Talk:Keihin–Tōhoku Line

Negishi Line?

Well, I have to say Negishi Line is not a nickname, it's legal. Please answer whether I can erase Negishi Line data from this article, and make a new article about Negishi Line on my talk page. If anyone doesn't response in a day, I'll do it without permission. --Izumi5 14:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

That sounds ok to me. Besides removing all of the stations after Yokohama from the table, are you going to take care of the {{Keihin-Tohoku Line}} template too? Neier 23:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I object to any deletions from this article, or from the existing template. Also, the Keihin-Tohoku Line is inclusive of (is a superset of) the Negishi Line, so there's no need for a separate article. However, the Negishi Line should, perhaps, be mentioned in a separate section within this article.--Endroit 23:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, it is not a complete superset. JR's online timetable lists it as 京浜東北線・根岸線, but there are also the rare trains that start at Ōfuna, and go up to Yokohama before turning and continuing on towards Hachiōji. In reading the Japanese article on ja:根岸線, it seems that even JR is somewhat reticent to decide on the segment -- on platforms between Yokohama and Ōfuna, north-bound trains are labelled Keihin-Tōhoku; while south-bound trains are labelled Negishi. I don't have any strong preference either way, and won't get involved in reverting to either way; but, moving the stations to Negishi Line would be consistent with the Japanese wikipedia. Back when I made the table, I included all the stations that were listed in the article, because I couldn't think of a compelling reason to exclude them. But, if they hadn't been listed, I wouldn't have added them either. Neier 10:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I see. I'm going to edit {{Keihin-Tohoku Line}} and create {{Negishi Line}} and separated article, but without excluding any information from this article. --Izumi5 13:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for not deleting anything. Please keep "Keihin-Tōhoku Line" intact with no deletions, because that line is similar to the Chuo-Sobu Line (the yellow train). The various definitions of the JR lines are irrelevant, as the blue trains are usually called "Keihin-Tōhoku Line" and the service extends all the way to Ofuna (doesn't end at Yokohama Station). Please don't mimic the Japanese Wikipedia on this because their omission of the Negishi Line looks bad.

Also, whether the Yokohama Line includes "Negishi Line" too is irrelevant, as it's very rare that the "Yokohama Line" goes all the way to Ofuna Station. You can create a separate "Negishi Line" article if you like, and it might be interesting to cover the different definitions of the Keihin-Tōhoku Line, Yokohama Line, and the Negishi Line in that new article.--Endroit 16:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I've changed my mind about the Negishi Line article. "Keihin-Tōhoku Line" and "Negishi Line" are part of a single commuter line service, and belong in the same article.--Endroit 15:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge Negishi Line into this article

Keihin-Tōhoku Line and Negishi Line are part of a single commuter line service, and so should be in the same article. The service is contiguous (Yokohama Station is not a terminus for this contiguous JR line service).

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support the merge, as nominator.--Endroit 15:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC) Withdrawing vote, per discussion below. "Freight train service" added into the Negishi Line article per Neier's cited source, so that the article can stand on its own now.--Endroit 04:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support - Most common train service is Ofuna to Omiya --Polaron | Talk 16:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. I've changed my mind too. There are other train cars which start on one line (such as the Chiyoda Line) and continues on other lines; and the Shinkansen are another good example (Yamagata Shinkansen starts at Fukushima; Hokuriku Shinkansen starts at Takasaki. But, AFAIK there are no shinkansen that run from Yamagata and stop at Fukushima (they continue to Tokyo, usually after connecting with some other cars). So, I understand the reason that the ja: wikipedia has separated the information, because it is consistent with the other lines. Neier 22:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
  • In all your your examples, I believe there is a change in personnel at the station where the line changes so this is a somewhat different case. The Chuo-Sobu local train is probably the one that is analogous. I believe that the train service from Omiya to Ofuna (whatever you want to call it) should have a single article since but definitely not titled using the proposed name. --Polaron | Talk 23:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Keihin-Tohoku Line is a nickname, while Negishi Line is a official line name. These things considered, dividing these lines to two articles will stand to reason. But, it is the fact that north-bound platform is labelled Keihin-Tōhoku/Negishi Line (京浜東北・根岸線, -sen). --Izumi5 13:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

• There are three articles, Chuo-Sobu Line, Chuo Main Line, and Sobu Main Line. I am not opposed to creating a third article Keihin-Tohoku Line - Negishi Line, but both the existing Keihin-Tohoku Line and Negishi Line articles should stay. Neier 23:47, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Chuo-Sobu Line is the Yellow train, analogous to the Keihin-Tohoku Line (the Light-Blue train). Chuo Main Line is analogous to the Tokaido Main Line, and Sobu Main Line is analogous to the Tohoku Main Line. These six are distinct and separate train line articles, with the proper terminal stations listed correctly in those articles.
  • Please apply the proper standards here. Show us that the Yokohama Station is the terminus for the Negishi Line. You can't, because trains originating in Ofuna terminate somewhere between Kamata and Omiya. Also, show us that the Keihin-Tohoku Line terminates at Yokohama Station. You can't, because trains going in that direction terminate at Sakuragicho or Kamata, but NOT Yokohama. So you will end up creating superficial train services which don't exist in real life, if you keep the articles separate.--Endroit 00:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
• Please cite a source which mentions 京浜東北線・根岸線 and does so WITHOUT mentioning the fact that the Negishi line consists of stations south of Yokohama station, while the Keihin-Tohoku line consists of stations north of Yokohama station. Anytime that I see the combination line name, it always mentions the distinct separation too (including http://www.negishiline.net/negishi-line.html ). So, as I said, the combinational article seems fine; but, it doesn't mean that Keihin-Tohoku Line no longer exists, or that there should not be an independent article for it. The Yokohoma - Ofuna stations do not belong in a Keihin-Tohoku Line article; just as Kawasaki, Shinagawa, and Omiya don't belong in a Negishi Line article. (Or, Shinjuku doesn't belong in a Sobu Main Line article, nor does Chiba Station belong in an article about the Chuo Main Line, although both are on the Chuo-Sobu service). Neier 04:03, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I see your point. We can have the combined article focusing on the train service itself but leave the individual articles on the train lines. I think this does make more sense. Otherwise, we'd have to merge Sobu Line (Rapid) and Yokosuka Line as well. --Polaron | Talk 04:42, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The "Negishi Line" article can survive, if we include the cargo trains (貨物 kamotsu) details from Neier's cited source. I can work on that. However, I will have to merge the {{Negishi Line}} template back into the {{Keihin-Tohoku Line}} template. I fail to see any citation supporting an independent "Negishi Line" passenger service.--Endroit 17:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Templates for Sobu Line (Rapid) and Yokosuka Line are already merged, as {{Yokosuka Line Sobu Line (Rapid)}}.--Endroit 20:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
• The use of the term "Negishi Line" seems to be so passe in Yokohama. The trend seems to be to avoid using "Negishi Line" on its own. Here are some Negishi Line citations, showing how the term "Keihin Tohoku Line" is used for the "Negishi Line" segment, and in some cases "Negishi Line" is avoided altogether:
  1. Yokohama Minato Mirai 21 Corporation / Minato Mirai 21 Town Guide Committee
     "JR Keihin Tohoku Line"
     This site never uses the term "Negishi Line"
     http://www.minatomirai21.com/english/directions.html
  2. Yokohama Motomachi Shopping Street Association
     "JR京浜東北線" (JR Keihin-Tōhoku-sen)
     "Negishi Line" is not even mentioned on this page
     http://www.motomachi.or.jp/html/ag/train.html
  3. Yokohama Chinatown Development Association
     "JR京浜東北・根岸線" (JR Keihin-Tōhoku—Negishi-sen) in the text
     "JR京浜東北線" (JR Keihin-Tōhoku-sen) in the train map
     http://www.chinatown.or.jp/access/index.html
  4. Yokohama Isezaki Mall 1 & 2
     "JR京浜東北・根岸線" (JR Keihin-Tōhoku—Negishi-sen) in the text
     "JR根岸線" (JR Negishi-sen) in the map
     http://www.isezaki.jp/contents/mall/04access.html
  5. Yokohama Convention & Visitors Bureau
     "JR Keihintohoku-Line JR Negishi-Line"
     http://www.welcome.city.yokohama.jp/eng/tourism/walking/1010.html
     "JR Line (Tokaido, Yokosuka, Keihintohoku, Yokohama)"
     http://www.welcome.city.yokohama.jp/eng/tourism/walking/1090_1.html
  6. Landmark Tower
     "JR Line"
     This site consistently uses "JR Line", avoiding the naming problem altogether
     http://www.yokohama-landmark.jp/english/access.html
  7. East Japan Railway Company
     "京浜東北・根岸線" (Keihin-Tōhoku—Negishi-sen)
     http://www.jreast.co.jp/estation/stations/740.html (Sakuragicho Station)
     http://www.jreast.co.jp/estation/stations/540.html (Kannai Station)
     http://www.jreast.co.jp/estation/stations/870.html (Shin Sugita Station)
     http://www.jreast.co.jp/estation/stations/342.html (Ofuna Station)
     "根岸線" (Negishi-sen)
     http://www.jreast.co.jp/estation/stations/1638.html (Yokohama Station)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus to move (forgotten anyway). Take to WP:RM if you wish to try again. -Patstuart^talk|edits 21:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Keihin-Tōhoku Line → Keihin-Tōhoku-Negishi Line – This is a single train line service, but the official name is actually 2 names, Keihin-Tōhoku Line—Negishi Line. This article should be named similarly to the Chuo-Sobu Line article, whose official name is Sobu Line—Chuo Line. This is part of a 2-part poll. Endroit 16:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support — as nominator. This article should be renamed to Keihin-Tōhoku-Negishi Line, to conform to the JR timetables, which list this service as Keihin-Tōhoku Line—Negishi Line (京浜東北線・根岸線).--Endroit 15:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose to rename per WP:NC(CN). They are two separate names, sometimes referring to the same section of track, as mentioned above (from the ja: wikipedia). At JR's Site, if you select 根岸線 or 京浜東北線 at the top, you get an exclusive list of stations. At the same page, if you search for 大船 (without any line info in the selector), you will see that JR considers that station does not exist on the 京浜東北線. Creating a third article that encompasses all of the Keihin-Tohoku stations AND the Negishi stations would be acceptable to me, just as Chuo-Sobu Line includes Chuo Main Line and Sobu Main Line, but, renaming this article is a bad idea. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Neier (talk • contribs) .
  • Comment: JR does not exclude any Negishi Line stations from the list of Keihin-Tohoku Line stations (page 2) (page 3). These links shows ALL Negishi Line stations are also considered to be Keihin-Tohoku Line stations at the same time. JR does exclude Negishi Line stations from the list of Yokohama Line stations, however.--Endroit 06:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

It seems in Japan they make less of a distinction between a train line and a train service. This is a single train service using two different train lines and I believe that the 2 articles should definitely be merged. The only concern I have is that using "Keihin-Tohoku-Negishi Line" as the title may be misleading since it is not actually named that way specifically. Keihin-Tōhoku Line—Negishi Line might be better. --Polaron | Talk 16:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps have one article for the line, with sections for each service? I like Polaron's suggestion for a title as it makes it clear they are two separate lines. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 23:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Polaron's title seems just fine. I'm for it. Should I withdraw the WP:RM in favor of Polaron's suggested title?--Endroit 00:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

If you're going to give it a non-intuitive name like Keihin-Tōhoku Line-Negishi Line, I think you should use proper English, i.e. Keihin-Tōhoku and Negishi Line, and then explain within the article about the separate sections, as Nihonjoe stated. There are many such "long" article titles in English, and since there's no real chance that anyone will look for the title Keihin-Tōhoku Line-Negishi Line, it should at least be easy to understand.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  03:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that using "and" in place of the - would be more intuitive. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 08:01, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good also. So which should we use?....

1. Keihin-Tōhoku and Negishi Line
2. Keihin-Tōhoku Line and Negishi Line

--Endroit 14:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Status Quo?

If we have no consensus to change, things will have to remain the way it is now:

• The Keihin-Tōhoku Line article, covering Omiya Station through Ōfuna Station.
• The Negishi Line article, covering Yokohama Station through Ōfuna Station.

Also, I believe that we have consensus against having an independent article covering only the segment from Omiya Station through Yokohama Station.

However, should we change the article name Keihin-Tōhoku Line to one of the following?....

• Keihin-Tōhoku and Negishi Line
• Keihin-Tōhoku Line and Negishi Line

Alternately, Keihin-Tōhoku Line commonly (although no officially) includes Negishi Line as cited above, so it's OK to leave the title as is. Please discuss.--Endroit 16:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I thought that we were going to end up with three articles: one for each of JR's "official" segments Keihin-Tōhoku Line (Ōmiya-Yokohama) and Negishi Line (Yokohama-Ōfuna), and one for the combined service (One of the two choices above). Neier 23:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

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