Talk:Al-Shifa Hospital siege

March 2024 NPOV

As it stands, the section cites very little Israeli reporting on the siege besides official death tolls, and it almost reads like a newspaper article where claims from civilians are cited with little elaboration. It should probably, if possible, be expanded to include more discourse around the occurences from the witness accounts, especially to stick to the secondary source principle. — Hijérovīt | ^þⰁ_č 16:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

There is quite a bit of RS coming out now that the siege/attack is concluded. Example. Perhaps could make some summaries in the article rather than the daily event thing. Selfstudier (talk) 17:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

It looks like lot of that section is using the Al Jazeera liveblog, which updates daily and multiple times per day, which could also be a contributing factor to the news-like reporting. May need to use better sources per WP:NEWSBLOG since it’s possible the blog info may not be as stringently fact checked. Wafflefrites (talk) 17:33, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I think Al Jazeera wouldn't generally post any random, unverified tidbits. They tend to be rated pretty reliable. It would just be good to have more than their snippets of statements, and have more of a complete overview of those events. Ideally some sort of "civilian claims—authority 1 claim—authority 2 claim—news article analysis" structure. — Hijérovīt | ^þⰁ_č 20:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like a plan, but it also sounds like a lot of work if you can even find supporting/supplemental information and analysis for the civilian/authority claims. There probably are competing claims as well. It’s probably easier to start over and focus on secondary reporting rather than primary claims as you originally posted. Wafflefrites (talk) 22:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@Hijerovit: Unfortunately, that's not true - see, for example, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Al Jazeera reliability where we discuss a case of them posting a random, unverified tidbits. BilledMammal (talk) 00:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@BilledMammal Ah, thanks for the heads-up. I see the news blog note for AJ on WP:RSPSS as well now. — Hijérovīt | ^þⰁ_č 09:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

AJ is generally reliable until it isn't, that's what the green color at WP:RSP means. Selfstudier (talk) 10:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

This from CNN, late on into the attack. I'll just put a few more here, remind myself if someone else doesn't want to do it:

BBC:Gaza's al-Shifa hospital in ruins after two-week Israeli raid

NYT:Israeli Army Withdraws From Major Gaza Hospital, Leaving Behind a Wasteland

Reuters:Israeli troops leave Gaza's Shifa Hospital a wreck in sea of rubble

Haaretz:Israel Army Withdraws From Gaza's Al-Shifa Hospital, Palestinians Report Vast Destruction in Operation's Aftermath

Selfstudier (talk) 17:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Adding WSJ on MSN, usually WSJ is paywalled:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-s-campaign-at-gaza-s-al-shifa-hospital-reveals-gaps-in-effort-to-subdue-hamas/ar-BB1kTsfQ Wafflefrites (talk) 22:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Split article

Split November 2023 and March 2024 sieges into separate articles titled “2023 Al-Shifa Hospital siege” and “Destruction of the Al-Shifa Hospital” respectively. MountainDew20 (talk) 21:47, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking about this, and it would make sense for two standalone articles given the significant coverage. I would support. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

If we split it should be to "2024 Al-Shifa Hospital raid"; "Destruction of the Al-Shifa Hospital" would be too narrow a topic. BilledMammal (talk) 00:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree that there should be two separate articles on the two sieges, differentiated by their separate dates: November 2023 and March 2024. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Destruction of the Al-Shifa Hospital is not a NPOV name. The sources are quite clear that there was fighting between the IDF and Hamas militants [1], so the name should reflect it (e.g., 2024 Al-Shifa Hospital clashes). Alaexis_¿question? 12:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

What we really need is an article on how Israel has destroyed every hospital in Gaza, per sources such as How Gaza’s hospitals became battlegrounds, How Gaza’s hospitals, schools and places of worship have been destroyed and Destroying Gaza’s Health Care System Is a War Crime.

As for al-Shifa, Here's what we found after Israel's raid on Al-Shifa, Gaza's biggest hospital and Gaza's al-Shifa hospital in ruins after two-week Israeli raid are as good as any place to begin, evidently the euphemistic clashes is not the right description. Selfstudier (talk) 12:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

There is Attacks on health facilities during the Israel–Hamas war Wafflefrites (talk) 14:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm aware, a title that needs changing. Selfstudier (talk) 15:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

"Clashes" as euphemism for destroying and burning the largest hospital in Gaza would be next-level POV. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Alaexis that Destruction of the Al-Shifa Hospital is not a NPOV name. Clashes did occur around Al Shifa as well as battles. This has been confirmed by Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants. Hamas said they were fighting in the areas around the hospital but denied presence inside the hospital, the sources are in the Wikipedia article and also this one [2] Wafflefrites (talk) 14:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Look at sources I gave in the section above, "ruins", "Wasteland", "sea of rubble", and there are more in similar vein or worse, how would you suggest we title this destruction? Selfstudier (talk) 15:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

You only gave sources but you haven’t even written any part of the March siege article yet, while there actually is a section within this article titled “March 2024 siege” that details the days leading to the destruction. I think a better name would be “Al Shifa Hospital March 2024 siege”. Wafflefrites (talk) 15:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

In fact, there are more sources about the days leading up to the destruction that the handful of sources you provided about the destruction so the article should be more about the siege per WP:WEIGHT and also your comment about the sources you provided were relying on WP:HEADLINES Wafflefrites (talk) 15:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

about the days leading up to the destruction At least we agree on that part. The sources for what occurred during the two weeks are of course valid content but we should prefer the latest sources looking back for the title. Selfstudier (talk) 15:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I also agree with BilledMammal that the destruction is too narrow a topic. Plus Al Shifa is largely destroyed but not completely. We don’t know the future plans, and this article https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2024/04/07/3064958/basic-functions-at-gaza-s-al-shifa-hospital-cannot-be-restored-in-short-term-who talks about minimal functionality, so I don’t know if they will try to rebuild it, and it will be confusing if it’s rebuilt and renamed Al Shifa again if we have an article titled “Destruction of Al Shifa” Wafflefrites (talk) 16:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Even if it is rebuilt, it will still have been destroyed, anyway, they who write the article must decide a title and then submit to RM, RFC and the rest. There is no need for any consensus at this point. Selfstudier (talk) 16:26, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I also agree with Iskandar323 that “clashes” is euphemistic; there are sources calling this a two week long battle and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades was also involved [3] Wafflefrites (talk) 20:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm curious to know if there are any sources that testify that there were clashes within the hospital itself that do not rely solely on IDF or Israeli testimony. I'm aware of there being clashes around and in the vicinity of the hospital, but the only claims about fighting within the hospital appear to be Israeli. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

No the only thing I could find was this https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/al-shifa-hospital-under-siege-hamas-opens-fire-watch-emergency-room-encounter-idf-hits-terror-den/ar-BB1kJm4K but I didnt put it in the Wikipedia article since there was no secondary analysis. Wafflefrites (talk) 21:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Wait, this is from Al Jazeera :[4] "Intense battles have been ongoing for days inside and in the vicinity of the hospital." Wafflefrites (talk) 23:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

That's a running blog and no actors (or any real context) are mentioned, so that doesn't really give us much. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:29, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The majority of AJ sources in this article is the AJ liveblog. And in this case, they even put it in their own voice rather than attributing. Wafflefrites (talk) 23:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

There are now plenty of RS on the subject, I put some of them up above. Selfstudier (talk) 10:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

If we want a couple of attributable sources referring to it as a massacre, then https://mondoweiss.net/2024/04/come-out-you-animals-how-the-massacre-at-al-shifa-hospital-happened/ and https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6254/Gaza:-Shifa-Medical-Complex-witnesses-one-of-the-largest-massacres-in-Palestinian-history Selfstudier (talk) 13:42, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Mondoweiss is interesting, it mentions police inside the hospital firing at Israeli forces. Maybe that’s why the AJ liveblog referred to it as intense battles inside the hospital. Wafflefrites (talk) 14:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

POV tag

The lede is written in such a way to distract, overwhelm and obscure straightforward facts about the siege; that it was committed with an Israeli propaganda campaign on the existence of a vast command center below the hospital, which has never been found. This news media says this; Israel says that; this website says this; it is a mess that blurs the distinction between propaganda (as reported by RS) with facts. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I checked all the non paywalled sources used in the lead. 5 say “propaganda” but attribute it to Hamas accusing Israel of propaganda. The only source that actually accuses Israel of propaganda is Jeremy Scahill, which I have appropriately attributed and avoided wikivoice. The previous lead used wiki voice where not appropriate and editorializing words identified by Wikipedia’s Manual of Style. Reliable sources do not call it propaganda. They just say the evidence provided by Israel fall short it’s original claims of there being a vast command center, for example:

“The evidence produced so far falls well short of that. IDF videos have shown only modest collections of small arms, mostly assault rifles, recovered from the extensive medical complex.

That suggests an armed presence, but not the sort of elaborate nerve centre depicted in animated graphics presented to the media before al-Shifa was seized, portraying a network of well-equipped subterranean chambers.”[5] Wafflefrites (talk) 13:40, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Did you read the section Israel media campaign? The whole thing was predicated on Israeli (and US) propaganda, start to finish. Selfstudier (talk) 13:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I will check the sources in that section and get back to you. I actually didn’t change the lead much, if you look through my edit history. I fixed the MOS:EDITORIAL, issues and moved a sentence that was in the third paragraph to the second paragraph.

If editors would like the 2023 military siege to be about propaganda, than maybe more sources saying that it was propaganda needs to be placed in the lead. Wafflefrites (talk) 14:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I did a quick source check in that section. From the non paywalled sources that I able to check, only 3 use the word “propaganda”: The Nation, Democracy Now, and The New Arab. Wafflefrites (talk) 14:06, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes and then there all the sources saying that it was basically lies and misrepresentation (whether they used those words or not), that's what propaganda is. Selfstudier (talk) 14:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

This just further proves the point how the WP article is written in a misleading way; the article (seems to have been) published by the Intercept and should be attributed to the Intercept; not to a random investigative journalist named Scahill. Also we don't need to exactly use the word propaganda; many RS have said that Israel is outright lying, so this is another issue of semantics. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:11, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

All right, I am not opposed to others putting a sentence summarizing the body in the lead about lies and misrepresentation. It would make things more organized. Wafflefrites (talk) 14:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The Intercept article was written by Jeremy Scahill. Wafflefrites (talk) 14:19, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes in that case then the attribution would be to the Intercept, which readers would take more seriously than a person named Scahill, so this is just one example how there are problems of neutrality here. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:17, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Maybe, also that sentence is not following MOS:ACCUSED. Since you are the one who put up the neutrality tag, please feel free to make changes. Wafflefrites (talk) 15:45, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The "vast command center" wasn't found but the presence of Hamas fighters in and of tunnels under the hospitals in supported by multiple RS and should not be obscured in the lede. Alaexis_¿question? 11:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

That was not clear to me. I didn’t know that. I think most English RS just mostly focused on how there wasn’t a vast command center. Wafflefrites (talk) 23:45, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

You didn't know because it isn't precisely true, there was a tunnel that might have been built by Israel and no Hamas fighters (or show me sources saying the contrary). At any rate, nothing approaching sufficient evidence of a military use to justify attacking a hospital and killing civilians in the process. Selfstudier (talk) 10:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Split proposed

Many sources are reporting that the March "siege" was a massacre, with hundreds of civilians killed by israeli forces. This is clearly significant enough to warrant a separate article. Dylanvt (talk) 03:10, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Here are some examples:

1. Israel/Gaza: UN experts deplore attacks on Al-Shifa Hospital, urge States to stop the massacre
2. Al-Shifa Medical Complex witnesses one of the largest massacres in Palestinian history
3. Gaza: Al-Shifa Medical Complex massacre provides proof that the Israeli army engaged in full-fledged crimes
4. ‘Come out, you animals’: how the massacre at al-Shifa Hospital happened
5. Israel’s Horrific Massacre at Gaza’s Largest Hospital
6. Israel’s Brutality Is Increasing—and So Is Its Denialism
7. White House defends Shifa hospital massacre that killed over 400
8. Al-Shifa Hospital in ruins
9. Israel destroyed al-Shifa Hospital to accelerate social collapse in Gaza
10. Israel’s massacre at Al-Shifa hospital and targeting of aid providers are emblematic of its campaign of systematic destruction of life in Gaza
11. Gaza : Horrific scenes from the Al-Shifa Hospital Massacre (cw)

Dylanvt (talk) 03:17, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment: You have Euro-Med Monitor via ReliefWeb up there twice, as well as Mondoweiss twice. One of your sources is The Electronic Intifada, which is not a reliable source per Wikipedia. Personally, I do not think the English sources you provided are very mainstream. If more mainstream sources like CNN, The New York Times, AP News, Reuters, WSJ are naming it "massacre", then I would agree per WP:COMMONNAME, but it seems the mainstream sources are still calling it a "seige" or a "raid. Wafflefrites (talk) 03:44, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Yet is anybody denying the fact that hundreds of civilians were killed by an occupying military force? Is that not a massacre? Besides, the crux of this is not the specific wording, but the fact that the March event was significant and distinct from the November one and should have its own article. Dylanvt (talk) 04:09, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, I didn't notice the section above that already had discussion on this, as there wasn't a tag in the article itself before I added one. Dylanvt (talk) 22:09, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Best to split. This seems to have stemmed from a "continuation" or "renewal" of the november operation, which was a siege and was initally the only one covered by the article The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:20, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Support split and Oppose name “Al-Shifa Hospital massacre” per WP:COMMONNAME and lack of its use in mainstream reliable sources. I would support a name like “Al Shifa Hospital March 2024 siege” or “2024 Al-Shifa Hospital siege”.

Wafflefrites (talk) 04:19, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem with siege is the implication that all the Israeli forces surrounded but did not enter the hospital, which they did initially but not for the entirety of the episode. Attack is better and I think that is in fact what it was, Israel claimed the presence of enemy forces in the hospital as justification for it. Whether that actually holds up as an excuse I cannot say until I have looked at the sourcing a bit more closely but on past performance I doubt it.Selfstudier (talk) 12:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I think you are right about the siege definition. This probably means that the current COMMONNAME is not accurate. The reliable sources really need to get better at naming. Wafflefrites (talk) 13:09, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

"Siege" here does accurately refer to the first operation, where israeli forces circled the hospital in november for four days before raiding it. In the march operation, the hospital was immediately raided and because of the time gap and different type of operation which led to the hispital's destruction, it is distinct enough to warrant its own article The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:19, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The majority of reliable sources use words like "battle" or "fighting" SCMP France24 NYT AFP. Alaexis_¿question? 09:35, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

1. Al-Shifa Hospital witnesses reveal bloodshed of Israeli raids Today from the New Arab. Selfstudier (talk) 12:40, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

   The New Arab uses “raids” in its headlines and “second siege” in the body. Wafflefrites (talk) 13:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Support Split and Oppose Name There were two separate raids on the hospital so the article should be branched off into two articles, each covering one particular raid. I strongly oppose the term "massacre", since there is no mainstream consensus that it was a massacre rather than a battle. Many of the sources provided here to back up the "massacre" claim are blatantly partisan, such as Electronic Intifada, Jacobin, Mondoweiss, and ICJPalestine. It should be "First Raid on Al-Shifa" and "Second Raid on Al-Shifa" or "First Battle of Al-Shifa" and "Second Battle of Al-Shifa". The massacre allegations can be covered within the articles but they should not be presented as indisputable fact.--RM (Be my friend) 09:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

The second attack involves at least 200 dead militants according to the IDF but the reports from the other side speak of 381 bodies and another 15 a week later. This whole affair probably needs a complete investigation to uncover what occurred. The name of the second should not be merely number 2 or anything like that because it is at least clear that the death and destruction are on a completely different level and idk, massacre may in fact be appropriate. There should definitely be a split and the sources rounded up and examined further. Selfstudier (talk) 11:10, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

No, massacre is not appropriate. It was an extended battle. If you want to call it a "massacre" prove that it's widely acknowledged as being such in the mainstream. RM (Be my friend) 06:12, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I changed my mind about splitting the article. I don’t think it should be split due to continuity and context reasons. One example is the mass grave that was dug in the courtyard during the 2023 siege. Later in the 2024 siege, the IDF bulldozed the courtyard, according to the AJ liveblog source (which doesn’t provide context other than the courtyard was bulldozed). A better source may be needed but this is a continuity and context issue because only this Wikipedia article with the combined sieges provided the context that there was a mass grave in the courtyard that was bulldozed. Wafflefrites (talk) 13:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Mass graves

@Makeandtoss: You recently added content saying hundreds of dead Palestinians were found in mass graves in and around the hospital and 381 bodies were recovered from mass graves within and around the complex. However, that isn't supported by the source, which says that bodies have been recovered from mass graves, but doesn't say how many of the 381 bodies recovered had been recovered from there - and states that some of the bodies were found above ground, and thus could not have been in mass graves. BilledMammal (talk) 11:13, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: This should address your concerns. [6] Makeandtoss (talk) 11:20, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, it does. BilledMammal (talk) 11:22, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Updated AJ source re Khan Younis/Nasser Medical Complex mass grave also says "Earlier this week, a mass grave was discovered at al-Shifa Hospital following a two-week siege. It was one of several mass graves found at al-Shifa" Selfstudier (talk) 10:51, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier: You forgot to sign your comment. Wafflefrites (talk) 02:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, that source is in the wrong Talk page article. That source is about Nasser Hospital. This article is about Al Shifa. Edit: Oh wait, never mind, I see that you quoted a sentence about Al Shifa from the source. Wafflefrites (talk) 02:49, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I signed it now, and here is another "UN rights chief Volker Turk has said he was "horrified" by the destruction of the Nasser and al-Shifa medical facilities in Gaza and reports of mass graves discovered there." Selfstudier (talk) 10:51, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks but that source is a liveblog and didn’t provide much additional information. I think maybe you should add to the Wiki article rather than listing links. Wafflefrites (talk) 11:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm aware of how to edit, thanks. I am interested to discuss an article that deals with all the hospitals in the light of emerging info. Selfstudier (talk) 11:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, that wasn’t clear to me that you wanted to merge all the hospital articles / have an article dealing with all the hospitals. Was confused because there were also discussions about splitting this article, but maybe it is a good idea to have an article dealing with the military siege and a separate one of all the war’s impact on the health system, if an article like that doesn’t already exist. Wafflefrites (talk) 13:11, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, you did mention before, I forget where, the article Attacks on health facilities during the Israel–Hamas war which is a starting point. As to a split, I leave it to others to do or not, I can see the argument both ways. Attacks on Al-Shifa hospital during the Israel-Hamas war might work too. Selfstudier (talk) 13:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

There’s also Timeline of the Gaza Strip healthcare collapse, which is currently in list format. I am not a prolific writer, but it’s possible there are other editors who probably would be interested in more articles like these. There’s so many articles.. can be a little overwhelming, Wafflefrites (talk) 13:39, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

More details now on the mass graves thing Selfstudier (talk) 17:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes I saw that, here’s a UN primary source [7]. I think there’s a separate Wiki article for Nasser Hospital that I will add that to. Al Shifa article is a bit of a mess.. Wafflefrites (talk) 17:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Article says “ Among the deceased were allegedly older people, women and wounded, while others were found tied with their hands…tied and stripped of their clothes”. I read elsewhere the dead were patients. The ones with hands tied probably summary executions Wafflefrites (talk) 17:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Gaza Strip mass graves, there we go. Selfstudier (talk) 11:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)