luton, but I see no reason why it would not be notable if you do it properly (which I'm sure you would). I understand your goal for an FT, and if that is your aim, you probably would do well to get the old stadiums up to GA/FA too. The history of Malmö FF article will indeed take a bit more time, but I think that it is ultimately a goal that is achievable. Perhaps try writing a little bit of it at a time, and going over what you have periodically. If you try to write the whole thing right away, you may well go insane (this coming from a man who inflicts work like this on himself).

I have just one warning for you regarding my availability, and that is the fact that I am going into the army just over a month from now. I will still be available from time to time after that, but obviously my presence will be severely reduced ... just a warning. I will still help as much as I can. Don't worry, I'm not tired of Malmö FF (yet!); in fact, I'm enjoying learning about a team I always heard of since I was a kid, but never really knew anything about. I was surprised to find that professionalism was banned in Sweden until 1967, for example, but it does help explain why so many Swedish players played abroad before then!

Off-topic, glad to hear you are a libertarian too. You always seemed to make sense in our interactions thus far, so I suppose it is not really surprising. —Cliftonian (talk) 00:44, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Great! I'll look it over in the morning and see if can fix any minor errors such as the en dashes. Feel free to do the copy editing at any time. Perhaps it's good timing that you are going into the army in a month (good luck by the way!) as you see that I have a lot of work to do with the articles and lists in the mean time. I've learned a fair bit about Luton as well by looking at your articles and lists for guidance, I read earlier today that artificial grass is banned in England, I wish this was the case for Sweden as well, as many as eight teams will play play on an artificial pitch in Allsvenskan this season, but perhaps the colder climate justifies this, I still don't like it. I'll get back to you tomorrow! --Reckless182 (talk) 01:07, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay, talk soon. —Cliftonian (talk) 01:17, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Ian Smith / UDI

Well handled, John ... Well done ! --DLMcN (talk) 20:39, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Baie dankie Dave. —Cliftonian (talk) 20:40, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Something you might be interested in

Hi Cliftonian, I know you're the main guy around here for anything relating to Rhodesia, so I figured you'd be the person to go to for this. I started a draft many moons ago (and, save the occasional edit, more or less forgot about it until today when an IP made an unexplained edit on it) for an article on the Rhodesian camouflage pattern. I have been reluctant to put it online because I really don't have a lot of content for it yet. However, I figured that it might be of interest to you, and I was wondering if you might have any information or sources to contribute to make the draft worth putting online. Thanks, and happy editing --L1A1 FAL (talk) 15:14, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

"Main guy around here for anything relating to Rhodesia"... wow, that's a compliment and a half, thanks! I'm flattered by your invitation to contribute. I'll put some work into this draft when I have some time, and we'll see where it goes. Look forward to working with you and making a strong article. —Cliftonian (talk) 16:56, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I figured I could put it on as-is if I really wanted to, but there's enough stubs around already. I would have liked to make it stronger myself, but I just couldn't find good enough sources, and so just gradually lost interest in it. You have a blank check to do what you want on the draft. If I come across anything interesting, I might edit the draft some more too, but I've had other priorities recently. --L1A1 FAL (talk) 21:17, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, as I say, we'll just see where it goes. I was actually doing some work on it now, funnily enough. —Cliftonian (talk) 21:20, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Just looked over it, and you're doing a great job with it--L1A1 FAL (talk) 21:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! I try. :) —Cliftonian (talk) 00:59, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Parma F.C.

Hi there. I've put a good deal of work into improving this article and have put it up at WP:GAN around a month ago. I have noticed that you've authored and reviewed a number of GAs, so wondered whether you'd be able to have a look through it for me, either to review it or to give me a couple of pointers as to how I can get it to GA level. Even if you don't have the time or inclination, thanks for reading!  Omg †  osh  01:03, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Cheers, really appreciate it! And don't feel under pressure to get back to me today!  Omg †  osh  08:32, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Fantastic. That's such a great help. I've replied in more detail on my page, so that you don't injure yourself tab-switching.  Omg †  osh  16:08, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXII, March 2012

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DYK nomination of Rhodesiana

Hello! Your submission of Rhodesiana at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 18:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

DYK for History and evolution of the Rhodesian premiership

Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle} 07:49, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Shangani Patrol

Nice job with the Shangani Patrol article. You've made some great contributions and it looks so much better. It should definitely make DYK and Good, if not Featured Article. Are you planning to self-nom? Ctatkinson (talk) 15:45, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliments! I'm not bothering with DYK, but I have self-nominated it for GAN already (see here, it hasn't yet been reviewed). I intend to take it to FAC as soon as it passes GAN (presuming it does). —Cliftonian (talk) 21:22, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Rhodesiana

Casliber (talk · contribs) 16:34, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Malmö FF league record by opponent

Alright, I will nominate this for FLC and then I will take a longer research break for the other list and articles, I find that I have a hard time staying away from it. Do you see any major issues that needs to be fixed before FLC? The list does not separate the statistics into home and away matches since the sources I have used does not display them, counting them manually would be a kerfuffle and also OR, do you see a problem with not separating the data? Also, some of the refs I have used are accessed through java on a website and can't be linked directly, I have linked as far as I've been able to. Cheers man! --Reckless182 (talk) 16:47, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm off out in a few minutes, so I only have time to give you a few quick pointers now. But I'll have a proper look at this tomorrow.

Initial thoughts

1. You don't need to bold the team names. Make this a plainrowheaders table (see any of your FLs if you've forgotten how this works).
2. Per wp:overlink, you don't want to be linking the season in the "last" column where it's the same as the "first" one (for example see FC Väsby United, there are a few others I saw).
3. Yes, counting them all would be a kerfuffle, but I should probably mention that I did all the counting for Luton Town F.C. league record by opponent with a pencil and paper, based on a raw set of results given in a book... So far as I can see this is not OR as it is simply reproduction of statistical information published in a reliable source, not synthesis of sources into original thought... just saying. Assuming you don't fuck up, there's no reason to dispute this kind of thing. Anybody with the time could hypothetically double-check the tallies against the sources, which is surely the only real qualification. Convenience and ease are practical limitations, yes, but this in itself does not constitute original research in my view. Feel free to call me sad, but back in 2009 my 18-year-old self spent two consecutive weekends and countless hours counting the home and away results of Luton Town against countless teams I had never heard of in my life (Royal Ordnance Factories and Treharris Athletic Western are two which come to mind), noting first and last games, calculating statistics... it was mind-destroying and soul-destroying, but the result seems to be a format which is now catching on!
4. If you can't go directly to the info, and Java is required, you should really give instructions on how to retrieve the data. See the explanation right at the bottom of the Robin Friday page for a similar case.
5. I'll have another look tomorrow. Have to rush out now —Cliftonian (talk) 17:00, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks! I'll wait and see what I'll do about the home and away stats, I've just ordered a new book with over 700 pages of Swedish football statistics so If I am lucky these sorts of statistics might be included. Talk to you later. --Reckless182 (talk) 18:10, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

7 Indep Coy RR

Hi Clift. Just back from the Anzac Day march and I buttonholed a few who were in the RR to ask for anything about 7 Indep Coy. They had no knowledge but a former SAS friend said when they first came to Rhod they put them with SAS and lasted only a day or so before they kicked them out; let's just say they weren't impressed with them. Have you seen the film Rebellion (L'Ordre et la Morale) about the GIGN in NewCal yet? Better that I thought and well acted.Foofbun (talk) 06:51, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for the info re: 7 Indep Coy. I hadn't seen anything about them going with the SAS, though I can believe that to be true. The impression I have is that the French guys were generally not very good (and that's putting it politely), and spent most of their time moping around, expecting special treatment. Which, of course, in the Rhodesian Army—come to that, in almost any army—is not the thing to do. I'm not really surprised that the RR guys didn't know much about 7 Indep Coy, as it appears to me that they were assigned to that regiment simply out of bureaucratic convenience more than anything else. Rather than having anything to do with the rest of the RR, they based up at Cranborne with the RLI (I say "with", but I don't imagine the RLI would have taken much to them either) and generally seem to have done things separately to everybody else. It's certainly an interesting tale from Rhodesia's history, perhaps because it is so contradictory and strange.

• I've never seen Rebellion, no, but I'll certainly look into it now. —Cliftonian (talk) 10:23, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

• "contradictory and strange"; that's what life's all about! I could give you an odd story or two about the French, or as someone said "making the French proved God has a sense of humour"Foofbun (talk) 07:26, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

• I don't know what you mean. —Cliftonian (talk) 08:57, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Altenmann not falsifying sources

[1]. Altenmann didn't make this up. See my comments at [2].

• See [3] That should show part of the bibliography of the Routledge History of the Holocaust By Jonathan C. Friedman, which lists Proester as a source. Unfortunately, I can't see the page it sources (p379) but it is possible that someone outside the UK may be able to. It looks like Altenmann is not your hoaxer.... Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:09, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
• This is p42 in another book edited by Ian Hancock -the author of the piece in the History of the Holacaust. This book's called "we are the Romani people", and cites Proester to support the assertion that Cliftonian removed from the articles about the murder of Gypsy children.
• This one is from Confronting the Holocaust by G. Jan Colijn, published by University Press of America, and it cites both Proester and Novitch as sources for the information.

Now just how sure are you about this "friend" who claims that the source does not exist, and Novitch never referred to it. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:57, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Elen, I acted in good faith based on what I was told by my friend (whom I don't think it's correct to name here unless it's absolutely necessary), but I cannot say for certain that she is correct. She sent me a long series of emails she had exchanged with some experts and professors in Germany and the Czech Republic while researching for her book, and the information seemed to check out to me at the time. It does appear, judging from the sources you give above, that Altenmann was not the hoaxer. I can't see p. 379 of Friedman's book either, but I trust it gives the correct information. I have no objection to the information being restored to the article, but at the same time I must insist that I was acting in good faith, and not meaning to act in a non-constructive manner. I admit I was at fault for not checking the information thoroughly myself. If there is some other way I can help, I hope you will let me know. —Cliftonian (talk) 21:24, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Fairy snuff. It is possible I suppose that this is an older hoax, which could point the finger at Novitch if that source really doesn't exist. ... Don't really want to go there though - that's for the academics to sort out. My main concern was that Altenmann had been accused of a deliberate hoax, which doesn't appear to be the case. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Okay, Elen, well if I can ever be of further assistance, as I say above, just let me know. —Cliftonian (talk) 21:33, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXIII, April 2012

Your Military History Newsletter Project news: From the editors; award recipients; contest results Articles: The month's Featured and A-class content Book reviews: Bomzibar on Subhas Chandra Bose; Hawkeye on corps commanders; Nick-D on American special forces Op-ed: The Land on commemorating World War I

The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here.
If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 23:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Home and Rhodesia

I'm glad we have an accommodation over the Rhodesia sections of the Alec Douglas-Home article. I have it up at FAC (Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Alec Douglas-Home/archive1 if you would like to look in and add any comments, critical or supportive. All contributions gratefully received. Tim riley (talk) 14:42, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll have a swing through at some point Tim, thanks for the note. If you are interested, I have an FAC going at the moment too on the Shangani Patrol. —Cliftonian (talk) 17:04, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your generous comment and for your two excellent suggestions. (As regards the ("Alec") suggestion, why on earth didn't I think of it! But I'm very pleased that you did. Tim riley (talk) 14:34, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you too. I hope that we cross paths again soon, as it is always a pleasure. —Cliftonian (talk) 14:35, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

You must never hesitate to ask me to rummage in the archives of UK newspapers if you want anything for future articles. I have access to all sorts of online archives, and I love researching in them. Tim riley (talk) 15:21, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Will do Tim. Thanks. —Cliftonian (talk) 15:22, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Imperial Napoleonic triple crown

Dear Cliftonian, well done on receiving this Imperial Napoleonic triple crown for work on Lutonian and Rhodesian articles. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 16:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

For your editing of Relocation of Wimbledon F.C. to Milton Keynes,

	The Civility Barnstar
	For maintaining an NPOV in a contentious subject, with neutral citations. This despite (very occasionally) letting it slip that you didn't approve. John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:06, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much JMF! —Cliftonian (talk) 19:01, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not much of expert in the wikipedia conventions and technicalities, so don't know about things like Barnstars, but I had also noticed your excellent NPOV work on Wimbledon-related issues. I'm sure you have made a major contribution to ensuring that the topic is covered professionally within wikipedia. Thanks and well done! Daveofthenewcity (talk) 12:10, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you too Dave! —Cliftonian (talk) 12:15, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXXIV, May 2012

Your Military History Newsletter Project news: From the editors; award recipients; contest results Articles: The month's Featured and A-class content Book reviews: Bomzibar on Chiang Kai-shek; Nick-D on the Falklands War Interview: Article writers discuss biographies Op-ed: Nick-D examines using news articles as sources

The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here.
If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 14:31, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Source review

Dropping in on your current FAC page I noted a word about source reviews. If you need one done I have access to the British Library and can therefore lay hands on practically everything. Let me know if you need me to carry out a source review. Tim riley (talk) 17:47, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Tim, I have replied at the FAC page. —Cliftonian (talk) 17:52, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

FA for Shangani Patrol

Loud applause on promotion. Absolutely merited, me judice. Tim riley (talk) 20:41, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Hearty thanks are due to you for your hard work at the FAC, which was invaluable in helping it along the way, ek twyfel daar nie —Cliftonian (talk) 20:50, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Naughty! Give an aged Anglophone a translation. I am old enough to be your grandpa! Tim riley (talk) 20:56, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Ek twyfel daar nie means "I have no doubt". :) —Cliftonian (talk) 21:02, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

On behalf of Wikipedian pensioners: don't bother to pursue this. On to more of your and mine Featured Articles. Tim riley (talk) 21:10, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I look forward to collaborating again soon, as I have said before it is always a pleasure. If you are interested in getting a sneak peek at my present work-in-progress, feel free to have a look here. It's not quite done yet, but the meat of the article is there, and I think you'll probably find it entertaining. —Cliftonian (talk) 21:16, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Wondering if you wana help doing List of Israel international footballers with me

Seeing that there are two FL of those sort of articles (France and Germany) I was wondering if you wana help me getting the article going and once finished a FL aswell. I started by putting the first 10 players with atleast 20 apps out of 97 in my sandbox if you want to have a look.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 07:15, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd love to: I've been working on quite heavyweight subjects recently, so I think this would make a very nice change of pace for me. Let's do it! :) —Cliftonian (talk) 09:18, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Awsome, I will finish puting all 97 players with atleast 20 caps no late than tomorrow, if you wish to start the lead it will be amazing. here ofcurse.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 09:24, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Sounds great, כל הכבוד —Cliftonian (talk) 09:26, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I have finished putting the rest of the players, do you think you can mention the 1956 Asian Cup win and the 1970 World Cup part?, PS: once finished I also want to take it to DYK, any advice on what to write in the blurb?
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 04:54, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Yep, I'll do that later on today, I need to sleep now (long story). For DYK I'd write something like "... that 467 association football players have represented Israel in international matches?" or whatever, something quite basic. If you like I'll help you with it properly when the time comes, but I'm going to sleep now, talk later. —Cliftonian (talk) 04:58, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay Honor, I've done a bit more work on it and it's starting to look good to me now. We just need a couple more references for the lead and alt text and the pictures and I think we're good to go. One thing I will just ask you is that while I was looking at the players' individual pages, I noticed that the stats on this list sometimes don't match those on the players' individual pages. If I were you I would just check that you've got all the statistics 100% right, and there aren't any clerical errors. But well done so far, and I think we can probably nominate this relatively soon. —Cliftonian (talk) 14:46, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Ok cool, I will ref those. The players stats comes from the IFA website, and added IFA recognized stats. The IFA records include some matchs that FIFA do not recognise. An exemple can be seen here: elel website, see the notes from bellow the table about some of those games. PS: Darkest blue is FIFA records, Purple/Azure are also IFA recognized alongside the darkest blue, and the almost white blue is games against "national teams" which IFA and FIFA don't recognize.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 15:02, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm. We should probably put a note explaining that the statistics we're using are those maintained by the IFA, which include some matches not recognised as official by FIFA, then give a couple of examples. What do you think? —Cliftonian (talk) 15:03, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I think its a good idea on doing so. just so you know FIFA didn't recognised the game against Czech Republic from three days ago. I do not sure why, maybe bcuz they were not realy the first team but more like Czech second team.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 15:11, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Maybe they don't recognise the authority of the imperialist Zionist régime to legally field a team :P —Cliftonian (talk) 15:13, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

lol, with how Israel national teams play lately I am not sure we will win with 13 players against 11.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 15:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

That's the spirit! —Cliftonian (talk) 15:18, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

So how much do you think we will beat the Germans?
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 15:22, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

They lost to Switzerland, so they'll probably bounce back from that and make mincemeat of us, but one can always hope. That said, FIFA probably won't deem it an official game if we win. —Cliftonian (talk) 15:26, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I have added the alts. Do you think its good to go or we need anything else?
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 10:49, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I think it looks good now. Nominate it as soon as you're ready. —Cliftonian (talk) 10:53, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

The DYK, if you think of a better blurb please go ahead.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 11:17, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Was the first game not in 1931? —Cliftonian (talk) 11:18, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Scratch that, my mistake. —Cliftonian (talk) 11:21, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

The FLC. Now lets hope it do it fast.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 11:25, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure this will be relatively straightforward, I see no way there could be any major issue. —Cliftonian (talk) 11:26, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Same here, but hey, we got it ready for tonight first "live edit", lol.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 11:32, 31 May 2012 (UTC)