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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Israel international footballers/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 20:08, 25 July 2012 [1].

List of Israel international footballers edit

List of Israel international footballers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): HonorTheKing (talk), Cliftonian (talk), 11:22, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We are nominating this for featured list because we believe the list meets the criteria.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 11:22, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 13:58, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "the nation of Israel in " any need for "the nation of" immediately after "national..."?
  • "It is fielded by the" maybe just me but this reads odd, is that the same as "governed" or similar?
  • I'm not so sure. It could hypothetically be fielded by a separate organisation than the one which governs Israeli football (though that would not make much sense). We could reword if it reads strangely, but to me it look okay as it is. —Cliftonian (talk) 18:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "at least once" seems redundant to me.
  • "As the number of Israeli international players runs into the hundreds, only those with 20 or more caps are listed here" I would just have a semi-colon after the previous sentence and then say "only those with 20 or more caps are listed here."
  • When you pipelink tournaments, I'm not sure there's a good reason to include "in" in the piped link.
  • I was always under the impression you shouldn't link years on their own, as it could make people think the link goes to an article about that year. This removes that possibility. —Cliftonian (talk) 18:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The active player closest..." he's domestically active, but how can you prove he's still internationally "active"?
  • He played against Germany on Thursday night, but I agree "active" is not a term I would usually use in this context. I've replaced with "current". —Cliftonian (talk) 18:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same comment for Aouate.
  • "Players are listed by number of caps" "initially listed"... it's a sortable list.
  • Don't see a need for the # column since it sorts identically to the Caps column.
  • It lets you easily see what rank the player holds in terms of international caps without having to count the rows manually. —Cliftonian (talk) 18:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Where two or more players have the same number of both caps and goals, they are listed alphabetically." well, when I sort by Caps in ascending order, Nimni comes before Kirat despite them having the same number of caps and goals...
  • Eh, I can't get the thing to sort this right, so we'll just lose it for now. —Cliftonian (talk) 18:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cohen's image (on my screen) creates enormous whitespace after the table.
  • Perhaps a stupid question but what makes elel.co.il reliable?

The Rambling Man (talk) 16:53, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • They give a list of sources here. I don't know if you read Hebrew or not, but I think the chances are you don't, so I'll give a basic summary. It lists lots of Hebrew newspapers, with dates (for example, Amar 1936–1942, Davar 1930–1990, Doar Hayom 1930–1936 etc), some foreign ones (which are given in English, so you can read them), and some websites (the Israeli FA, the Wingate Institute, the RSSSF and and FIFA). It then lists individuals who gave time and effort, and thanks some other people, football clubs and organisations for photos. I think it seems quite solid but I'll defer to consensus if it goes against it. Honor replaced it with an RSSSF ref. Thanks for the comments Rambling Man. —Cliftonian (talk) 18:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Harrias talk
  • I can't see anything in Ref #13 that says either that Walid Badir is an Israeli Arab, or that he is the most-capped Israeli Arab.
  • Just a question; why choose to use the IFA statistics rather than FIFAs? As an Englishman, I have no love for FIFA, but theirs would seem to me to be the more official numbers?
  • Some of the games are considered unofficial by FIFA, generally because the opposition fields a weakened team (see the RSSSF ref for individual details), but in these cases the Israeli FA considers the caps official since its own team was at full strength, even if the opponent wasn't. I'd say using different numbers to the ones maintained by the Israeli FA could lead to confusion should we ever (hypothetically) get the situation where the Israelis are claiming to have a new record cap-holder or goalscorer, but FIFA are disagreeing. I think using the IFA's numbers is acceptable so long as we make clear we are doing so, which we are. Perhaps a footnote might be useful here. —Cliftonian (talk) 14:33, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • There don't appear to be any references supporting the "Position" column, which may lead to the thought that it is original research.
  • I can see how this could be an issue, but one can easily click on the player's name to check his position if it is in doubt. As always, though, I'm happy to defer to consensus on this. —Cliftonian (talk) 14:33, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, the list looks very good and well maintained; nice work! Harrias talk 13:45, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Reckless182 (talk) 17:54, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • The only thing I feel is missing from the list is the mention of national team captains. Would it be possible to mention this in the lead somehow or highlight players in the list who have also captained the team? I realise that this may be a layout problem since an additional column would probably make the images to the right appear incorrectly due to the lack of space.
  • This might be me being picky but the "work" parameter for all references as well as the "trans_title" for the references in Hebrew could be used to make the reference list even better. For the latter parameter the original Hebrew title would be placed in the "title" parameter and the title translated into English in the "trans_title" parameter.

Other than the minor issues, I think this would be an excellent addition to the collections of FLs. Great work! --Reckless182 (talk) 17:51, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Perhaps a separate list of captains could be made at some point? I fear adding this kind of thing could cause a great deal of clutter and overcomplicate somewhat... As for the "work" and "trans_title" parameters, what would you suggest adding in the "work" parameter? "eng.football.co.il"? I don't really see what that would add, if I'm honest, and it would be repeated so many times... So far as "trans_title" goes, the article titles will be in Hebrew, which I'm not sure most readers on an English encyclopaedia such as this will be able to read. In any case, if you want to see the Hebrew title you can easily click the link and read the article. I'm not even going to get into the potential issues that can result from putting right-to-left script in the middle of the left-to-right text. So again, although I appreciate the suggestion, I'm not sure it would necessarily be a great improvement. Thanks for the comments, and I look forward to seeing more of your thoughts. —Cliftonian (talk) 14:23, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see the problem with the captains, a separate list is a great idea. You could still mention the fact in the lead, for example Benayoun, something like "he is also the current captain of the team", and the same for any of the other players mentioned in the lead. I hadn't really though about the problem with Hebrew writing, perhaps it is better to leave it as it is. For the work parameters, I myself would add eng.football.co.il for these refs for extra clarity but I would happily support this list either way. --Reckless182 (talk) 15:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, I've put that Benayoun is captain, and put an appropriate reference. I really don't think the eng.football.co.il work parameter is necessary, frankly, it just clogs the references section up and doesn't really add much. —Cliftonian (talk) 15:59, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

  • It should say in the lead that 97 players are in the list.
  • Is it necessary to say who is the most capped Arab-Israeli player. Obviously Israel, along with Northern Ireland, has a difficult political situtaion but I personally wouldn't expect it to say on Northern Ireland's list who the most capped Catholic player was.
  • I think it is worth saying because of the relatively small number of Arab players who have historically played in the Israeli team (particularly compared to the huge number of Catholics who have played for NI over the years). It is only in the last couple of decades that there have been any Arabs in the Israeli team at all, and even then it was somewhat controversial for some to have them there. I think the identity of the most prominent Israeli-Arab international is likely to be a subject of interest to many readers, and I certainly don't think it can hurt to include it. —Cliftonian (talk) 17:24, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is IFA the correct abbreviation for the Israel FA. I think that's Northern Ireland's FIFA abbreviation although if you are just abbreviating it for the purposes of the article then it doesn't really matter. Adam4267 (talk) 13:43, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, excellent list and the name Mordechai Spiegler will amuse me for the rest of the night. Adam4267 (talk) 19:50, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the comments and the kind words, Adam; I'm not sure exactly what's funny about Spiegler's name, but I'm glad it's amusing you —Cliftonian (talk) 20:34, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

_ Support Adam4267 (talk) 22:39, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Before commenting on the list itself, I'm wondering whether 20 caps is the ideal limit. The standard for players lists nowadays is to have two or three lists that together encompass all the players to have appeared for that team. For example, List of Birmingham City F.C. players draws the limit at 100 apps, then there's List of Birmingham City F.C. players (25–99 appearances) and List of Birmingham City F.C. players (fewer than 25 appearances). Obviously those aren't national team player lists, but I think the scope for inclusion is something worth revising if spin-off lists were to be considered. There's 450+ Israel internationals and this list presently contains approximately 100, so if other lists were made I think the 20 cap limit would need to be lowered to make the number between the two or three lists more equal. Not saying I'm expecting either of you to create another list or two to list all Israel internationals, or that that would be necessary for me in supporting this list's nomination, but I thought I'd bring this up as something to consider for the long-term.
  • If other lists are made in the long run I think this is along the right lines, but for now at least we're not doing that. Thanks for this. —Cliftonian (talk) 19:32, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you know the date of the last match played? I think it'd be better if "Statistics are correct as of 31 May 2012" could be rephrased "Statistics are correct as of the match played on [date of last match]".
  • After this sentence the reference that covers appearances ("National Team Appearances list") is included, so shouldn't the ref for goals ("National Team Goalscorers list") be included too?
  • I'm not sure about "Still active for the national team"; as the footnote explains, this refers to players who are still eligible to play, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're still active in the national squad. I think "Still eligible for the national team" or some such, along with a rephrased foonote, would be better.
  • "Israel national team football players" - should be "Israel national team footballers", for consistency.
  • "National team career" represents the years of players' first and last caps. Perhaps this should be noted somwhere above the table for clarity, as some readers might not be aware that this is the case?
  • When players have the same numbers of caps and goals, in what order are they then listed? This needs mentioning in the text above the table.
  • WP:WIAFL criterion 5a states that only a "minimal proportion of items are redlinked". At the moment 17 of the 97 wikilinks in the list are redlinks. I don't know if there's a rule of thumb regarding what proportion is recommended in practice, but that figure seems a little steep to me.
  • Hopefully Honor can work on this a little, I don't have the sources for this and my Hebrew is kind of spurious to boot. —Cliftonian (talk) 19:32, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I will try and make some of those articles with books and online refs I would be able to locate.
      – HonorTheKing (talk) 19:50, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Due to the number of references I'd recommend splitting the "References" column in two.
  • It was split by "colwidth" before, but I've made it a bit thinner, hope this is better now —Cliftonian (talk) 19:32, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Israel National Team – List of Official Games" ref is missing author and date info.

Cheers, Mattythewhite (talk) 21:13, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the comments Matty, I hope I've resolved the issues raised. —Cliftonian (talk) 19:32, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support cannot find any issues with the list—great work! Arsenikk (talk) 09:08, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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