Talk:Iyer/Archive 2

Aryan Invasion Theory

I request anonymous Ips to kindly stop vandalizing the content on Aryan Invasion Theory. You are welcome to add content which is not POV but kindly stop removing existing references. Thanks-Ravichandar 11:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization, italicization

Capitalization and italicization (for non-English words) is extremely inconsistent in the article. Can we try to reach an agreement on which of the following should be capitalized and/or italicized? And for which this may depend on context? Please feel free to add to the list; if someone is familiar with what is common in English-language works on this topic, please comment on what should or should not be italicized. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:39, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

• Hindu: capitalize, do not italicize
• Iyer: capitalize, do not italicize
• Tamil: capitalize, do not italicize
• Sanskrit: capitalize, do not italicize
• Dravidian: capitalize, do not italicize
• (names of individual deities such as Shiva, Ganesha, Krishna): capitalize, do not italicize
• mutt
• brahmin
• advaita
• veda
• vedic
• alwar
• godhai
• andal
• naivedhya

Iyer and Nair women

Many Kerala Iyers also enjoyed Sambandham relationship with Nair women.

Enjoyed?! Hmmm... I suppose 'practiced' would be a better word. 5 Aug 2005

Significant removal of information

Two large sections of the article — "Rituals,Ceremonies and Festivals" and "Spiritual and philosophical beliefs" — were anonymously removed, without explanation. I'm on a slow connection right now, so I cannot restore, but someone should. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:02, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

More nasty edits

[1] is a weird mix of apparently innocuous edits (such as spelling an grammar corrections), introduction of misspellings ("sugarcane"→"sugercane"), miscellaneous deletions, and some truly nasty additions ("This makes them believe that they are superior by race and colorNeo-Nazism… They have always believed in equal treatment of all human beingsSarcasm.")

Folks: I know very little about the Iyers, but I can spot racism when I see it. Unfortunately, someone edited on top of these bad edits rather than reverting them, and I'm not willing to try to sort out the mess. Someone who knows what they are doing and has some knowledge of the topic should get in here and clean this up. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:40, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I am reverting them. It may take a couple of iterations to get all the relevant stuff back. Tintin 23:20, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! The article is still not going to win any prizes, but at least you got rid of all this egregious stuff. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Churn

This article continues to undergo a lot of churn. Personally, I've given up trying to do anything except prevent blatant vandalism. People keep adding and removing various material. It would help greatly in improving the article if people would enumerate their disagreements and present their cited sources here on the talk page instead of just editing back and forth. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Iyengars

First, I think the article on "Related communities" and reference to history of Iyengars is plain wrong. It tries to create the impression that many of the Iyengars were initially non-Brahmins and hence Iyers are superior. Next, I don't see how the history of Iyengars is relevant in an Iyer page, except to create spite. This section has been removed.

• I reverted it before you posted this justification. Feel free to delete it again but look for a consensus here. Tintin 16:27, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

• Btw, when you delete something, please use edit summary. IP editors + deletion + no edit summary is a very suspect combination. Tintin 23:26, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Ayya-Arya

I suppose "ayya" is an old Dravidian term for ones father or grandfather(also in Chinese). It's used as a honourific term not only for Brahmins but all the elders in the South Indian(I have observed it in Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh) society. Well, I have also learnt that Arya 'tatbhava' is Ajja. From what I heard, in the villages of Andhra and Tamilnadu, the declared lower-castes still use the term ayya to address their father. Since I'm not an expert would somebody point to the source describing why it's considered derivative of arya.

Manjunatha 24 October 2005

Since nobody replied, I edited to give room for other views on the origins of Ayya.

Manjunatha 28 October 2005

Sanskritised Tamil and Aryanization

It's metioned in the article that Sanskritised Tamil gives credence to theory that Ayyars of Indo-Aryan origin. Is that really a credible argument? In fact, there is a Kannada Brahmin caste called Havyakas that speaks a dialect of Kannada with a conspicuous archaic Kannada tilt. I have yet to hear anybody calling them purer Dravidians than their surrounding non-brahmin population. Yes, I agree it's mentioned in the later part of the article that Ayyar share many genetic markers with non-brahmin Tamils. However, I am surprised why it's felt necessary to put the "Indo-Aryan" origins in the beginning of the article.

Manjunatha 28 October 2005

Mutts

This edit drops mention of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham. I have no expertise on the topic, but since it was an anonymous, substantive removal of information, with no edit summary, I thought I would point it out here. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:32, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Can any one add the link Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham once again. Iyers usually visit kanchi or sringeri mutt.There is no doubt there is much rivalry between the followers of the mutt.But it needs to be added , that a lot of Iyers still visit this mutt.So it seems to be a malicious act in removing this item.

Harishsubramanian 13:25, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

So do it! -- Jmabel | Talk 07:37, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

"the highest community of Brahmins"

In the lead sentence: "the highest community of Brahmins (members of the priestly class / caste) of India". No doubt there are Iyers who consider themselves to be such; if this is really an uncontroversial statement that belongs in the narrative voice of the article, then clearly it also belongs at caste, Indian caste system, and Brahman. (There, I think that has remained within the requirements of civility.) Can we agree to remove this? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

It should be removed. It is factually wrong as well. Iyers are one of the many divisions of Brahmins, and there is no clear heirarchy among them. Tintin Talk 01:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Namboothiris and Iyers : Sudhasudham

Eda Sudham: This is the Asudham resulting from contact with Tamil Brahmanans (Iyer, Pattar, Iyengar). Namboothiri women (and not men) are not permitted to eat if they become Eda Sudham. For doing Sandhyaavandanam, Namboothiris should take bath if they are polluted with Eda Sudham

http://www.namboothiri.com/articles/sudham.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rajeev dev7 (talk • contribs) 10 September 2006.

Cowardly neutrality?

Iyers are self centered and they do not teach their children their language tamil,Culture if he happens to be In US and they are proud that their children are unaware of their country unlike sindhis or Punjabis Gurathis who speak their language fluentlly inspite of staying in other countries . The example of Marutuius where Tamils have forgotten their Mother tongue but Biharis have retailed Bhojpuri.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.18.188.77 (talk • contribs) 1 March 2007.

This is completely false. I was born and raised in an Iyer family in the U.S., and I speak, read, and write fluent Tamil. In fact, when I was a child, my parents did not even allow me to speak anything other than Tamil at home. I think that the main reason this misperception occurs is because Iyers, and South Indians as a whole, are more likely to leave India than other groups. This speaks more for their level of education than their level of linguistic pride. And if Iyers do lack linguistic pride, I don't think anything better can be expected from any other community.71.244.147.177 03:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

"They believe in non-violence, and 'righteous' conduct in life, righteousness in their vocabulary having come to mean a self-centred way of life with cowardly neutrality where helpful, and caution against benefits going 'elsewhere' - tendencies which are possible because of the still-remaining spark of the intelligence component deriving from their hard-built ancestral DNA inheritance."

The above lines strike me as being POV. While it could be argued that many Iyers aren't exactly the outspoken or the politically active type, saying "Iyers lead a self-centred life and are cowards" is simply going too far. Even the next line ("still-remaining spark of the intelligence component deriving from their hard-built ancestral DNA inheritance") is one I find extremely bothersome. I propose either deleting the paragraph or simply changing it to "Iyers believe in non-violence and leading a righteous way of life." Adityan 02:26, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

The article is full of POV. Much anti-Iyer sentiment has been expressed here, as has much excessive Iyer ethno-egotism. Feel very free to work through the article NPOV-ing it all around: there is a request at WikiProject Ethnic groups to do just that. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Another hideous passage: "While 90 to 95 % of Brahmins may be said to make an outward show of pride of being Brahmins, especially when working with 'other' classes of people, or when seeking marital alliance, the same people brag about their being just nominal Brahmins and finding much of the Hindu philosophy and religious practices contrary to "modern science" which they pretend to have understood and extol." There is a lot of this stuff. This article is not a priority for me, but I would hope that it would be for someone. This article is becoming an embarrassment to Wikipedia. - Jmabel | Talk 06:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I have added the {{POV}} tag to this article. - Jmabel | Talk 07:02, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Editing and cleaning up of the Page.

I have removed many opionated statements, which either reflect an individual's opinion or are not entirely proven.In the sections where it is necessary to discuss the origin of Iyers, a brief idea has been given about a few traditional accounts as well as a mention of some controversies and speculations which exist regarding their origin.I have clearly specified that there is no clear Information about this.

I have removed lengthy discussions on this as well as all those theories which are highly speculative without any traditional account to properly back them up.If any one wants to add to this record they would have to quote "verbatim" from a tradional record and without indulging in any wild/unsubstantiated speculation.

I have also tried to edit ,he rest of the article to give an idea about the Iyer society without stating any thing unsubstantiated and describing the society as it exists today and as it existed in the past.

If anyone can reorganize the material without removing any Known or proven Information , it would be of great help.

Harishsubramanian 13:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Important section on Rituals and Ceremonies has beeen removed

An Important section Rituals and Ceremonies was removed. So older edit has been restored. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Harishsubramanian (talk • contribs) 5 March 2006.

Social and political issues

I moved the following from the article:

The above paragraph is far from truth. Iyers emphasise on ethics in all spheres of life: personal/professional which is a dying phenomenen in post independence India. Ethics/morality take backseat. Corruption and immorality take the lead. Iyers succeded not because of knowledge of vedas alone. It is because of sincerity in things they do which most other communities sadly lack. Successful communities are always persecuted around the world. Nobody likes successful people. Brahmins were successful in British India simply because British appreciated talented people and those who are sincere in work. Democracy in India has given space and breeding ground to mediocre people and groups because they have numeric majority and nothing else. Therefore, Brahmins can be pushed aside even if the country goes to dogs. Dravidians have ruled the state of Tamil Nadu for about sixty years after pushing out Brahmins. What have they achieved. NOTHING.

Mr. H. Venkatachalam

From [2] this edit. --Alf ^melmac 07:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I have moved the list of famous Iyers to a different article distinguised Iyers.Moreover the list is only bound to grow with time.

This article should provide mainly Information on the origin, culture and history of Iyers.

"An upshot of this atmosphere was an "anti-Brahmin" movement and the formation of the Justice party. Though formed on a principled high-ground, the movement soon led to a power struggle between the Brahmins and the other castes like the Mudaliars, Pillais and Chettiars. In the 1960s the Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (roughly translated as "Organisation for Progress of Dravidians") and its subgroups gained political ground on this platform forming state ministries, thereby wrenching control from the Indian National Congress party, where Iyers at that time were holding important party positions."

Can somebody give some more information about this?

Pramod 18:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC) User:Pramod.s

Iyers have an illusion of distinctiveness

I was very shocked at the tone of the Iyer wiki in Wikipedia. Many of the qualities which the editor describes as "Iyer" qualities are practised by a wide range of people. In terms of food, the sambar, kozhambu and rasam mentioned in the wiki constitute the staple food of South Indians of various castes and states. In terms of names, many Iyers have names like "Nagarajan" or "Sivakumar" which any member of the Tamil community (of which Iyers are a subset) may have.

Therefore, it's imperative that Iyers quit their illusion of distinctiveness and acknowledge the shared culture they have with other Tamilians (an 80-million-strong fraternity), South Indians (300 million) and Indians (one billion).

I'm sure Iyers would love to acknowledge their "shared" culture. The only problem is that the current political climate in Tamil Nadu (since the 1960's) is such that it completely downplays the role of Iyers (and brahmins in general) in Indian society. As long as the politicians of Tamil Nadu continue to persecute and harass Iyers, the Iyer community will refuse to acknowledge its shared heritage with the rest of the Tamil population.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.156.6.54 (talk • contribs) 27 April 2006.

Your comment is probably out of date.

• The reference to food only claims that Iyers eat X. No claim as to X being exclusively Iyer is made.

• I don't understand the point about names. As far as I can see the article makes no claim about certain names being exclusively Iyer.

• Please be a little more specific about what and where the offensive "Iyer Qualities" are.

• An encyclopedia is probably not the right place to debate the rights and wrongs of Iyer perceptions of their heritage/culture.

Pramod 18:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Issue with distinctiveness? I don't think ANY Iyer would ever want this article to have the retarded Aryan-origin bullshit on there. Yet, it is insisted by the rest of you. It is a struggle and chore to convince you guys that we are even Tamil, and then you turn on us and say we think we are distinct? The Aryan Invasion Theory ITSELF is not at ALL proven to be true. Not at all - as a matter of fact, more and more evidence creeps up saying it may not be ture. In addition to inter-caste fluidity that used to exist, and the fact that if Brahmins are of Indo-Aryan background then so must ALL upper caste Tamils (including Mudaliars, Chettiars, etc.), I think that section is by far the most unecessary and hollow. It should be mentioned that it plays a big role in the political arena in Tamil Nadu - but nothing beyond that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.252.71.146 (talk) 21:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, first of all, this is NOT an article WRITTEN BY IYERS for the SAKE OF IYERS. The Aryan Invasion Theory is yet to be proved but then, it is a theory of significant importance and that which requires mention. Mudaliars and Chettiars are not targetted by the Dravidian brigade as "Aryans". Hence it is not a significant political issue concerning them. Well, I only think it to be appropriate to mention ALL THEORIES which have substantial following and claims. Anything, staunchly pro- or anti- Brahmin could be regarded as POV-Ravichandar 04:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Identity and origins

Could someone who knows this topic better than me take a look at the section Iyer#Identity and origins? At the very least, the first paragraph is a poor transition out of the intro. - Jmabel | Talk 20:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

This remains the case; I am referring to the passage that begins "They are smarthas and follow Adi Shankara's teachings…" - Jmabel | Talk 22:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Population

This used to say (without citation) that there are 2,000,000 Iyers as of 2004, 3% of the Tamil population. Now it says (without citation) that there are 4,000,000 Iyers as of 2004, 3% of the Tamil population. Can someone please sort this out (and provide citation)? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 22:39, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Whether Population figure is correct? Population figure is indicated as 40,00,000 and 3% of Tamilnadu population. Tamilnadu population as per 2001 census is nearly 6,00,00,000 so 3% of Tamilnadu population is around 18,00,000. I found from Google search that Brahmin population in Tamilnadu(Iyers+Iyengars+Gurukkal) as per 1931 census is 3.12%. So I suspect current Iyer population cannot be more than 20,00,000. Ravi

For those who do not format numbers i this uniquely Indian way: that can be read as "Population figure is indicated as 4,000,000 and 3% of Tamilnadu population. Tamilnadu population as per 2001 census is nearly 60,000,000 so 3% of Tamilnadu population is around 1,800,000. I found from Google search that Brahmin population in Tamilnadu(Iyers+Iyengars+Gurukkal) as per 1931 census is 3.12%. So I suspect current Iyer population cannot be more than 2,000,000." I tend to agree, but "from a Google search" is not exactly citation: another site can be just as wrong as we can! Again, does someone have a citation from a reliable source? - Jmabel | Talk 03:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Jmabel, I think the problem is that information on caste was not collected by the Indian census after 1931. So I don't think there are any reliable current percentage figures. I don't think the 3% statement is even useful in this article, as it is so hopelessly outdated and likely to give an incorrect view of a community that has seen a lot of emigration abroad in recent years.Adityan 20:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Dubious recent edits

These edits look to me to be not too well written, uniformly uncited, and I suspect some of it is factually wrong. I'm not expert on the topic, so I'm staying out of it beyond raising the flag. Would someone knowledgable please review these. - Jmabel | Talk 05:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

In the list of PATRIOTS from amongst the iyer community, the name or Mani Iyer who made an attempt on the life of Sir C P Ramaswamy Iyer is not included. That act was the main reason for the Diwan's backtracking from his ealier position of travancore as an independent nation SREE —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sreefern (talk • contribs) 15 September 2006.

This article still needs a going over by someone knowledgable and scholarly. For example, I cannot even parse the following: "Iyers have many subsects among them, such as Vadama, Brihatcharanam, Vathima, and Ashtasahasram, sholiyar or chozhiars." Are the last two additional sects? Is there a reason they are grouped with Ashtasahasram after the "and"? Is there a reason they are lowercase? There is a lot of this sort of thing in the article. Unparsable sentences greatly reduce the usefulness of an encyclopedia article. - Jmabel | Talk 06:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Woah, how long has this been at the top of the article? "Like the Jews, they are a persecuted community and they are distinguished as the community on whose rabid hatred, the polity of the modern south Indian state of Tamil Nadu is founded" Whether or not there is truth to this statement, that's not something that can be in the first paragraph! Adityan 20:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure this is recent. I've given up on doing anything much here except raising flags. Clearly, no responsible person has taken responsibility for this article, which gets periodic inundations from rabidly anti-Iyer people, but also from people who seem to consider the Iyers the annointed of the gods. - Jmabel | Talk 07:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Deleted a criticism from Iyer

I've deleted a criticism from Iyer as the comment was not sourced. Comments regarding Iyers eating non veg food is not sourced. So, I've deleted the same.BalanceRestored 07:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The deletion is permitted under Wikipedia:Verifiability, which says: "Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources. Editors adding or restoring material that has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, or quotations, must provide a reliable published source, or the material may be removed." Alternatives to immediate deletion include moving the challenged unsourced material to the talk page for discussion, or placing a fact tag on the material and leaving it in the article so other editors may try to find a reference. Buddhipriya 07:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Pandi Iyers

I have added the history of the Tamil Brahmins who migrated from Thirunelveli and Ramnad district to Kerala. This history is the history of Tamil Brahmin families. About the personages mentioned, Dewan V.S. Subramania Iyer is a distant relation. I know the grand son of dewan Sankarasubbier. Sankaranaryana Ayyan the Sarvadhikar of Cochin was the great grandfather of my wife.

Agsin I feel that the tirade against Malyalees should be removed as it promotes linguistic differences. Political agitations for political supremacy should not form the basis for opinions about a community. Before 1956 Palakkad was in Madras Presidency of British India. The Pandi Iyers were subjects of the princely states of Travancore and Cochin.

The Britishers wanted that the Dewan, Chief Justice, and other high administrative posts should be held by persons loyal to them. The locals including the Tamil Brahmins were loyal to the King. There was a lot of resentment even among the Tamil Brahmins when people like C.P. Ramaswamy Iyer from Madras was appointed Diwan of Travancore. These people preferred to bring their friends and acquaintances from British India. We never liked it.

I have deleted the concerned paragraphs.

The migrants to any place are expected to adapt the local language and be part of the local culture. But they can always and should retain their own linguistic tradition and culture.

From one whose family has not stayed in the same place for more than one generation.

Swadesho Bhuvanathrayam

Sankarrukku 10:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Clean up of Page

Could someone tell me how this page can be cleaned up. I am willing to put in some effort.

Thanks. --Sankarrukku 07:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of edits

I had added some names to the list of Distinguished Iyers and added a note in the talk page. But my entire edits including the note has been undone without any note.

I do not know whether this note may be undone.

May be this is a common practice. I am new here. You start wondering whether it is worthwhile putting in an effort.

Thanks. --Sankarrukku 05:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Migration to Bengal

This addition is based on historical sources and other articles. I will add the references to published books and articles later. Thanks --Sankarrukku 06:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Added Sivacharya or Gurukkal.

You can visit any Siva/Amman temple in Tamil Nadu and verify this. This sect was included earlier. It was removed during one of the revisions.

Yathum Oore Yavarum Kelir

--Sankarrukku 16:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Origins

I have made some changes in the origins. I have made the change from settled to residing and then to natives of Tamil Nadu. The issue of migration from North India and and Aryan & Dravidian was discussed earlier. Though many people including Brahmins would like to believe this theory there is no shred of Archeological/Historical evidence for this theory. It is not for want of efforts.

There are scholarly theories about how the Aryan Hindus original residence was in the Arctic. And how the Pallava dynasty originated in Iran. See Pallava. Let us leave it to anthropologists/historians/politicians.

This is for Iyer Brahmins as a whole and we have been in Tamil Nadu since time immemorial.

I do agree that some sub castes do believe that they have migrated from North India. That should go in the page about the sub caste and not the community page.

This is an article about a community. It is about the community and not about racial/regional/linguistic theories. It is also not about political developments in Tamil Nadu which are covered by Anti brahminism and Social and political issues.

--Sankarrukku 09:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Point No 1: Many Iyer groups such as Vadama(who form the majority), Sozhiyar, etc. are believed to be of outside origin. Of course, the groups which are of outside origin are believed to form the majority.

Point No.2: True, there are scholarly theories that the Pallava dynasty originated in Iran. This is yet to be established beyond doubt. However, this does not prevent one from including these theories in a Wikipedia article. The Aryan Invasion Theory has not yet been PROVED WITH SUFFICENT EVIDENCE, however, arguments against the theory arent devoid of fault either. It is a controversial issue which is being researched upon. Yet, however, we cannot neglect the views of a vast section of the populace who believe in the Aryan Invasion Theory. Wikipedia supports a neutral point of view and should not reflect Brahmin chauvinistic or Anti-Brahministic views.

Point No.3: A vast section of anthropologists/historians/politicians/common people believe that South Indian Brahmnins (Tamil Brahmins, esp.) are of outside origin and the theory requires mention. BESIDES, IT WAS A REFERENCED STATEMENT WITH A LINK TO A SCHOLARLY ARTICLE FROM AN UNBIASED SOURCE. The statement might have required altercation. However, it is improper to remove the information, especially, since it was a referenced one.Regards.-Ravichandar84 23:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I had replied all these in my personal page. I am reproducing it below.

Hullo sir, how do u do? this is with regard to 'Iyers' Wikipedia article. I've just included a reference to the general belief that Iyers migrated to the south from other parts of India. I hope you dont mind. Besides, I also feel that Migrations to Tamil Nadu are more of a legendary character and might be included in 'Origins' rather than 'Migrations'.Also, I dont think references to Mulukanadu are relevant to 'Migrations to Tamil Nadu'.True, a number of Mulukanadu Brahmins have migrated to Tamil Nadu from time to time and are designated as 'Iyers' but then, Mulukanadu Brahmins of Andhra Pradesh like V.V.S.Laxman,etc. are also referred to as Iyers. See List of Iyers.Regards :-) -Ravichandar84 03:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately this is only a belief. Many Tamil Brahmins would like to believe this as it gives them a common root with the so called Aryans of North India. Such claims are made by Namboothiris also. I have been searching for some clue or even collective memory about this migration for more than a decade with no success.

The article in Chennai on line is not an authority. This article talks about Gurukkal being the older brahmins. Gurukkals are followers of Saiva Siddhanta which originated in Kashmir in first century B.C. Most of the non-Brahmin forward castes in Tamil Nadu follow Saiva Siddhanta. They can also legitimately claim Kashmiri origin.

Articles in popular especially on line journals and web sites are seldom based on any research. Having evaluated thousands of sites as editor in ODP I am aware of this. For example the web site Kerala Iyers.com has completley ignored the Pandi Iyers.

Please revert to what I had stated. That avoids the inter caste/racial conflicts. Thanks.

About migrations it is a tricky problem. The Tamil Brahmins from Thirunelveli migrated to Nanjil Nadu (present Knayakumari district). When they came in it was Venadu which later became Travancore. Now it is part of Tamil Nadu. So are they migrants? Again how can you migrate to Kerala in 1600 when Kerala was formed only in 1956.

However the gentlemen has made the changes. --Sankarrukku 10:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I respect your opinions on this issue. But then, I think the views and opinions of a vast section of the Tamil population (including a number of scholars and historians) are worthy of mention. It is a significant theory, nevertheless, and can never be omitted if we are to provide an unbiased article.

About migrations it is a tricky problem. The Tamil Brahmins from Thirunelveli migrated to Nanjil Nadu (present Knayakumari district). When they came in it was Venadu which later became Travancore. Now it is part of Tamil Nadu. So are they migrants? Again how can you migrate to Kerala in 1600 when Kerala was formed only in 1956.

I am not the one who included these lines. I admit that I am not a scholar on the history of Kerala Iyers. I just wikified a set of existing points and classed them under a section.

Please revert to what I had stated. That avoids the inter caste/racial conflicts.

I am not here either to organize or prevent caste/racial conflicts. The Wikipedia article shall be based on facts and not in order to please any community or ethnic group. Existing theories and opinions, nevertheless, cannot be omitted.Thanks - Ravichandar84 15:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I had replied all these in my personal page. I am reproducing it below.

I am sorry to say this. But I didnt notice your reply in "your discussion page". On the contrary, I expected a reply in mine. Once again, I am sorry -Ravichandar84 15:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I feel that the following paragraph in 'Origins' section is highly appropriate describing both theories.

The origin of Iyers,like other South-Indian Brahmin communities, is shrouded in mystery. There have been evidences of Brahmin presence in the southern states even prior to the Sangam Age. However, it is generally believed that they were few in number and that they comprised mostly of priests who ministered in temples known as "Gurukkals". Large scale migrations are believed to have occurred between 200 and 1600 AD and most Iyers are believed to have descended from these migrants.[2][3][4]. However, this theory has come under attack, in recent times, from historians and anthropologists who question the validity of this theory due to lack of evidence[5].

Regards. -Ravichandar84 15:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Changes

I dont think 'Events and Festivals' section is needed. Navrathri, Deepavali,etc. are festivals common to all Hindu people and not to Iyers alone. 'Iyers Today' might require a rewrite. Though, Iyers were one of the first communities in India to acquire Government jobs in British India through use of western education it is not known whether they were the first people to be Westernized in culture. I dont think the table with words in Tamil and corresponding words in 'Iyer Bashai' are needed. It simply adds to the length of the page. On the contrary, detailed information on 'Iyer Bashai' is available at Braahmik or Brahmin Tamil. Thanks - Ravichandar84 01:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Social and political issues and Accusations of Casteism and Racism

The anti Brahmin movement was directed against all Brahmins in Tamil Nadu. Accusations of Casteism and Racism have been made against all Brahmins. Whatever is written here applies to all Tamil Brahmins. Why should we have it under Iyers? The recent act of the T.N .Government affects all Brahmin priests. When the actions of the political parties are directed against the entire Brahmin community including Iyengars, there is no reason for the Iyer community alone to bear the cross. The fight against Brahminism started with Sakya Muni Buddha. All reformist movements in Hinduism have been directed against the ritualistic religion of the Brahmins. There was a Movement under Mahatma Phule in Maharashtra.

--Sankarrukku 03:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Right!! But Tamil Brahmins were the ones who were affected the most. And you dont find a Wikipedia page named 'Tamil Brahmins.'Besides all Tamil Brahmins, both Iyers and Iyengars are generally called 'Iyers', the main rason being that Iyers form almost three-fourths of the total Tamil Brahmin population. Content in Iyer marriages and Traditional Iyer Ethics too would seem unnecessary as most of these rituals are common to all Hindus not Iyers alone. If at all you include such a section in Iyengars page, I would very much appreciate it -Ravichandar84 08:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You are continuing some of the age old myths generated by the anti-brahmin movement.

Myth: Since ancient times, Iyers, as members of the privileged priestly class, exercised a near-complete domination over educational,religious and literary institutions in the Tamil country.

Fact: Most of the temples in Tamil Nadu were controlled by the different Adheenams like Thiruvvuduthurai, Dhatmapuram and others. The Brahmin priests in these temples had a very low status.

Most of the educational institutions were under the British or the Jesuits. Way back in the early 1800 the East India Company gave a written assurance in the British Parliament that Brahmins would not be given preference in any educational institutions.

Accusations of Casteism and Racism: This has been made against all the Brahmins. Take the case of Namboodiri

The caste system enforced by Namboothiris in Kerala was one of the most rigid in whole India. The rules of untouchability across various levels of castes,and sub castes also. They considered all other castes as shudra,and they practiced untouchabilty and "aiyitham" with their own lower subsects and with Tamil,konkani and other "paradesi "brahmins and their own blood related nair cousins. the regulation on the language used, the regulations on the dress, the regulations on the place of dwelling and also on the construction of the houses were either extreme form of caste rules or unheard of in other parts of India.

Vivekananda, a Hindu monk, famously declared Kerala "a lunatic asylum of castes" after observing the strange caste practices in the society.

Instead of writing such factual statements the Iyers have gone out of the way to write and defend statements of politicians. Sad.

Wilkipedia is not the place to run political campaigns. These two sections are purely political in nature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sankarrukku (talk • contribs) 13:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

--Sankarrukku 12:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC).

Most of the educational institutions were under the British or the Jesuits. Way back in the early 1800 the East India Company gave a written assurance in the British Parliament that Brahmins would not be given preference in any educational institutions.

Right!!! I request you to add this point and give proper references. You can see for yourself the section on racism and casteism and verify the references that have been added. Well, as for the statement made on namboohtirs, I request you to add the same to the article on Namboothris. Thanks -Ravichandar84 14:14, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Edits made from 122.163.225.227

Edits made from 122.163.225.227 have been reverted. The following is the text added by the anonymous individual.

"If Aryan theory hold true,how can you explain their south indian food preparation, language (tamil). 
 + They do not prepare dal or other food varieties like the North Indian Aryans do etc.how can a community completely forget their food preparation style ,clothing style,language etc when they migrated down south."

Firstly, let me tell you that no one has come to any conclusion whether it is a myth or a fact. It is a "theory" and I have mentioned so in the page. You are invited to give points against the Aryan Invasion Theory while quoting your sources. However, we do not require your viewpoint. Wikipedia articles are based on facts, not opinions. If at all you wish to explain your viewpoint you may do so here, in the talk page and not in the article itself. Thanks! - Ravichandar84 12:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

When there is no anthropological/historical or any other evidence, it should be called myth. Quoting articles by half baked journalists on the web does not prove anything.

Wikipedia articles are based on facts, not opinions.

Yes. But this entire article seems to be based on one individual's opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sankarrukku (talk • contribs) 12:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It was stated

However, we do not require your viewpoint.

.

We do not require your opinion either. When did you become Wikipedia? You have been only deleting other's contributions or modifying them to reflect your own opinion. You have been representing your own theories as facts. I would request the administrators to go through the edits and decide whether you are really contributing anything positive.

--Sankarrukku 23:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

When writing about "Iyers in Kerala" or "Tamils in Kerala", please note: The words like "Pattar" and "Pandi" are ethnic slurs in Kerala today. Let's avoid the use of such "controversial terms" here.

1) "Pandi Iyers"- Pandya kingdom was an ancient kingdom. True. However, in today's world, the word "Pandi" has become a term used by many ethnic Malayalees to refer to all Tamilians who resent it (including the Tamil brahmins- Iyers- living in Kerala) Many resent the word because it is used derogatorily by some people in the contemporary Kerala society. In modern Malayalam slangs, the words mean- primitive, dirty, uncivilized people etc. Often, the use of words such as "Pattar" and "pandi" in some Malayalam movies and television serials invites protests from Tamil brahmin community in general. Both the words are potentially offensive today. Hence, I humbly express my opinion that it will be great if not used "controversial words" to refer to a community in the encyclopedia. For example, does any one living in the southern states of India likes to be addressed as "Madrasi"?. No. Similarly, terms like "Pandi Iyers" and "Yankee Americans" make minds painful. Hence, let's say good bye to such ethnic slurs. Let's use "Iyers in Travancore-Cochin region" or "Iyers in Travancore and Cochin regions", instead of "Pandi Iyers".

2)"Pattar"- It is also a derogatory term used by many ethnic Malayalees to refer to Tamil brahmins(Iyers), who resent it. Many resent the word because it is used derogatorily by some people. It is also an ethnic slur like "Pandi", "Madrasi", "Yankee", "Nigger" etc.

3)"Kerala Iyers"- All Iyers living in Kerala, whether in Palakkad district or in the southern districts, prefer to be known as "Iyers", however, geographically they live in Kerala, hence, it will not be wrong to use the word- "Kerala Iyers". However, they are not the traditional 'Kerala brahmins'. It is a misnomer since true Kerala brahmins are Namboothiris. In fact, Iyers are not even allowed to officiate as priests in Kerala's temples even today. In the past, the true Kerala brahmins(Namboothiris) even practiced untouchability towards Tamil brahmins(Iyers)

4) Clarification(Palakkad Iyers section)- "Till the present generation even marriages between these communities(Palakkad Iyers and so-called Pandi Iyers) were not common"- The true reason is- most Iyers migrated to Palakkad district from Tanjavur(Tamil Nadu) after accepting an invitation from the king(Raja) of Palakkad belong to the 'brahacharanam' sub-sect of Iyers, while, most Iyers in south Kerala belong to Vadama sub-sect, who migrated from Thirunelveli district. However, there were other sub-sects also among the migrants, but, the majority in these two different regions belonged to two different sub-sects. And marriages between the two group of Iyers, were common, if the bride and bridegroom belonged to the same sub-sect.(Vadama, Brahacharanam, etc..)However, Iyers in the south Kerala often preferred marriage proposals within the region and neighbouring districts of Tamil nadu than Palakkad, a 'distant land' then.(No train, buses like today...and...different sub-sects...their numbers...etc..etc..just guess the reasons)

P.S.- I am an Iyer. My great grandmother was born and brought up in Palakkad. Her husband belonged to a place presently in southern Tamil Nadu. And many family members of some of my ancestors had been high ranking govt officials in the historic Travancore Kingdom. I have never heard any word like "Pandi Iyer", Palakkad Iyer", "Kerala Iyer", "Tamil nadu Iyer' etc..etc..from my family and relatives. I have many relatives in different Indian states like Kerala(in many districts including Palakkad), Tamil nadu(in many districts), Maharashtra and Karnataka. The common things which bring all the Tamil brahmins together are Tamil language(different brahmin dialects), surname(Iyer), Smarta religious traditions and vegetarianism. To be frank, we are happy about the unity and diversity flourishing among us as a pan-Indian Tamil community. It may not be an exaggeration to say that Tamil brahmins are the first pan-Indian Hindu community living in the different states of India. Iyers, who are truly polyglots, can be a symbol of national integration at a time when politicians of the post-1956 era, from the 'linguistically created' Indian 'states', with a dangerously monolingual background, are creating a lot of hatred in local people's mind in the name of river water sharing disputes and dam disputes such as "Kaveri issue" and Mullaiperiyar issue"  :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sathyasaagar (talk • contribs) 11:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Iyer/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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== GA Review == GA review (see here for criteria) It is reasonably well written: Pass It is factually accurate and verifiable: Pass looks fine it seems. It is broad in its coverage: Pass It follows the neutral point of view policy: Pass It is stable: Pass That's good now too. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate: Pass Overall: Pass well done. Congratulations-->>>Kensplanet (talk) Perpetual problem article: lots of anti-Iyer vandalism, but also lots of Iyer ego. It would be great if someone evenhanded would take some responsibility for this article on a continuing basis. - Jmabel 07:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC) I have taken the responsibility of maintaining this article :-) -Ravichandar84 12:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC) This article is quite comprehensive, and the writing style is quite good for the parts that I read. There are no where near enough in-text references for various facts, and stipulations - this needs to be addressed. On another minor note, the image of D.K.Pattammal needs to be moved down to the cultural section - it's one section too high. Please let me know when these areas have been addressed - the referencing is the most important area to address for now. Ncmvocalist 04:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC) As for your point about the lack of adequate references, let me make it clear that references have been added by me or by other people who edited the article wherever necessary. References and citations havent been provided only for subsections wherein a detailed description of the section is available in a different Wikipedia article or in an external link.A detailed examination of the cases is available below. For references with regard to the section Migration to West Bengal are available in Vaidika Brahmins link provided References with regard to the section Iyer Marriage and Traditional Iyer Ethics are available in the reference link prvided in the section Details and references with regard to Language of Iyers is available in Brahmin Tamil- Ravichandar84 07:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC) This article suffers from political overtones. The topics Social and political issues and Accusations of Casteism and Racism are purely political. The references are to articles which are basically anti-Brhmin and not directed specifically against Iyers. Such articles do not exist in the pages of other communities. Please see Iyengar. There is only a small article there. Namboodiri. Most of the articles referred to are about Brahmins in general. I do not understand why this article should act as a mouthpiece for all the anti-Brahmin articles. These articles should be under anti Brahminism. This article is being used for countering the arguments of the anti-Brahmin articles. The person who is acting as the arbitrator of this article seems to think that Wikipedia is the place to counter political propaganda. Fortunately for Wikipedia all the contributors do not use it as a tool for political propaganda. --Sankarrukku 06:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC) I guess Sankarrukku is not aware of the standards required for writing a Wikipedia article. Iyengar article needs to be looked into, but I cannot spoend my time on both these articles. I have given adequate references and had made a neutral coverage. The anti-Brahmin movement is more pronunced in Tamil Nadu and references to the origin of the anti-Brahmin movement are worth a mention. Besides I have given adequate references both pro- and anti- Brahmin. I urge the above user to stop replacing "Aryann Invasion Theory" with "Aryan Invasion Myth" and similar changes.Thanks!-Ravichandar84 07:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC) If all the communities start giving prominence to the views of others about that community and their counter arguments there will be no end to this. I do not find any such references to anti-semitism articles in Judaism Talking about standard of Wikipedia and so called neutrality does not justify a collection of anti-brahmin articles which should normally belong to the Anti-Brahminism article. In fact there is very little about anti brahminism in Tamil Nadu there. These two sections should be carried over to Anti-Brahminism. To quote an example: The Coming of Aryans and Brahmins into Kerala by Dr.Zacharias Thondy. What is the relevance of this to Tamil Iyers. If the Iyers want to claim Aryan origin why should the section be named Aryan Invasion. Whether the Aryans invaded India is not relevant to the theory of Aryan origin. --Sankarrukku 08:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC) Judaism isnt a race but a religion. You will find mention of Anti-Semitism in the Wikipedia article on Jews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews#Persecution I know very well about the extent of Anti-Brahminism which is prevailing in Tamil Nadu. Right from online social networking communities to daily life, there have been numerous instances of anti-Brahmin reactions which I have experienced or heard of.You arent doing any good to society by providing articles which omit such important issues concerning Iyers. A good quality Wikipedia article must have extensive coverage and should be absolutely neutral. The Aryan Invasion might have occured; it might have not; but then, there have been innumerable historians, archaeologists and anthropogists who have given theories of Aryan migration; moreover, the fact that the anti-Brahmin cadres of the Self-Respect Movement have decided to call themselves the "Dravidar Kazhagam" (Dravidian Party) as opposed to Brahmins whom they regard as Aryans is reason enough to make a mention of the Aryan Invasion Theory and Dravidian politics. As for the reference link you mentioned, the article on the book 'The Coming of Aryans and Brahmins into Kerala' by Dr.Zacharias Thondy is about the Brahmins of Kerala and about the dealings Namboothris have with non-Malayali Brahmins (of which Iyers form a substantial portion) whom they regard as outsiders.It is not one of the major references for the article but then it is ONE OF THE REFERENCES. -Ravichandar84 14:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC) I was only pointing out that none of the Jewish community pages have a collection of such anti Jewish articles. Please go ahead and collect all the anti Brahmin articles and publish them. With friends like you the community does not need enemies. Having been associated with many organizations where neutrality is a pre-requisite your definition of neutrality is funny to say the least. I have no intention of contributing to this page further. --Sankarrukku 00:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC) I had made 280+ edits in this article over the past month, spending day and night to rewrite entire sections and raising it from a decrepid state to one of high quality. I found it ridden with propaganda nonsense(both Brahministic and anti-Brahministic) and cleaned it all to remove any hint of bias. It is not in right spirit that you should go about changing "Aryan theory" to "Aryan myth" or blanking out whole sections to represent your opinions. - Ravichandar84 12:33, 11 October 2007 (UTC) FYI, www.tamilnation.org (from which I've selected most of my reference links related to politics) is a perfectly unbiased source which contains articles by writers like Francois Gautier as well as Gail Omvedt. By the way, let the assessors decide whether this article is biased or not. Thanks -Ravichandar84 00:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 18:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 20:33, 3 May 2016 (UTC)