Talk:Ahlam Shibli

Israel/Palestine

As the sources say, she was born in Arab Al-Shibli, and lives in Haifa. Both localities are in Israel, and were in Israel at the time of her birth (1970). Please do not change this to "Palestine". I am Dr. Drakken (talk) 14:57, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but the sources refer to her as "Palestinian", Regards, Huldra (talk) 01:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I have not objected to her being describes as 'Palestinian'. That's not the same as saying she was born and lives in Palestine. If the sources say that, that's a good reason not to use those sources, as they are unreliable. I am Dr. Drakken (talk) 03:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The place of her birth has a name and location on the political map of that year and this. I've added this information to this article, which is encyclopedic in nature and aims to be informative. The earlier description with its citations has been retained. -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:21, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Notability?

The article is currently nothing more than a listing of every exhibition the artist has ever had - including multiple showing of the same works in different cities. I doubt this is very encyclopedic. I am not advocating for the article's deletion at this point, but surely we can trim this down a bit. I am Dr. Drakken (talk) 14:57, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

It is common for articles on artists to have a listing on their exhibitions. The articles doesn't need to be "trimmed down". but rather, "built up". Also, I am removing the "prod" tag you placed here. It recommends that the article be deleted (in case you were confused). If you feel the subject is not notable enough, please use WP:AfD to make your case, rather than prodding it for deletion. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 16:34, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

It is common for notable artists, who have an actual article with content about them, sourced to 3rd party references, to also have a small section listing their major exhibitions, in notable museums or galleries. It is not common for articles about artists to be made up exclusively of listings of their exhibitions, in minor or unknown galleries, with the same exhibition being listed 5 or more times in different obscure galleries, all of it sourced to the artist's own website. But, I'm happy to take this to AfD if that's what you'd like. I am Dr. Drakken (talk) 04:37, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

You seem to have misunderstood my comment. I meant that rather than placing a prod tag on this article, if you thought the subject was truly not notable, you could make that case at AfD. Disputes over content are a different matter. Ethicoaestheticist has made clear the guidlines governing the listing of exhibitions and his/her changes are acceptable to me. But AfD is not the place for getting content removed from an article. Discussions on that occur here. I suggest you retract your AfD nomination, since it is clear that the subject is in fact notable and you seem to have filed it based on a misinterpretation of my comments. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 01:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've been convinced by Ethicoaestheticist's criteria that she is notable, and have retracted the AfD. I am Dr. Drakken (talk) 03:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Resume

I've removed the resume-like list of group exhibitions to here.--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

2008

• Les inquiets, Centre Pompidou, Paris [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's work:The Valley)

2007

• Documenta 12, Kassel [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's works:Arab al-Sbaih and Goter)
• Selección 27a Bienal de Sao Paulo, Museo de Arte Contemporáneo, Santiago [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's work:Eastern LGBT)

2006

• The Unhomely: Phantom Scenes in Global Society, 2nd International Biennial of Contemporary "Art of Seville", BIACS 2, Seville [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's works: Catastrophe, Mt. Tabor), Catastrophe, Berlin and Catastrophe, Halisa
• How to Live Together, 27a. Bienal de São Paulo, São Paulo [exh. guide] (Ahlam Shibli's works: Eastern LGBT) and Market
• A Tale of Two Cities: Busan—Seoul / Seoul—Busan, The Contemporary Art Exhibition, Busan Biennale 2006, Busan [exh. guide] (Ahlam Shibli's work: Trackers)
• Home Ground, Ivan Dougherty Gallery, The University of New South Wales, Sydney [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's work: Unrecognised)

2005

• The Pantagruel Syndrome, T1 Torino Triennale Tremusei, Turin [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's work: Trackers)
• Istanbul, 9th International Istanbul Biennial, Istanbul [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's work: Unrecognised)
• Mediterranean Encounters: Sud/Est, Parco Horcynus Orca, Capo Peloro/Messina [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's work:Positioning)
• Zehn Jahre, zehn KünstlerInnen, Gästeatelier Krone Aarau, Aarau [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's work: Trackers)
• Dreaming Art Dreaming Reality, Tel Aviv Museum of Art, Tel Aviv [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's work: Catastrophe, Refuge in Frost)
• In days gone by. At this time, Rubin Museum, Tel Aviv [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's work from the series: Unrecognised)

2004

• Ostati ili oticci / Bleiben oder gehen / Staying or Leaving, Hrvatski Fotosavez, Umjetničkom paviljon, Zagreb, and Camera Austria, Graz [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's work:Unrecognised)
• Non-Sect/Radical: Contemporary Photography III, Yokohama Museum of Art, Yokohama [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's works: Self-Portrait, and Goter)
• Unscene, Stephen Lawrence Gallery, University of Greenwich, London (Ahlam Shibli's work: Goter)
• Romantica, Sommer Contemporary Art, Tel Aviv (Ahlam Shibli's work:Kyoto)

2003

• DisORIENTation, Haus der Kulturen der Welt, Berlin [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's works from the two series: Unrecognised, and Wadi Salib in Nine Volumes)
• Landscapes from Here, The Israel Museum, Jerusalem (Ahlam Shibli's work from the series: Unrecognised)

2002

• Empathy, Art, Gender and Politics, Fujikawa Gallery, Osaka, and Plaza Gallery, Tokyo (Ahlam Shibli's work: Unrecognised)

2001

• Between the Mountain and the Sea, Haifa City Museum, Haifa [cat.] (Ahlam Shibli's works: Interrupted River, and from the series Wadi Salib in Nine Volumes)
• Liminal, Ein Harod Museum of Art, Ein Harod (Ahlam Shibli's work: Unrecognised)

2000-02

• From Mirror to Memory, Mane-Katz Museum, Haifa; Bat Yam Museum of Art, Bat Yam; Rehoboth "Museum of Art", Rehoboth; Ein Harod Museum of Art, Ein Harod (Ahlam Shibli's work: Wadi Salib in Nine Volumes)

Thanks, I agree this does not merit inclusion in the article. If we can agree on criteria for "notable" exhibitions (i.e: why the ones that are currently listed are ok, but these are not), I can persuaded to drop the AfD. I am Dr. Drakken (talk) 23:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

On the whole group exhibitions are less important that solo shows, which is why a long list isn't usually appropriate on an artist's biography. Exceptions are major international art exhibitions such as the São Paulo Art Biennial and documenta, which I left in the article. Only significant international artists are asked to participate in these, which confers notability. The List of contemporary artists gives this as criteria at the top of the page, and it's actually a more demanding test than the general notability requirements of WP:BIO.--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 00:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

What about solo shows in non-notable (small, private, obscure) galleries? Just about anyone can have those. I am Dr. Drakken (talk) 03:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The only private gallery listed in the solo shows is Max Wigram Gallery, which is a high end gallery on New Bond Street, not the sort of place anyone can turn up and be given an exhibition. All the others are publicly-funded museums and art-centres, some not obscure at all. I'm not sure about the el Kahif Gallery though, but it appears to be an art-center. I think the list of solo shows is fine as it is.--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 14:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Artist-in-Residence at the 2005 Acco Festival

The artist's photography show, "Five Senses," was previously listed among her works but without this significant background information relating to the high-profile venue and sponsorship by the Israel Ministry of Culture. I'll add a citation when the source material is published, which at present is being prepared for press in the Acco Festival's 30th anniversary book (which I'm translating it from Hebrew to English hence know whereof I cite.) -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of RS

Gilabrand, please explain this edit. You deleted two RS that describe Shibli as a Palestinian photographer. can your provide any that use the description you claim is correct? Self-identification is key to how we define article subjects. Shibli clearly prefers to identify as Palestinian and ere are numerous RS that report on her as such. Where are the sources calling her "Bedouin" full-stop?

I expect that if no sources are forthcoming you will revert your edit. Even if there are sources, we need to discuss how to include all significant viewpoints. Your edit is therefore unacceptable. Tiamut^talk 17:37, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

So you have reverted again, without discussion, as here. Can you explain to me why your sources are more authoritative than mine and quote exqctly what they have to say about her identity? You are cherrypicking soundbites while excluding the overall picture IMHO. All serious souces recognize Shibli as Palestinian and describe her that way. We should too. Please do a googl book search for "Palestinian photographer" with her name and for "Bedouin photographer" with her name. The result are five to nothing. Tiamut^talk 16:05, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

And by the way, if there any reason you reverted back to the old version about tending goats without mention that she attended school? It makes it sound like thats all she did during her childhood and that she didn't attend school. Would you mind please changing back to what I added in the edit you reverted above? Thanks. Tiamut^talk 16:11, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Tiamut, this article was up for deletion. I added information based on reliable sources that has enabled it to remain. It is a biographical article about a photographer - not a treatise on the self-identification of Arabs in Israel. Perhaps you are unaware of how exhibition catalogs such as those you quoted are prepared. They copy material from "press releases" composed by the artist to suit the theme of their exhibits. In that respect, they are an "art product" and have no obligation to stick to dry facts which are as follows: Shibli was born to a Bedouin family, lived in a Bedouin village, is a citizen of the State of Israel, has received funding and prizes from the Israeli establishment and mounted shows in Israeli museums. The issue of her slowly evolving, somewhat belated self-identification as a Palestinian is addressed in the article, but does not belong in the lead. Shibli is clearly a worthy artist who deserves a Wiki article. If I inadvertently deleted interesting facts about her, readd them, but please avoid turning the page into a political manifesto--Geewhiz (talk) 16:25, 20 June 2012 (UTC).

This article was up for deletion not for a lack of notability, but because the subject objected to how she was described herein. The discussion on notability took place years ago and I had a hand in saving the article then. Please don't impugn my motives or belittle my efforts at this page.

As for the content, the sources I quote are not art catalogues, as anyone can see from the diff above. They are secondary sources discussing Shibli's work and they are clear in how they describe her and her identity preferences. Please explain why we should ignore what these sources say. Are they unreliable? Is a weight issue? Is there any policy based reason? Or just your preference for "neutral" language that excludes the word "Palestinian"?

Also, I cannot correct the deletions you have made inadvertently without breaking 1rr so please fix the goat one yourself. You might also want to add Bedouins in the northern Galilee to the intro as you deleted my addition of them in your last revert. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 16:38, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

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