Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/statementbyDomer48

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( Ignores north every time unless kicking something that stinks. Boo hoos me. Would beat the brits out under the name United Ireland but wouldn't unite that Ireland for a winning lotto ticket. How can you ignore the state that I am from completely even though it is just as Irish? Is that selfish? I think so. A broad analysis but overlooking one of the major components. Is it the government and state of the Belfast you mention, Domer? Where, on what island, would you say that Belfast is? ~ R.T.G 01:45, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Please read WP:TPG and comment on content, not on the contributor., or your comments on me will be removed.--Domer48_'fenian' 09:10, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Links and content that support The term "Ireland" is ambiguous

Copied to talk after being removed by Domer. I think the actual content is more informative than the links alone. Rockpocket 04:20, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

1. "Ireland is the name of an island in the North Atlantic. Ireland is also the name of a state, comprising roughly three‐quarters of that island" Mary E. Daly, The Irish Free State/Éire/Republic of Ireland/Ireland: “A Country by Any Other Name”?. Journal of British Studies 46 (January 2007): 72–90.
2. "The Republic of Ireland occupies 70,282 sq. km. of the island of Ireland which has a total area of 84,421 sq. km." -The Irish governments website about Irelands geography
3. "The reason I did not propose to use definitely the name `Ireland' in the name of the State was to bring out the difference between the State and the national territory and the national home of the whole island. It is easy to make the distinction in Irish. In Irish you can take Stát na hEireann [the state of Ireland] or Oileán na hEireann [the island of Ireland] or Tír na hEireann [the country of Ireland]. In the same way, in English, if you want to distinguish between `State' and `Island,' you could talk of the Island of Ireland and of the State of Ireland.” Éamon de Valera. Printed debates Dáil Éireann (PDDE), vol. 67, 25 May 1937, col. 948.

Responce to Links

1. Far from it describing an ambiguous term, it places the subject in its correct political context. The last section in the article by Mary E. Daly (revisionist) sums up rather well “By the mid 1960s, Britain was the only country not to refer to the state as Ireland… however since 2000 it has… and the credentials presented by the British ambassador, Stewart Eldon, in 2003, were addressed to the President of Ireland… Yet Britain's recognition of “Ireland,” far from being “a gesture of despair,” as officials feared in 1934, now reflects a new confidence, a new level of involvement in the affairs of the entire island, and a more equal relationship with the United Kingdom.” SLECTIVE Quotes: Please remember WP:NPOV and add the balancing quote.
2. This dose not support the contention that the term "Ireland" is ambiguous. At the very least it could be considered WP:SYN, because the term Republic of Ireland is used, therefore the term "Ireland" is ambiguous" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. At worst this is original research, which includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, or arguments. Dose the source say that "Ireland" is ambiguous, the answer is no.
3. This dose not support the contention that the term "Ireland" is ambiguous. At the very least it could be considered WP:SYN, as it is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. At worst this is original research, which includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, or arguments. Dose the source say that "Ireland" is ambiguous, the answer is no.

Irelands government website

I think the fact that Irelands own government website page on geography uses the terms "Republic of Ireland" and "island of Ireland" goes to show that Ireland has more than one meaning there for they did not just say "Ireland". Im sorry but i really do not understand how anyone can question the fact that the term "Ireland" doesnt always refer to the country. Theres an island and theres a country, this is undisputed fact. The two things have the same name but are Not the same things, there for its ambiguous. The fact anyone agreed to your statement was deeply concerning because its totally ignoring fact. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:32, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I'm not sure how anyone can reasonably argue the blindingly obvious sentence "Ireland is the name of an island in the North Atlantic. Ireland is also the name of a state, comprising roughly three‐quarters of that island" does not illustrate ambiguity, ("a term is ambiguous if it can be interpreted in more than one way"). The very fact the same term is used to refer to two different entities (which everyone appears to agree with, since it is the very basis of this process) makes it inherently ambiguous. I'm at a loss to understand how this point is missed on so many people. Rockpocket 18:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Moreover, I have no idea how the quote describing the "correct political context" has any bearing on the ambiguity of the term. It says that "By the mid 1960s, Britain was the only country not to refer to the state as Ireland" (which establishes that the State is called Ireland). It later says, "Britain's recognition of “Ireland,” [the state] ... reflects a new confidence, a new level of involvement in the affairs of the entire island" (this establishes that state, called Ireland, is a different entity than the "entire island", also called Ireland). So how exactly does that argue against ambiguity? Rockpocket 18:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

That was said by Éamon de Valera, in a debate in Dáil Éireann (PDDE), vol. 67, 25 May 1937, col. 948. What did the 1937 Constitution when it was completed say, "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland." Now is that ambiguous? Before you answer, weather you think it is or not, original research includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. Provide a source to support your arguments, speculation, and ideas. --Domer48_'fenian' 18:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Domer perhaps we are all misunderstanding each other? The reason why i voted against ur statement and made my previous comment was because we are saying the word "Ireland" has more than one meaning. Its the name of a country (yes that is fact) but its also the name of an Island. Now im sorry but two things that have the same name makes it ambiguous. We are NOT saying that Ireland has more than one name, we are saying that "Ireland" means more than one thing (making it ambiguous).

Lets look at an example.. Is Georgia ambiguous? Its the name of a country and the name of the state, there for it has a disam page. Ireland is the name of a country and a name of an island. Its exactly the same problem. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:44, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Again, I agree with BritishWatcher. Domer, You seem to be conflating the debate over a preferred name for the state with the issue of ambiguity. Your sources are all good for supporting the claim that the state is called Ireland. Unless you are arguing that the modern state is exactly the same entity as the island, then I fail to see how any of the sources your provide address the issue of ambiguity. Rockpocket 19:33, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I am puzzled by Domer48's position here, so I would like to try to clarify it in case I have misunderstood something.

My understanding of the application of WP:V to ambiguity is that what we need is references in WP:RS to establish that thing1 is named "X", and "thing" is also named X. This means that if, for example, we want to create an article on a man named "Jethro MacWilliam" who was a 19th-century gold prospector in Paris, Yukon and also on a 20th-century man named "Jethro MacWilliam" in Crugmeer (Cornwall), then what we need are references to establish the notability of each person, and references to establish their name. The ambiguity arises because wikipedia is trying to accommodate two articles whose titles would be the same if we applied the normal article naming principles set out in WP:NAME of using the most readily recognised name: in those cases, we have an editorial issue of ambiguity, and apply editorial policy to disambiguate.

The crucial point here is that the ambiguity is an editorial issue. Each of these two people may be the only "Jethro MacWilliam" in their small villages, and an article on one of them which was circulated only in that village creates no ambiguity. The ambiguity arises solely because wikipedia is trying to accommodate an article on each of these people.

Now of course we also have cases where the ambiguity crops up regularly in ordinary life, such as where there are two towns with similar names in a given geographic area (e.g. in England there is Higham in Debyshire, only 44 miles from [[Higham, South Yorkshire|], South Yorkshire). In those cases there will usually be references somewhere which address the ambiguity ... but WP:DISAMBIG does not require such references. It just says "Disambiguation in Wikipedia is the process of resolving conflicts in Wikipedia article titles that occur when a single term can be associated with more than one topic, making that term likely to be the natural title for more than one article."

But if I understand you correctly, Domer, you are arguing that WP:DISAMBIG does not apply unless we have specific references saying that "thing1 may be confused with thing2 of the same name". Do I understand you correctly?

If I'm right, then what you are proposing would require a major rewrite of WP:DISAMBIG. How on earth would we deal with my example of the two men named "Jethro MacWilliam", who might never before have been considered together? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:00, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

So what it all boils down to is, no I can't provide a WP:V referenced source to support the suggestion that the term "Ireland" is ambiguous, only that I should not have too provide one. If you are unable to give referenced sources, why not try give examples of Ireland being ambiguous? I'm not arguing for a major rewrite of WP:DISAMBIG. I'm not arguing for a major rewrite of WP:COMMONNAME or WP:NAME either.

What I am saying is, is that Ireland is the name of a country, and should be treated like every other country on wiki. That this is nationally and internationally recognised, politically, geographically, historically and economically which is supported by countless sources. That editors are arguing ambiguity, without any WP:V sources to back it up. The only place in the world of politics, geography, history and economics were this ambiguity exists is on wiki.

This is all to accommodate a group of editors who can’t tell the difference between Ireland and Northern Ireland. Wiki is directed at the readers, and Angus has provided some original research here which addresses this point very well. So give examples of were the Ireland Article is or could be ambiguous, I suggesting this because of the dearth of references to support your arguments. --Domer48_'fenian' 08:58, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Im sorry but this is just crazy. Theres an island called Ireland and theres a state called Ireland. This is undisputed fact, and there are many references to prove such things. If there are two things with the same names its ambiguous. I think im more stunned that 5 people agreed with such a statement rather than the statement itself. This is not about a group of editors who cant tell the difference between Ireland and northern Ireland. its about the difference between the ISLAND of Ireland and the COUNTRY Ireland.

You say Ireland should be treated like every other country on wiki. What about Taiwan? China? Georgia? BritishWatcher (talk) 10:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with BritishWatcher: this is just crazy.

Domer, it doesn't boil down "I can't provide a WP:V referenced source to support the suggestion that the term "Ireland" is ambiguous". It boils down to this: there is no need for a reference to demonstrate ambiguity, and wikipedia would grind to a halt if every element of ambiguity could be resolved only of there was a specific reference somewhere saying that "thing1 may be confused with thing2".

The bad faith evident in your comment "accommodate a group of editors who can’t tell the difference between Ireland and Northern Ireland" is depressing. It isn't about editors, it's about readers. How many examples do you need to have this spelt out? I'll try a few:

1. History of Ireland may refer either to the history of the 26-county state or to the history of the whole island, depending on which meaning the reader attaches to the word (island or state). The first meaning (state) would exclude, for example, internal matters in the six counties since 1922 unless they had cross-border implications; the latter (island) wouldn't
2. Roads in Ireland may refer either to roads in the island of Ireland or to roads in the 26-county state, depending again on which meaning the reader has assumed for the word "Ireland". The difference is significant: apart from the geographic distinction, separate jurisdictions have led to distinct grading and construction standards, separate signing systems (without even the same units for distance), different road naming systems and different laws governing the use of roads.
3. Elections in Ireland may refer to:
   • Elections conducted across the whole of Ireland, whether under the Kingdom of Ireland to 1800 or the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland from 1801 to 1920 (this applies if the reader assumes that Ireland=the island)
   • Elections since 1920 conducted in the Irish Free State and its successors, but not hose conducted in the separate jurisdiction of Northern Ireland (this applies if the reader assumes that Ireland=the state)
   • Elections anywhere in the island of Ireland, whether under the Kingdom of Ireland to 1800 or the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland or in Northern Ireland or Irish Free State or the 26-county state (this applies if the reader assumes that Ireland=the island)

Your claim that "the only place in the world of politics, geography, history and economics were this ambiguity exists is on wiki" is bizarre. It exists out there in the real world, in day-to-day usage, but it's only on wikipedia that people try to deny that the reality exists. Out there in the real world, people simply use a form of words to clarify their meaning and get on with it, rather than denying that that the word Ireland" may refer either to 26 counties or 32 counties. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:05, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I ask for references to support the contentions, and get zip, I ask for examples and get zip, but what I do get is;

1. History of Ireland may refer
2. Elections in Ireland may refer to
3. Roads in Ireland may refer to

We also have words such as "is bizarre," "is just crazy," "I am puzzled," "is depressing", and the old chestnut the "bad faith evident in your comment" is typical of the emotive language to deflect away from the lack of references or examples, and then “there is no need for a reference to demonstrate ambiguity.” What WP:V source supports your opinions on ambiguity? We then have "It isn't about editors, it's about readers." The very point I made myself, and I pointed to the contrabution here by Angus. When the reader searches for Ireland, they are looking for Ireland. Not the island of Ireland not Northern Ireland, not Republic of Ireland but Ireland. I'm looking at the links to support or demonstrate ambiguity and its looking a little short at the minute. If it is so ambiguous "out there in the real world" you'd expect there to be hundereds of sources. Rather than saying that "the word Ireland" may (there is that word again) refer either to 26 counties or 32 counties, why don't we assume that they mean Ireland. Why not put at the top of the article "For the constituent country of the United Kingdom, see Northern Ireland, For the descriptive term, see Republic of Ireland.

On geography, for example, rivers, roads and mountains specify were they are? If they are in Northern Ireland, say they are, what’s the big deal? Now you say Ireland is ambiguous, what about Northern Ireland? The most northern part of Ireland is Donegal? Is Northern Ireland ambiguous? Ulster has nine counties not six, is Ulster ambiguous? Well yes they probably are, but are they disambiguation pages, no! Why, because the article addresses the issue, and addresses it quite well. Please, give us something to discuss here other than your unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas. Thanks--Domer48_'fenian' 19:07, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

"Northern Ireland" isn't ambiguous, because it is a proper noun, whereas the northern part of the state of Ireland would be described as "northern Ireland." Rockpocket 22:00, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Domer48, you want references. For what exactly?

Do you want references to support the fact that "Ireland" is a state which covers only 26 of the counties of the 32-county island called "Ireland"? Can we agree that this is not a contentious point, or do you think that's just a bunch of (to use your terms) "unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas"?

Or do you want references to support the fact that Roads in Ireland has different meanings depending on whether you read "Ireland" as meaning the 26-county state or the whole island?

You say that "if it is so ambiguous 'out there in the real world' you'd expect there to be hundereds of sources" ... but why should there be? Why do hundreds of people need to write essays on a linguistic problem which is obvious and which has a variety of possible simple solutions?

And once again, please read WP:DISAMBIG. Where exactly in that guideline is the requirement to produce a reference saying "these two things are ambiguous" before disambiguation is applied?

Finally, don't whine. You said that "this is all to accommodate a group of editors who can’t tell the difference between Ireland and Northern Ireland". If you accuse people of bad faith or stupidity, expect that point to be noted and responded to. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:28, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Domer48, you want references. For what exactly? Please lets not be silly and "don't whine." You have provided nothing in the way of references or examples of how it is ambiguous. While I've not accused anyone of bad faith or stupidity, your suggestion that I have is typical. User:Rockpocket at least made an effort and did provide references, and all we got from you is “there is no need for a reference to demonstrate ambiguity. Your latest comment "Where exactly in that guideline is the requirement to produce a reference saying "these two things are ambiguous" before disambiguation is applied?" is a very poor arguement. Now why not stop the emotive language and misrepresenting my comments and give us something to discuss here other than your unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas. Thanks --Domer48_'fenian' 09:08, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

A very simple question

User:BrownHairedGirl I placed this tag at the top of this talk page for a reason. You accusations above which misrepresents my comments, lends nothing to this discussion. I have in the past told you about this type of conduct, and will ask again now. Please read WP:TPG and stay on topic, thanks --Domer48_'fenian' 09:37, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Domer48, you said that the problem was "a group of editors who can’t tell the difference". Read WP:AGF for why that sort of comment is a breach of good faith.

Now, back to the substance.

First, you claim that I am "misrepresenting" you, so let me ask again for a simple point of clarification of your position. Do you accept that "Ireland" is the name of the 26-county and that "Ireland" is also the name of the 32-county island? Or do you want references for those two points?

It's not a complicated question. It's your chance to clear up any misunderstanding.

Secondly, let me ask again. "Where exactly in the guideline WP:DISAMBIG is the requirement or recommendation to produce a reference saying "these two things are ambiguous" before disambiguation is applied?"

Again, that's a simple question. Is the requirement or recommendation there, or is it not?

If you think I am misrepresenting you, then please clear up the misunderstanding by setting out your position on these two points of fact. It's your choice: I am trying to discuss matters of substance, but you replies so far consist of repeatedly accusing other editors of "unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas". If you want this discussion to stay on topic, then please address these points of substance. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:23, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

You are misrepresenting me, and answering your questions changes nothing. Now you've been told about your civility, and don't deflect this discussion. --Domer48_'fenian' 07:49, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Domer, I have repeatedly asked you to clear up any misunderstanding, and you have repeatedly refused to do that ... so any misinterpretation in entirely of your own choosing.

As your so-called "civility warning", please find a new trick (or take a look in the mirror). You consistently duck the substantive points and you made a series of attacks on other editors, so don't try using WP:CIVIL as a shield for whatever game you are playing here.

If you want the discussion to get back on track, try clearing up the uncertainty: Do you accept that "Ireland" is the name of the 26-county state and that "Ireland" is also the name of the 32-county island? Or do you want references for those two points?

Is that really such a difficult or outrageous question? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:55, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Since my time is currently limited, I’ll not be pandering to your transparent attempts at diverting the discussion. I’ve little time to be contributing, for me to be wasting it on you. That you can not provide a single source to support your argument that you must contrive to start another one to disguise this fact is blatantly obvious. Now I’ve said all that needs to be said, and your conduct speaks for itself. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Its funny that you can not answer such a simple question which has been asked several times. The question BrownhairedGirl asked isnt trying to divert the discussion, its at the very heart of the problem. Ireland is an Island and Ireland is a Country, there for its ambigious. This is fact, but it sadly appears that you do not accept this fact which is a great shame. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Domer, is this some sort of FUD tactic, or what? I'm really at a loss to understand what exactly you are on about, which is why I am trying to clarify your position. Unfortunately, all I'm getting in reply in allegations of stupidity and incivility, which get us nowhere.

You say I "can't provide a single source". I have been asking you repeatedly to clarify exactly what you want a source for, so perhaps you would be kind enough to answer a very simple question so that the discussion can continue.

So I'll try yet again. Do you accept that "Ireland" is the name of the 26-county state and that "Ireland" is also the name of the 32-county island, or do you want references for those two points? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

BHG I not interested in discussing your puerile attempts at deflecting comments on your civility issues. Your latest edit is typical in my opinion of your pettiness and confirms my position in not engaging in pointless discussion. That is my final word on the matter and repond to it what ever way you want, I'll not be wasting any more time on it. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Domer, you accuse me of incivility but call me "puerile". Hmmm.

Anyway, you don't have to reply if you don't want to. But that just leaves hanging the question of whether or not you agree the name of the state is the same as the name of the island, which is central to this process. If you regard that issue as "pointless", I really do wonder why you pay this naming issue any attention at all. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:53, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

He doesn't want to answer your straightforward questions so he FUDs you. My impression is that he thinks the island shouldd be the state (or the state the island) and he regards the bifurcation as illegitimate and therefore not to be validated by gracing you with the courtesy of a response. It is therefore slightly uncivil of you to press him for one (he thinks). But if he says this then his argument collapses on the altar of POV. Kittybrewster ☎ 11:26, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

EU Interinstitutional style guide

EUROPA is the portal site of the European Union [1]. Europa lists the "Designations and abbreviations" to use for member countries and are contained in the "Interinstitutional style guide". The names of the Member States of the European Union must always be written and abbreviated according to these rules. In the notes on the bottom of the style guide it states that "NB: Do not use ‘Republic of Ireland’ nor ‘Irish Republic’." Pleas provide a source which disputes or challanges this. --Domer48_'fenian' 18:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Disputes or challenges what? Rockpocket 22:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Supplementary discussion

Im sorry but this has nothing to do with ur statement that the term Ireland isnt ambiguous. We are not disputing the fact that the country name is IRELAND. What we are saying is IRELAND is also the name of the island. The two things are very different making it ambiguous. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

The point is the Eurpoean Union do not think it is ambiguous. So this has everything to do with my statement that Ireland isnt ambiguous.--Domer48_'fenian' 18:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Im sorry but you seem to be doing what you accused us of doing before. The European Union doesnt say Ireland isnt ambiguous, it says the member states official name is IRELAND and it must be described as IRELAND in all official documents etc. That doesnt mean the island of Ireland doesnt exist. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I could cite WP:COMMONNAME but I don't need too. The European Union doesnt say Ireland isnt ambiguous, but it dose say as you correctly point out the member states official name is IRELAND and it must be described as IRELAND in all official documents etc. The European Union doesnt say Republic of Ireland either, in fact it says "NB: Do not use ‘Republic of Ireland’ nor ‘Irish Republic’." So again, provide a source that says "Ireland" is ambiguous. I'm afraid no source = no discussion, how can I discuss what is after all only your own opinions, experiences, or arguments, supported by unpublished facts, speculation, and ideas.--Domer48_'fenian' 19:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Domer, since when does some quote not saying something, make it a source for the thing it didn't say? The official name of Ireland has no bearing whatsoever on whether it is ambiguous or not. Ambiguity is a construct of language, not official documents. Georgia (country) also has an official name, but because it share that nsme with something else, it becomes linguistically ambiguous. How exactly does Ireland differ?Rockpocket 19:42, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps me and Rockpocket are both reading your statement and your responses to the links we provided incorrectly, but i dont know how this can be put any more simply. We are not disputing the fact there is a country called IRELAND. All we are saying is there is also an island called IRELAND which makes the word "Ireland" ambiguous because its one word that has two meanings BritishWatcher (talk) 20:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

That's the point I'm making, "All we are saying is..." that is all you are doing. Now one last time, provide a source that says "Ireland" is ambiguous. Now if you are not going to provide a source, please don't respond. --Domer48_'fenian' 21:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Google - Define:Ireland

- "a republic consisting of 26 of 32 counties comprising the island of Ireland; achieved independence from the United Kingdom in 1921"

- "an island comprising the republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland"

There is an island called Ireland and there is a country called Ireland. Can you please tell us if you accept this fact?

Google - Define:Ambiguous

- having more than one possible meaning; "ambiguous words"

If Ireland is an island and Ireland is a country then it fits the definition of "ambiguous". BritishWatcher (talk) 21:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Google is not a source. Now if you are not going to provide a source, please don't respond.--Domer48_'fenian' 22:03, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Please can you tell me if you accept that there is an ISLAND called Ireland? BritishWatcher (talk) 22:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)