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Engines on M-50 subvariants
Were the original M-50s built from M4A3 and M4A4 vehicles and then subsequently Israeli sources obtained additional M4s with different engines? I'm just confused. The M4 and M4A1 are the only series which should have had the Continental engine from what I can find, with M4A2s using a GM 6046, the M4A3s using Ford GAAs, and the M4A4s using Chrysler A57s. I'm also curious as to where Cummins diesal engines would have been refitted. Not saying any of this is incorrect, as the Tzahal has been known at that time to use sweeping designations for vehicles often solely based on engine rather than anything else (creates problems with halftracks too), but I am curious. -- Thatguy96 14:17 27 May 2006a
- First of all, thanks for the correction. Of course I meant M4, not M3. As far as I know you are right, M4 and M4A1 were the only one produced with the Continental engine. However, most of Shermans obtained by Israel were in a non-operational state, sometimes literally found at junkyards. E.g. by late 1953 Israel had 76 operational Shermans (including repaired) and 131 non-operational. Those made operational were apparently rarely "repaired" in a strict sense but more built from available parts (reportedly some even had 75 mm Krupp field guns mounted... a pity none of those survived). So I'll not be surprised by any combination of hull, engine, suspension, armament etc.
- Looks like many of the purchased tanks were M4A1 and some were M4. So it's quite possible IDF had some spare Continentals. Some M4A4 hulls can be seen in museums and on IDF photos. I'm not sure what's the difference between A2 and A3 hulls once engine had been replaced (both non-stretched welded with rear plate that reaches below the sponsons level), but hulls that are either A2 or A3 can also be seen. Granovsky's article also mentions that in 1951 40 M4A4 but with Continental R-975 were bought from France, which puzzles me a bit, but who said we were the only one to build tanks from junk ? I've found two M-50 (one in Yad la-Shiryon and one used as a memorial in Tel-Aviv), both have that either-A2-or-A3 hull.
- Cummins engines were apparently fitted in Israel by IDF facilities.
- And, you are right again, IDF sometimes wasn't especially accurate with designations, so there is a chance there was an error in some primary source and this error propagates now from article to article...
- I'll try to dig more information, but it will take time. Bukvoed 20:06, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The A3 has wider access grate-doors on the top engine deck (and their fill cap locations differ).
Wikist 06:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. Unfortunately M-50 Cummins, judging by the tank in Yad la-Shiryon, had modified engine deck that is not similar to those of A2 or A3 or any other variant. And my guess is that M-50 Continental probably had decks salvaged from M4/M4A1s together with their engines. Bukvoed 15:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
If they replaced external hull plates on the rear, then there might be no way of distinguishing M4 Continental, M4A3 Ford, and M4A4 Chrysler after re-engining short of tracing a serial number through the scrapyard and back to the original factory.Wikist 20:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
- I added the dash ( - ) in M-50 and M-51 in the picture captions and would like to add it in the title of the article, but I cannot get to it. Who can tell me how to, or do it? That dash needs to be there; there is a big difference between e.g. a F-100 and a F100; with dash denotes a vehicle, in this case an airplane; without, it refers to an engine. It is a modern laziness to omit that sign; now it seems to be official in the US Armed Forces but it definitely was not a decade ago. VNCCC (talk) 14:27, 5 December 2009 (UTC)