Talk:Posting system

Irabu or Nomo?

The article on [Hideki Irabu] says that the posting system came about because of the San Diego Padres claiming his exclusive rights. This article says it came about because of Nomo. Which one is right? If it's a little of both, we should expand the article to fully explain. --Don Sowell 15:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I think I wrote the part about Nomo, but I didn't refer to any sources (I know, I know, always cite). This International Herald Tribune article suggests that the Irabu saga was the motivation, while this MLB.com piece says Nomo (and Alfonso Soriano). I do agree that it's a little of both, in that losing Nomo and Soriano without compensation motivated Japanese teams to come up with a formalized system, while the Irabu ordeal created the motivation for MLB players, and by extension, MLB teams. Ytny (talk) 18:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Posting Fee in US Dollars or Yen?

The popular press in the US tends to report posting fees in US Dollars --- for example, Daisuke Matsuzaka's posting fee was reported widely as $51.11 million (6 billion yen). This leads me to assume that the Boston Red Sox offered the Seibu Lions a posting fee in a round number of Japanese yen and the news media converted it to a rough US dollar equivalent when they reported the story. But is this always the case or are US teams free to offer bids in dollars or yen? Rickterp 14:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure they are the dollar amounts and the teams are just being playful with their bids. The 194 on the end of the bid for Kei Igawa, for example, represents how many times he struck someone out in his previous season. Torsodog (talk) 05:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

And similarly, Red Sox's bid for Matsuzaka was actually, $51,111,111.11, which I'm can't find any source explaining the significance of, except possibly Theo Epstein's love of Price is Right. --Mosmof (talk) 12:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's a fuller explanation of the amount. -Phoenixrod (talk) 07:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

GA review

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

• the first sentence (the introduction sentence), it says that it is in effect between Japan's NPB and MLB, is there an MLB in Japan, if not, it should read "and the United States MLB"
• The second sentence also needs revision, and since there were no set legal rules in place to govern process, problems arose. (do you mean "to govern the process"?)
• I believe that the word "major" in the third sentence is not needed. Sounds un-neutral.
• This retirement enabled Nomo to void his contract with the Buffaloes and sign with the Los Angeles Dodgers a year later where he put together a season worthy of winning him the National League Rookie of the Year award.-there is a missing punctuation here, that makes the sentence read akward, "," should be before the "where". Also that last part of that sentence read un-neutral, it should read more along the lines of "where he played a season that placed him as a candidate for the NLRotY award.
• In the pats posting table, there one of the "winning bids" reads "Undisclosed", could you elaborate on what is meant here?
• Also, in what currency is the winning bid in?

1. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

2. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

3. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

   There are some places, which I posted above, that need revision.

4. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

   There has been a recent IP edit, where he changed one of the sentences, is the edit correct, or incorrect?

5. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

6. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   This is a well written article, and meets many of aspects of the GA-criteria, however, there a few minor problems, but I assume they can be fixed promptly, and the article can pass then, but for now, I will give it a week's time before it is passed or fail. Good Luck!SRX 21:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Checklist

•  Done The first sentence (the introduction sentence), it says that it is in effect between Japan's NPB and MLB, is there an MLB in Japan, if not, it should read "and the United States MLB"
•  Done The second sentence also needs revision, and since there were no set legal rules in place to govern process, problems arose. (do you mean "to govern the process"?)
•  Done I believe that the word "major" in the third sentence is not needed. Sounds un-neutral.
•  Done This retirement enabled Nomo to void his contract with the Buffaloes and sign with the Los Angeles Dodgers a year later where he put together a season worthy of winning him the National League Rookie of the Year award.-there is a missing punctuation here, that makes the sentence read akward, "," should be before the "where". Also that last part of that sentence read un-neutral, it should read more along the lines of "where he played a season that placed him as a candidate for the NLRotY award.
•  Done In the past posting table, there one of the "winning bids" reads "Undisclosed", could you elaborate on what is meant here?
•  Done Also, in what currency is the winning bid in?
•  Done There has been a recent IP edit, where he changed one of the sentences, is the edit correct, or incorrect? (it was not technically incorrect, though I changed it to "neither team" in order to avoid any confusion)
•  Done There are some places, which I posted above, that need revision.

First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to review my article! Secondly, I have addressed every suggestion outlined in the your checklist, hopefully adequately. I hope this is enough to have it pass the GA criteria. Torsodog (talk) 22:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Looks way more better, just one thing you said you checked, but you didn't. Which was, "In what currency is the Bid under? USD or Yen?SRX 22:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I addressed it in the Process section by adding the parenthetical phrase in The Commissioner then notifies all MLB teams of the posted player and holds a four-day-long silent auction during which interested MLB teams submit sealed bids (in USD) to the Commissioner’s Office. Did you have something less subtle in mind? Torsodog (talk) 23:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I missed that. Thank you. Now that these concerns have been addressed, this article is now a GA. Congratulations.SRX 23:23, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments

I was asked to provide some additional comments for this article in preparation for an FA nom. Below are those comments (and no, that wasn't supposed to sound like the beginning of an episode of Law and Order).

Comments from KV5

• "NPB players have never been subject to the Rule 4 Draft, which MLB teams traditionally use to acquire amateur players." - a reference is needed

• Hm, I'll try to find one, but it is such an obvious fact that it might be difficult. I could try to reword it using the sources I do have, however, if I can't find a new, adequate source.

• Follow-up: I ended up just removing the sentence as it wasn't necessary at all. I introduced the '67 Agreement instead.

• I question the use of date ranges using slashes (e.g., 2006/07). The preferable method would be 2006–2007, I believe, per WP:DASH.

• Per WP:YEAR, a slash is used when a period of time is less than 12 months, which a posting period is (4 months)

• "have enjoyed successful careers in MLB" - would be better as "have enjoyed successful MLB careers".

• Done

• You use the acronym (US) without defining it; also, "U.S." is the preferred usage.

• Done

• "While playing for the San Francisco Giants' Class-A team, the Fresno Giants, one of the players, pitcher Masanori Murakami, was named California League Rookie of the Year." - this sentence seems choppy because of all the offset comma phrases. I suggest the following: One of the players, pitcher Masanori Murakami, was named the California League Rookie of the Year while playing for the Fresno Giants (the San Francisco Giants' Class-A team).

• Done

• "first Japanese player to play in MLB" - there is a list of countries by first MLB player (somewhere) that could easily be linked here.

• Hmmm I can't seem to find the list. I'll keep looking though.

• Got it. Here you go. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

• "NPB officials objected, however, stating that they" - the "however" causes a reading issue to my eyes, I would remove it; the meaning isn't changed without it.

• Gone

• "told the them"

• Ha! oops. gone!

• "After a two month stalemate" - "two-month"

• added

• "After pitching strongly the following season for the Giants," - this could be WP:POV. What is "strongly"? Choice statistics, backed by a source like Baseball-Reference, would help to alleviate this.

• I used to have stats in this portion of the article, but I felt it got into unneeded detail considering the article's topic. I see your point though and I'll work something out.

• Actually, I just removed "strongly". How he pitched that year is irrelevant to the topic.

• "became the second Japane-born player" - Japan-born or Japanese

• oops, changed to Japanese

• "He announced his retirement from NPB in late 1994" isn't covered by the current ref, another is needed

• Ugh, this Time article is crap. They actually have the dates/years wrong in the article. Poor fact checking in that thing. Anyways, I'll check my book source to see if I can simply use that instead.

• I removed the Time article from this section but still used it for another ref elsewhere.

• "signing rights to another Don Nomura-client" - and remove dash

• Gone

• "The Major League Baseball Players Association (MLBPA) sided with Irabu" - add comma after

• added

• "the Padres gave in and traded Irabu to the Yankees" - add comma after

• added

• "The final incident occurred the next year" - add comma after

• Wow, usually people say I use commas TOO much! Added

• "Soriano hired Don Nomura to help rectify his situation"

• Gone

• Check for overlinking - several terms, including MLB Commissioner and List of Major League Baseball players from Japan, are double-linked

• Both examples are only linked in the article prose once now, though I left the list linked a second time in the image caption

• "nonnegotiable" - "non-negotiable"

• I thought this looked weird, but Firefox didn't underline it so I kept it. I changed it though

• "the winning Major League team" - MLB should be used like the rest of the article

• you're right, changed

• "Of the thirteen, seven were immediately signed to Major League contracts. These contracts range from $1.4 million to $52 million. Of the remaining five, three were signed to minor league contracts and four were unsuccessful in drawing bids from any Major League clubs." - Seven plus five is twelve. A math check is needed here.

• Corrected. There was another number mistake stemming from players reposting themselves that I also fixed here.

• Kaz Ishii's bid looks to be incomplete ("$11,260,00")

• sure is. added that extra 0

• "system's imposition by NPB club owners" - system was enacted by NPB club owners

• changed

• "nor did the union ratified it" - ratify

• done

• Link "human trafficking"

• linked

• "According to one JPBPA official, however, the Japanese court process is too long and involved, therefore the 'problem can't be helped.'" - However, according to one JPBPA official, the Japanes court process is too long and involved; therefore, the "problem can't be helped.

• changed

• "Some NPB insiders" - who? One person is not "some".

• ok, changed

• "He could allege that by requiring MLB teams to pay large transfer fees to NPB teams, the posting system artificially depresses the player's compensation." sounds speculative. I would re-word the surrounding sentences to Sheinin suggested that, if the negotiations were to fail, Boras could take legal action, alleging that requiring MLB teams to pay large transfer fees to NPB teams artificially depresses the player's compensation.

• Sounds good. I had a hard time writing the legal bits of this article. Thanks for the suggestion!

Hope that these comments are helpful; if you could leave me a talk page message when they are complete, I will re-review at that time. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 15:22, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Your comments were very helpful. Thanks! I changed most of them but 3 or 4 of them require me to do a bit of research, so those changes are still in the works for now. I'll let you know when I address them all. Thanks again! --Torsodog^Talk 16:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

• This article looks very well done. I'm even more impressed now! One thing I saw: "November 1–March 1" needs to be a spaced en-dash per WP:DASH. Cheers! KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:28, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Nice catch! I added the spaces. And thanks for finding that list of first players in the MLB. For some reason I had a lot of trouble finding it. --Torsodog^Talk 22:23, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Confusing

What do these sentences mean? "After the Nomo case, NPB officials had amended the Working Agreement to prevent the situation from recurring. However, MLB officials were never told of any changes to the Agreement." That is, if there's an agreement, but the parties don't know about it, how can there be an agreement? Smallbones (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

That is kind of the point. The NPB amended the agreement to prevent something like the Nomo case from happening again, but since MLB had not agreed to any changes, they proceeded under the conditions of the agreement pre-amendment and declared Soriano a free agent anyways.

Still, it is quite confusing. There must be some better wording.

I gave rewording a it a shot. Check it out and let me know if there is still any confusion.

"Presently, the agreement is in effect on a year-to-year basis, terminable at the option of either the MLB Commissioner or the NPB Commissioner provided notice to terminate is given 180 days prior to December 15 of any given year.[13]" Presumably this mean anytime prior to June 18? Smallbones (talk) 14:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes. The actual agreement words it similarly to how I have worded it in the article. Would you prefer it to state June 18th specifically? --Torsodog^Talk 15:05, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I would prefer it as June 18th. There is no reason to repeat the legal words of a contract, when people will wonder "Does that mean something other than June 18?" (after they do the math). Smallbones (talk) 15:39, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Good point. I changed it June 18th. Reads a cleaner now. --Torsodog^Talk 18:05, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

2nd paragraph

Nice article on an obscure subject! If I had a critique it would be that the beginning of paragraph 2 led me to believe that the sealed bids would go to the player rather than his NPB team. I may be expecting too much to ask that everything be explained in a single sentence rather than two. Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:26, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Hyun-jin Ryu

Hyun-jin Ryu is being posted to MLB from KBO. That seems to be something that should be added here, but this article is only about the NPB process. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:27, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

More explanation would be helpful

Reading the article it isn't clear to me why MLB ever agreed to this, especially considering it only applies to Japan-to-US players and not the reverse. It doesn't seem to serve their interests at all. Perhaps someone can explain.Sylvain1972 (talk) 17:25, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

There really isn't too much to explain. MLB agreed to this because they want an avenue to get great NPB players. That is the only interest the system is serving for MLB. The system is mostly in place to protect NPB from losing it's best players early to MLB, thus destroying their league. --Torsodog^Talk 16:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Expanding scope?

Torsodog and Dale Arnett (pinging both of you because you've been the most active editors on this article over the last couple of years), can you take a look at this recent edit? It introduces things that seemingly expand the scope of the entire article, to include the KBO. I removed the edit because it's mostly poorly sourced and written, but I think it warrants discussion. --Laser brain (talk) 18:15, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

To the anonymous editor insisting on this text: Please discuss why you are re-introducing the same text without addressing my concerns about the quality of writing and sources. --Laser brain (talk) 18:26, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I was aware of the KBO version of the posting system though not familiar of all of the details. From what I can tell it looks like the systems started out identical but they have been evolving differently since their inception. I'm going to do some research but my initial impressions make me thing that it might be worth mentioning in this article but then creating a separate KBO posting system article that outlines its specifics and history. --Torsodog^Talk 01:48, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll go with Torsodog's plan here. If what he's saying pans out, the two systems are now different enough that they need separate articles. — Dale Arnett (talk) 02:22, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We're currently in a state where the lead mentions something that isn't really discussed in the body at all, other than the table covering two transactions. This goes against WP:LEAD and the article doesn't currently meet the FA criteria because of it. We'll need to address that soon. --Laser brain (talk) 11:58, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

My understanding is that the KBO posting system is the same as the NPB system used to be (i.e., blind bids and 30 days to negotiate with the high bidder). I will bring this to the attention of WP:BASEBALL, because I'm not sure if the KBO posting should go here or in its own article. – Muboshgu (talk) 12:18, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Pinging Torsodog and Dale Arnett. Just another note that the article is not following WP:LEAD currently and thus does not meet the Featured Article criteria. An interested editor needs to either fully write about KBO in this article, or split it off and remove KBO from the lead and the transaction tables. --Laser brain (talk) 13:10, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I'd say it's time for an article fork. The KBO article can be tagged as a stub until it gets fleshed out. If you don't mind, Torsodog, I nominate you to do the fork. You seem to be the most knowledgeable of us about the KBO system, and I have a bunch of things on my plate in the next few days. — Dale Arnett (talk) 16:35, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm working on it now. I'll have something worth posting by the end of the night. --Torsodog^Talk 20:49, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

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