Talk:Isshin-ryū

Older discussions

I redirected the article Ishin Ryu to here as it appeared to be a simple alternate spelling. That page was very basic and appeared to contain no additional information that wasn't already present here. Roachmeister 14:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Are the "Chart One and Two" "katas" the same as Pinans One and Two (from Dale Jenkins)? Not all IsshinRyu styles do these. And I don't think they belong in with the main kata list as they are more beginners exercises, to get people ready for the ideas of kata. Ms ArtGeek 21:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

From everything I have read of the history of Isshinryu Tatsuo Shimabuku included Chart I and II at the beginning of every class. As far as the Pinans, Mr. Shimabuku created Chart I and II as a prearranged drill set. There is no group bunkai. An example would be 1st in Chart I, right foot forward right hand straight punch. 2nd right foot forward right hand uppercut. Each one is executed 10 times. 15 exercises in each group, each exercises done 10 times (5 for each side under IIKA and USIKA). He did also teach the Pinans from what I have read of the Arsenio J. Advincula lineage, but I have not seen them taught under the Harold Long lineage (Under which I am). Because I see Chart I and II as a prearranged karate exercises, I call them a Kata in the full since of the term. Also in my belt tests they have been referred to as a Kata. So as a answer taking the long way around they are sorta Katas. I will update the article to reflect their importance as a creation of Mr. Shimabuku's, while not calling them a Kata. Hope it works. Nuaetius 20:55, 15 July 2006

Any chance of mentioning Jenkins more?

As well as the 15 basics and a backround on the patch? It is so important. And what of the leader in Okinawa?

@Nuaetius, you are almost spot on. I study IsshinRyu from a direct student of Tatsuo Shimabuku and we do not use "pinans" or anything of the sort. We perform 15 striking and block/strike/parry basics followed by 13 lower body basics (kicking, push kick, etc) . We then do kensui (pushup on the first two knuckles) followed by breathing exercises. Kata begins with Seisan at the 9th Kyu level. We do not refer to the basics as anything other than that.

Removal of political Isshinryu Political maneuvering

In the recent entry of the IKA added by Sara07 there was a start of the typical political banter that goes on in our form. I am a member of the USIKA and could go on for hours arguing the legitimacy of other 10th Dan leaders of other organizations, but I think that it is completely inappropriate in a encyclopedia to recognize anyone as "Dr. Ken Pittaway, 9th Dan grandmaster of the snap-kick (with the late Master Doug Noxon, sensei of many world-class masters including Willie Adams 9th Dan, past president of AOKA, Norbert Donnelly, 7th Dan, originator of isshinryu.com - the world's only online dojo, Dr. Bill Pogue, 8th Dan- two-time USKA World Champion)". Let's try not to announce our organization's leaders as "the grand master of the snap-kick" here.

The u in ryu

I think a plain u is better here than a ū here and in the other similar articles. JJL 03:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Why? LordAmeth 09:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

It's easier to type and is the more common English rendering. Compare, for example, the What links here for Isshin-ryū and the What links here for Isshin-ryu. Almost all links for the former are redirected from the latter. Most people editing the site use Isshin-ryu. It's the same for Uechi Ryu. That's also how it generally appears in most martial arts magazines, which are edited, and on the web. People disagree about Uechi Ryu vs. Uechi-ryu but are quite consistent on this point. Additionally, I don't see any gain from using the ū. I'd much prefer to see these changed back to the way people editing this site generally render the names. JJL 14:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I realize that these styles have become heavily Americanized, and that many people studying karate do not also dabble in other elements of Japanese culture. But karate is still originally an Okinawan/Japanese practice, and 流 (ryū) is still a Japanese word. Do you wear the kanji on your gi? I know my friends who do Uechi do. "ryu" is not a word, plain and simple. ryū is. LordAmeth 23:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Neither of them are words in English...and this is the English language Wikipedia. I think the What links here for the various x-ryu pages--and, indeed, their original titles--show what most people do with such diacritical marks in typed English, where they are not easily made. But even in martial arts magazines--excepting possibly Classical Fighting Arts--it's almost always ryu (and Ryukyu, not Ryūkyū). Most people will have difficulty even making such a mark on their computers--I think this pedantry is misplaced here. It makes the site less useful rather than more useful. Those editing pages involving the martial arts and, based on a quick search, have already decided by "voting with their fingers"--diacriticals are to be avoided in such cases. Are there pitch accents on words like Kung Fu on the site?JJL 01:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

In accordance with Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(Japan-related_articles)#Article_titles, I am suggesting that ryu, like Tokyo, is standard (at least within the martial arts community). Again, it's common in print such as Black Belt Magazine. A search on ryu in Google News seems to back this up. JJL 01:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thumb Placement

The "Features" section of the article describes thumb placement on an Isshin-Ryu punch as being on "top" of the fist, which I can only assume means resting on the fingers, between the first and second knuckles (Counting from the back of the palm outwards). However, I've never even heard of an Isshin-Ryu punch being delivered in such a way, the thumb is supposed to be on the "side" of the fist, next to the fingers (Not on them) and between the second and third knuckles (Againg counting from the palm outwards). I'm by no means a combat expert, but even just making a fist the way the article says is uncomfortable (If I draw the thumb back) or extremely exposing, the thumb sticks right out in front. Hitting a punching bag that way could break the thumb, and who knows what else. What's the source for that description? JBK405 03:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• Well, the Isshinryu punch is executed vertically, so the thumb indeed rests on "top" of the fist. If the punch were a corkscrew punch, what you say would make sense, but given the stress Isshinryu gives on the vertical punch... 71.192.100.41 20:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Look at the Isshin-Ryu patch pictured on the page. Note that it is in the shape of a fist, as seen head on, and the thumb is resting on top of the index finger (NOT sticking out in front, on top). Thumb on top is the proper placement for an Isshin-Ryu fist. Mike M (talk) 20:28, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

factions

It stands that some serious detail is missing from how much Isshinryu is splintered into different groups and reasonings, as well as relevant differences in teaching.RCHM 00:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

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to do: Document the Splintering of Isshin-Ryu

"After the death of Shimabuku in 1975, many variations of Isshin-ryū were formed." This needs a paragraph in the body explaining it. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 12:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

As part of the AFD for Isshin-ryū Hall of Fame, I've tried to wade through the splintering of Isshin-ryu. http://www.isshin-ryu.com/isshinryu_karate.htm has a good history of splintering:

• In 1961, Tatsuo Shimabuku, Harold Mitchum, Steve Armstrong formed the American-Okinawan Karate Association (AOKA). Mitchum was the first AOKA president and Steve Armstrong and Ralph Bove were association officers. Harold Long was later appointed as the U.S. representative of the AOKA.

• In 1967, at Shimabuku's request, son-in-law Angi Uezu spent a year teaching at dojos in New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Tennessee.

• In August 1974, Kichiro Shimabuku, Tatsuo Shimabuku's eldest son, formed the Isshinryu World Karate Association (IWKA).

• In December 1974, Harold Long traveled to Okinawa to seek Tatsuo Shimabuku's permission to create the International Isshinryu Karate Association (IIKA).

• In May 30, 1975, Tatsuo Shimabuku passed away. Kichiro Shimabuku administered the IWKA from Okinawa, Steve Armstrong continued the operation of the American-Okinawan Karate Association (AOKA), and Harold Long continued the work of the IIKA in Tennessee.

• In March 1977, Harold Mitchum & others formed the United Isshinryu Karate Association (UIKA).

• In 1989, Angi Uezu formed the Okinawa Isshinryu Karate and Kobudo Association (OIKKA).

• In 1994, Toby Cooling and J.C. Burris, promoted to 9th Dan by Harold Long and Don Nagle, formed the United Isshinryu Council (UIC).

• The UIC is comprised of the IIKA, UIKF, the Order of Isshinryu (OI), and the Tatsuo-Kan Society (TKS).

In stumbling through the web sites, I did not notice any organization with more that 10 dojos. Not every organization gave information about their size. The organizations seem to cover small geographical areas.

On the notability of Isshin-Ryu Hall of Fame (IHOF), from http://www.isshinryu.nxs.net/boardof.htm, the Board of Directors of IOHF has members from IIKA, Okinawan Karate Union OKU, AOKA, TKS.

On these facts, I would conclude the the Hall of Fame does notable represent Isshin-Ryu. jmcw (talk) 20:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 14:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Concerning the article vertical punch, there are no references, links, sections, etc. The article is orphaned and appears to cover material already covered in Isshin-ryū. Noxia (talk) 00:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The existing vertical punch is talking about isshin-ryu exlusively, not about the vertical punch employed in so many martial arts (tate-tsuki (立て突き) in karate, hung fa yi in wing-chun), etc. However, if we could write about other styles, it would be a useful article on its own right. --Cubbi (talk) 15:16, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Meaning of Kotekitai

JWPce translates kotekitai (こてきたい) as "drum fife band" (鼓笛隊). Same result from an on-line dictionary[1]. Could someone with Japanese language skill say something here? jmcw (talk) 08:38, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I currently study Isshin-ryu from a 9th Dan who studied directly from Tatsuo Shimabuku. We perform the 5 Kotekitai exercises nightly. I'm taught that it translates to "Forearm Strength Body" As "Kotek" is the forearm from the wrist to the elbow. Ki is obviously strength and Ti is body. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.173.149.187 (talk) 22:33, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Isshin-ryu translation

If I'm not mistaken the Isshin-ryu translation at the start of main article is incorrect, it should read "whole-heart way" or "one-heart way"

Do you have a reference (a book maybe)? It would improve the article. jmcw (talk) 12:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

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Lineage

Cleaned up some of the dates and history based on published articles. One of them is a critical article. If anyone disagrees with the time lines investigated in the article, please DO rebut it--I have no "dog in the fight." Thus: "While Classical Fighting Arts says he had his horse gelded in Naha, in 1943, CNN interviewed him gelding the horse in Burbank, behind the Dennys, 1942." Something like that.

The article also recapitulates the issues with splits, grading, and all of that which I did not include. Though it does not mention a "Grand Master of the Snap Kick!" TheDoctorX (talk) 19:54, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

[Edited to correct his own horrible spelling.--Ed.]

The section on Tatsuo Shimabuko now seems to rely almost exclusively on a spurious secondary source--an old article from Classical Fighting Arts. This article was immediately repudiated by its own quoted authority, Andy Sloane, who said the editor refused to acknowledge extensive documentation and published his own, initial assumptions instead. http://isshin-ryu.com/2012/10/06/rebuttal-to-david-chambers-article-about-tatsuo-shimabuku-isshin-ryu-training/ This section might mention, but clearly should not rely upon, such a questionable secondary source. Billyinthedarbies (talk) 11:28, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the response. A couple of things:

Thing the First: I have "no dog in this fight." I am only interested in accuracy. Seriously.

Thing the Second I did not list David Chambers as the author because he is not listed as an author. Now, if you have evidence that he IS the author and is hiding behind "Staff" or something like that, PLEASE put it HERE--Talk--and I will get the opinion of a Power That Be on how to handle the reference.

Thing the Third I "neutralized" your edit since, at this point, we have a difference rather than a rebuttal based on what is in the WIKI article. Now the WIKI article does not need paragraphs of Messieurs Sloane and Chambers questioning the chastity of their respected mothers, but, for example, something like THIS:

The CFA article claims that Shimabuko spent his time in Okinawa frightening the local children. Sloane's rebuttal cites the Okinawa Weird People Tribune which documents him teaching karate, splitting the atom, and curing cancer.

So then the reader can compare and make a decision.

SOOOOOO . . . I leave it to YOU to utilize the rebuttal you reference to do so! Please!

Point the Fourth The ONLY reason I removed the Facebook reference is because it is Facebook. That is not a reliable reference in my opinion. If David Chambers posted his article on his Facebook, I would not have at all considered it. If he posts later on his Facebook that "Sloane is a Doody-Head and I am Awesome!" I will ignore that.

BUT . . . if you think I am wrong, I will ask a Power That Be to review it. Let me know.

Again, I am interested in accuracy. TheDoctorX (talk) 07:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Re: "Thing the First," In the interest of accuracy, I do not understand why a single, "Staff"-attributed magazine article is the sole focus for the opening paragraph about Tatsuo Shimabuku. A scholarly book, with citations, such as Christopher Clarke's Okinawan Karate: A History of Styles and Masters, vol. 2, would be more appropriate. (In fact, Clarke's section on Shimabuku's history deals with the dubious CFA article in question.) Billyinthedarbies (talk) 12:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Re: "Thing the Second," David Chambers, the publisher of the magazine and editor of the story in question, is responsible for the content of this CFA article attributed to "Staff." Naval Officer and Fifth Dan Isshinryu karateka Andy Sloane, the primary source for the CFA article in question, names Mr. Chambers as the compiler of the article when he says Mr. Chambers ignored documentation provided to him for the article. Be that as it may, refer to Chambers as the "editor" of the article rather than the "author" if you prefer, but Mr. Chambers is ultimately responsible for the article's questionable content. Billyinthedarbies (talk) 13:01, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Re: "Thing the Third," I do not understand why a section about the history of Tatsuo Shimabuku, in a Wiki article about Isshinryu karate, "needs" to be a referundum on just how questionable or spurious a magazine article really is, especially when more substantial, less flawed sources exist (e.g. the Clarke book, Mark Bishop's book, or even the other CFA article you include, by Victor Smith). This seems strange. I would be happy to clean up the current mess, but I fear new language with reference to better sources would be "neutralized" also. Billyinthedarbies (talk) 13:15, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Re: "Point the Fourth," I do not recall what Facebook page you are talking about. However, if social media is posted by a primary source, such as Mr. Sloane, who assisted the current representative of Isshinryu on Okinawa, Tsuyoshi Uechi, while Sloane was stationed there, it might have some merit. I think Sensei Advincula, who personally worked with Tatsuo Shimabuku when stationed on Okinawa in the 1950s at the founding of the Isshinryu system, also posts his recollections in various places on the Web. WikiHow has a helpful article about citing social media in either MLA or APA formats here: http://www.wikihow.com/Cite-Social-Media-Using-MLA-and-APA Primary accounts by witnesses may have some value in an article. Well-documented secondary sources (such as Clarke's book) are generally better. Obviously flawed or biased secondary sources should probably be treated with caution, and certainly should not form the backbone of a section.

In summary, the section on Tatsuo Shimabuku's history is 19 sentences long, 10 of which refer solely to Classical Fighting Arts, especially an article attributed only to "Staff" but edited and published by a man named David Chambers. This article has been repudiated by its own principal primary source (see link above, and elsewhere on the Web). The CFA article in question is a secondary source of questionable merit at best, but, more importantly, the focus on it in the current language of the section distracts from the point of the section--giving a brief history of Tatsuo Shimabuku in relation to Isshin-ryu Karate (the main subject of the whole article). There are a variety of other primary and secondary sources available on the subject of Shimabuku's history that would lend themselves to a less spurious, clearer, and more accurate synopsis of Shimabuku's life in relation to Isshinryu.

UPDATE Ok, I reworked the Tatsuo Shimabuku section to address the "undue weight" problem (reliance on a single, questionable source). Language was simplified to keep the section topic focused (Shimabuku's training with regard to developing Isshin-ryu). While the Classical Fighting Arts article is certainly another voice in a sixty-year history of Isshin-ryu, I put the general idea of Shimabuku's early training history being somewhat controversial in a broader context, using a Japanese government document and a secondary source commenting on the meaning of that document, together with your quotation from the CFA article and a note that the article's own source challenges how his data was represented. This section also now refers to more secondary sources, including sources published by Tuttle and YMAA--two well established publishers in the field of the martial arts. The Clarke book is really a tertiary source, but quite germane in that it relies on a range of secondary sources, including addressing the CFA article in question in its documentation. Hopefully, this should bring a broader range of voices, more reliability, and greater accuracy to this section. Cheers! Billyinthedarbies (talk) 17:24, 30 April 2017 (UTC) ___________ Responding to points . . .

FIRST MOST IMPORTANT I am temporarily reverting the edit to recapture removed references. I am not clicking "post" so you may not see it. Benefit of having two windows open.

First the article is a scholarly article and hardly "spurious." A book published is not, necessarily, "scholarly." Be that as it may, it is best to consider the rebuttal rather than slather one or the other as reliable with out any evidence. That is a Well Poisoning Fallacy.

Second That may be but that is how the article is published. I will ask a Power That Be to review how the reference should be cited.

Third Whether or not your source, the CFA article, or the visions I am having listening to my Progressive Heavy Metal J-Pop, are "better" or "worse" depends on the evidence. History, by nature, has disagreements. It is best to simply compare the evidence without making a long-winded discourse on historical research. To give an example, one style has books that claims its Imperious Grand Poobah rose from his death bed, executed a perfect stance, then dropped dead! That is published. Students still refer to it.

It is also published, from interviews with family, and other actual, like, medical reports he died of kidney failure! He did not leap out of anything! Still, that myth persists. So how do you handle it? You can note it if enough people believe it, then describe how it was proven to be just a myth.

Regarding the history, it was a very, very short history which, I think, should be more significant than long details on the style if that makes sense. For this reason, I asked for more information.

To wit, I will now change the iPod to "Apocalypse in 9/8" and review all you added and see if we can come up with basically a fair and objective treatment.

Best! TheDoctorX (talk) 05:21, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

BIG REVISION

Just completed it. I will alert a "Power That Be"--PRense--to get his opinion--"too long/remove that/fix that" as well as how to handle the CFA reference. I am currently fixing the Reference section. ^^, TheDoctorX (talk) 06:37, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Revision UPDATE

Right, so PRense apparently looked at the article and repaired all of the references I borked--saving me time--thanks. I specifically asked on his Talk Page about citing the CFA article as "Staff" and/or "David Chambers." Since he did not comment yet I do not know what that means. Again, I do not have a "dog in the fight" regarding that: if WIKI allows adding evidence to a reference citation, neat and awesome.

If I do not get a response on THAT particular issue, I will look to see if there are Powers That Be who handle citation rules in the next few days.

Since he has not commented yet I do not know if that means he has any opinion on the revised text. I assume if he felt it was a mess he would have taken a cyber-blow-torch to it.

Anyways, take a look, let me know. TheDoctorX (talk) 05:08, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

I made minor edits, primarily correcting an ungrammatical sentence. My main concerns, as I have stated them above, remain 1) the problems of undue weight being placed on a single, spurious source, and 2) the convoluted language used to diffuse the focus on the section's purpose (a brief history of Shimabuku's training in relation to his development of Isshinryu). While your current rewrite, at least, retains the more substantial sources provided in my last edit (e.g. from the Japanese board of education for Shimabuku's prefecture), you did not satisfactorily address the concern of undue weight and the consequent disproportionality of the section's language. I am afraid we have not reached even a rough consensus in this regard, but you seem quite invested in shaping this section around an alleged "controversy." I still think this section should be a brief history of Shimabuku's training in relation to Isshinryu (the subject of the Wikipedia page in question), and might mention the alleged "controversy" but contextualize it among the many, many other available sources. As it stands in your latest rewrite, the section leads with the supposed controversy and emphasizes it throughout, as if that were the primary meaning of this section on Shimabuku's biography as it relates to the page's subject--Isshinryu karate. Strange. Billyinthedarbies (talk) 12:17, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

NPOV Tag

Added NPOV tag for the "Tatsuo Shimabuku" section under "History." The current language does not fairly represent a balance of perspectives from high-quality secondary sources. Mainstream views should be represented as mainstream, while a minority viewpoint should be represented as such. Specifically, undue weight is being placed upon a single, disputed source, and the section's language leads with that disputed source's supposed "controversy" (it appears immediately after the subject's birth and death dates) rather than presenting it in context of the subject's generally accepted biography.

In the interest of avoiding continuance of an "editing war," sample section language representing aims of clarity, accuracy, and proportional representation of secondary sources appears here below, should other editors wish to address the specific, recurring issues of undue weight and proportionality Billyinthedarbies (talk) 13:59, 5 May 2017 (UTC):

Shimabuku Tatsuo (島袋龍夫?) (1908–1975) was born Shinkichi Shimabuku on September 19, 1908 in Gushikawa village, Okinawa.[15] Shimabuku began training under Shinko Ganeko (Ok. Ganiku), his maternal uncle. Ganeko later sent Shimabuku to study karate from Chotoku Kyan.[16] Kyan served as Shimabuku's principal instructor and seems to have been the most influential of Shimabuku's teachers in shaping the Isshin-ryu style.[17][18] Sources also point to Shimabuku having studied for various lengths of time with three other important masters: Chojun Miyagi, Choki Motobu, and Taira Shinken.[19] [20][21][22]

While "The four most widely recognized of Tatsuo Shimabuku's instructors are Chotoku Kyan, Choki Motobu, Chojun Miyagi, and Taira Shinken,"[23] his early training history remains controversial, with one review finding his karate career "riddled with historical inaccuracies, flaws, and unlikely scenarios"[24] (yet even this review was challenged by its own principal source).[25] In this context, it may be important to note that the Okinawan Prefecture Board of Education formally lists Shimabuku under its Shuri-style lineage chart, as a student of Chotoku Kyan.[26] As Norbert Donnelly, author of several books on Isshin-ryu karate, suggests in reference to this chart, "This is an indication that the Okinawan Kobudo Association only recognizes his [Shimabuku's] Shorin-Ryu lineage and doesn't feel that his time in Goju-Ryu is adequate to maintain that lineage. ... This is not to suggest that Master Shimabuku didn't study Goju-Ryu, but that his study was not of a significant amount of time to be listed under that system."[27]

Shimabuku opened his first dojo in Konbu village and began teaching in late 1947[28] after being repatriated from Kyushu. Around this time, he adopted the name "Tatsuo," "Dragon Man."[29] He taught in Tairagawa village and also in Koza City before deciding to teach in his house in about 1948. On January 15, 1956, he held a meeting and announced that he was naming his new style of karate Isshin-ryu. Shimabuku's number one student, Eiko Kaneshi, was at the meeting and he asked Shimabuku, "Why such a funny name?" Tatsuo replied, "Because all things begin with one."[30][31]

At the age of 50 (c. 1959) Shimabuku began studying kobudō, the art of traditional Okinawan weapons, under Shinken Taira. Kobudō weapons included were the sai, bo, and tonfa. He incorporated the kobudō that he had learned from Kyan and Taira into the Isshin-ryu system.

15. Clarke, Christopher M. Okinawan Karate: A History of Styles and Masters, Volume 2: Fujian Antecedents, Naha-te, Goju-ryu, and Other Styles. Huntingtown, MD: Clarke's Canyon Press, 2012. p. 251 16. Bishop, Mark. Okinawan Karate: Teachers, Styles, and Secret Techniques. Second edition. Tokyo: Tuttle Publishing, 1999. p. 84 17. "FightingArts.com - The Complete Tatsuo Shimabuku". www.fightingarts.com. Retrieved 2017-04-24. 18. Okinawan Karate Kobudo Graph. "Shuri-Style Lineage Chart." Naha, Okinawa: Okinawa Prefecture Board of Education, 1995. 19. Bishop, Mark. Okinawan Karate: Teachers, Styles, and Secret Techniques. Second edition. Tokyo: Tuttle Publishing, 1999. p. 84 20. Clarke, Christopher M. Okinawan Karate: A History of Styles and Masters, Volume 2: Fujian Antecedents, Naha-te, Goju-ryu, and Other Styles. Huntingtown, MD: Clarke's Canyon Press, 2012. p. 252-253 21. Donnelly, Norbert. The Isshinryu System, first edition. Waterford, MI: Norbert Donnelly, 1999. pp. 20-22 22. Rosenbaum, Michael. Okinawa's Complete Karate System: Isshin-ryu. Boston: YMAA Publication Center, 2001. p. 55-58 23. Rosenbaum, Michael. Okinawa's Complete Karate System: Isshin-ryu. Boston: YMAA Publication Center, 2001. p. 54 24. Classical Fighting Arts Staff (2012). "Isshin Ryu Karate: A Riddle Wrapped in an Enigma". Classical Fighting Arts. 2 (46): 52–59. 25. "Rebuttal to David Chambers' article about Tatsuo Shimabuku & Isshin-ryu Training | The Isshin-ryu School of Karate, Hackettstown, NJ". Retrieved 2017-04-24. 26. Okinawan Karate Kobudo Graph. "Shuri-Style Lineage Chart." Naha, Okinawa: Okinawa Prefecture Board of Education, 1995. 27. Donnelly, Norbert. The Isshinryu System, first edition. Waterford, MI: Norbert Donnelly, 1999. pp. 8-9 28. Classical Fighting Arts Staff (2012). "Isshin Ryu Karate: A Riddle Wrapped in an Enigma". Classical Fighting Arts. 2 (46): 52–59. 29. Classical Fighting Arts Staff (2012). "Isshin Ryu Karate: A Riddle Wrapped in an Enigma". Classical Fighting Arts. 2 (46): 52–59. 30. "Birth of Isshinryu". Isshinkai. Retrieved 2015-10-27. 31. "2008 Commemorative". olemiss.edu. Retrieved 2015-10-27. Billyinthedarbies (talk) 13:58, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Neutrality

Unfortunately, questions about neutrality arise with all of the sources, especially when the only rebuttal to one appears to consist of a well poisoning fallacy. Reliance on such a fallacy rather does raise questions on neutrality from the other direction of course. Since an article that cites sources is not "spurious," I must recommend a familiarization with the definition "spurious." Nevertheless, that one may not "like" it, or one may even find it "wrong" does not free one of the responsibility to engage it objectively.

As explained previously, the objective, indeed, critical response to either of the principle sources is to demonstrate where they are correct and where they are wrong based on evidence.

I think "fresh eyes" should assist the in the matter.

That being written whether or not to identify an article based the journal is a matter of taste. Given the insistence that the article represents the sole "spurious" opinions of the publisher of the article, one might think the previous references as "CFA claims" rather than "the CFA article claims" would actually convey that insistence.

No matter.

However, the claim that one person--who disagrees with the article--is the "primary source" for the article is a claim. It may be a correct claim; it may be, dare I type this . . . spurious. Readers can go to both articles and make an informed decision.

"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln," the play seems fine.

TheDoctorX (talk) 20:54, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Undue Weight, Disproportionate Representation

Well, I do not believe Classical Fighting Arts is a refereed journal, as The Lancet, Nature, JAMA, etc., so I am not sure it is unassailably "scholarly" in nature. In fact, I recalled how that particular article garnered some infamy around the Web for its sensationalism. (Here's a discussion about it on Martial Arts Talk that popped right up when I Googled it just now: http://www.martialtalk.com/threads/classical-fighting-arts-on-isshin-ryu.105709/). So, I still find it odd to base a whole bio of Shimabuku around that one questionable piece. It's curious.

Be that as it may, there remains undue weight and a lack of proportionality in the section. I maintain that this section should not be a referendum on a dubious magazine article, but a straightforward and mainstream bio of the founder of the style that is the subject of this page. Billyinthedarbies (talk) 01:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Billyinthedarbies (talk) 01:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

The neutrality issues in the latest version of the section seem to include: WP:UNDUE WP:PROPORTION WP:FALSEBALANCE and WP:IMPARTIAL Billyinthedarbies (talk) 02:38, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Re: your suggestion for "fresh eyes"--good idea! I posted the issue on the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. Billyinthedarbies (talk) 04:25, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Undue Weight? Your MOM Has . . . :P

Well, The Lancet, Nature, and JAMA have published some howlers, and I never would consider CFA "unassailably" anything, let alone "scholarly." What that particular article has is claims of fact--dates, places--which are easily rebutted if they can be rebutted. I mean, it had the correct dates, which were wrong in this WIKI article before I blight'd its fair shores, which your sources also agree support. I cannot convey in terms stronger than this even with ALL CAPS and dancing cats that I 'WELCOME that article being torn to shreds and its reference being reduced to "an article disputes these claims, but see[1][2][3] . . . [37]," all the way to dumping it as a reference.

Regarding the MarialTalk--I understand if WIKI does not "like" such as a reference--the information posted, if valid, is valid.

"Oh Yeah? Well, Let Me Tell You!"

While I understand you may think I am "slightly less neutral than biased," I do not have a "dog in the fight." This is why I asked you on your Talk and HERE to engage the subject. You think the CFA article is biased. It may be. Frankly, seriously, really, I would not be surprised if it was.

Which is why I asked for rebuttal rather than initiate a pointless "Edit War" and demands for arbitration and all of that crapola. It is also why I when I contacted PRense I was not asking him to step into solve a personal conflict and all of that. Declare my edits "Awesome" and your edits "stupid!" and all of that! I am only interested in an accurate history.

I will say, however, that you probably are biased--and that is not meant as an insult. I assume Isshin-Ryū is your style--perhaps I assume too much--though I will write that I do not think you have put in too much "personal/conflict of interest" argument, but biases are very hard to avoid. I can understand why that article could upset an Isshin-ryū practitioner just as the facts on my styles have and still do upset practitioners of them. As a late venerable Aikido teacher joked to me on the whole problem with history and martial arts, "yeah, but I KNOW Ueshiba teleported himself!"

So THANK YOU for "I posted the issue on the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard." because I had hoped to find others who could look at the section and give their opinion. I searched in vain for a group of martial arts who might be willing to do that. I will add my "2円" so they know this is a sincere request from the both of us rather than one editor bitching about another. TheDoctorX (talk) 06:16, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Neutrality/Sources: The Story Thus Far!

For what it is worth as I posted on my fellow editor's Talk, it seems no Power That Be has found this article objectionable. From my standpoint, it seems to be fair in that competing sources have been cited, one I used has been "neutralized" so that it does not appear "authoritative," with other sources that disagree with it included, all done so the individual readers can make an educated decision.

I will not remove the Neutrality Warning box. I will leave that to other Readers/Editors.

However, if anyone wishes to weigh-in and make changes I would ask that they explain them with their edits and, even better, HERE in Talk. TheDoctorX (talk) 06:21, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Rank Issues, "I Don't Wike Bishop!" and Patches! Patches? We Don't Need No Stinkin' Patches!

Since people may not read their own Talk, particularly if they are nothing more than an IP number, I will explain some issues HERE:

I Don't Wike Bishop! Information False!

An "IP Number" editor removed a section declaring it false. He provided no evidence that it is false. I restored it and asked him on his "IP Number" Talk page to provide evidence that it is false.

Patch/Symbol

Same "IP Number" editor claimed that A.J. Advincula created the symbol then patch. This may be true. He provided no reference. I asked him to do that. If anyone has a reference kindly provide it.

This is on the Wikipidea article about Advincula:

Isshinryu Karate-Do, David D. Evseeff & Milledge Murphy Ph.D., One-Heart Publishing Co. January 1997 (2nd Printing)

"Some of his other notable accomplishments include; designing the Isshinryu patch,[2]"

Hope that helps. Pibolata (talk) 16:20, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Dan Grades

He also added a long section on grading without reference. I asked him to provide one. Anyone who has one, please provide it.

Kyan no Sai have no relation to Chotoku Kyan

Kyan no Sai bears the name of Shinei Kyan Sensei (no relation to Chotoku Kyan) who studied with Shosei Kina (and others). 秋山夕子 (talk) 02:03, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:RS: Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view).... The verifiability policy is strictly applied to all material in the mainspace—articles, lists, and sections of articles—without exception, and in particular to biographies of living persons... Kire1975 (talk) 02:21, 3 August 2023 (UTC)