Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/Archive 13

Nihonji lacks spaces....

This is because it has markers like "ha" (pronounced wa), etc. So generally first and last names lack the anglicized space in them. I am NOT talking about romaji which would be for example, sakurada, but I mean nihonji: 桜田. Given this, when Japanese names are listed should they be Anglicized even though you're technically typing in Japanese? Example:星田　あゆみ v. 星田あゆみ. The latter would be how it would show up in Japanese books, Japanese media, Japanese magazines, etc. The former is more of an American way of trying to process the fact that another language has no spaces and is in anthropological terms ethnocentric (i.e. the idea that your culture must contain rules for all other cultures, or other cultures should conform to your culture--this is not negative or positive... it just is and exists). I would think that real representation of the words when written in script that is native to the language would make most sense... Again NOT romaji. nihonji (kanji and the various forms of kana) --Hitsuji Kinno 06:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Ethnocentric is a loaded word, but of course you are right. There should be a policy to have no spaces. Leaving spaces out of the names won't make it hard on the eyes for anyone - the only people who will process the kanji are the ones who already know (some) Japanese. Dekimasu 07:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

On the Japanese wikipedia, they tend to put a space in the hiragana of people's names (ja:小泉純一郎, ja:宮崎駿 for two random examples). I normally put a space in the kanji of a person's name inside the nihongo template, since it is a mapping between the romaji (which is separate) and the kanji. If the romaji is separated, the kanji should be. A good example is Naicho where the words are easily parsed, and those of us who would write out the whole word in Japanese would know not to put the spaces in. If the kanji is pushed together, then there is no justification why the title should not be written as Naikakujouhochousashitsu either (ignoring the ou -> ō problems). Neier 10:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Romaji is separated for ease of reading. There's nor formal standard (that I'm aware of), except it tends to be clumped in groups of 2-3 kanji worth of sylables. However, while it's true there isn't a formal standard on how to separate out the syllables, it *is* standard to separate Japanese out in such a fashion. On the other hand, there is no established standard for inserting spaces into strings on kanji, and a fairly decent one for not doing so with kanji (no native speaker does it, and that's their own writing system). Rhialto 11:19, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Huh? What's wrong? We do usually put a space between one's family and first name. Actually in ja.wp it's declared in MoS: ja:Wikipedia:スタイルマニュアル (人物伝)#例. It's also okay not to separate and this is rather formal, so the titles of the articles don't have spaces. In daily life, it mainly depends on the writers' preferences whether include a space or not (thus, you can even obserb there sometimes occur "space-removing vandalism"s in ja.wp). Especially if there won't be any confusion, you can rather safely omit the space. Say, no one would treat 星田あゆみ as 星田あ ゆみ or 星田あゆ み. Look, quoted from the MoS above:『名字と名前の境界には「半角スペース」を入れて下さい。名字と名前の境界が明らかな場合には、半角スペースは省略しても構いません』 in English "Please put a half-size (one-byte) space between one's family and first name. If the border is obvious, you may drop the space."

Note, however, this space insertion is felt natural just for names. 内調 as 内閣 情報 調査室 seems quite odd to me... --marsian 12:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for digging up the J-MoS. I think we should follow that here too. And, for longer titles and phrases I agree that it is odd to see the separation; it is just an assistive device for people to see where the breaks in romaji align with breaks in the kanji though. I don't know if that should be a focus for our articles or not, and cannot come up with any other better reason to keep them. And, I also notice that in a bazillion train station articles, I have gone against my own reasoning above and put ○○駅|MaruMaru Eki with no spaces in kanji in the opening sentence, so feel free to slap me with a fish until I regain my senses. Another thought—maybe it is possible for the CSS inside the nihongo template to hide spaces?? Neier 14:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the reasoning behind putting a space in the rōmaji for station names is to allow tracking between the English and the rōmaji: Marumaru Station (○○駅, Marumaru Eki). No space is ever put in the kanji for station names, however.···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 16:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

> it is just an assistive device for people to see where the breaks in romaji align with breaks in the kanji though

Oh, I see. I'm sorry, no offence though, you know. And... I must confess I laughed out loud at the Monty Python sketch! so funny... :) --marsian 14:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The kanji/kana versions of names are supposed to be in Japanese, not pseudo-Japanese. That's because our intention is to describe the reality, not a coloured version of it. If you add spaces – even as an assistive device for westeners – where a Japanese person would hardly ever consider putting them, it renders the name pseudo-Japanese. On the other hand, if spaces are OK in personal names, even if not necessary for a native speaker, they should be added in my opinion. At least there should be a clear rule on this to avoid confusion.

So I propose this guideline: spaces between kanji/kana words for all personal names; no spaces for everything else, including place names. (Note however that I don't speak Japanese and my assertions may be faulty.) Rōmaji, of course, has spaces always. (Exactly where, is another question.) Japanese script and rōmaji aren't supposed to map perfectly to eachother – it's impossible. Wipe 07:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Chuo

So, now that we've gone over the city names over and over again, the various things called "中央" seem to have falled through the cracks. Are we deciding to keep all of them as "Chuo" and not "Chūō"? I mean, I admit it might look kind of weird to have semi-macronned names like "Chūō, Tokyo" and "Chūō, Osaka", and I do understand the Train project argument that the non-macronned "Chuo Main Line", "Chuo-Sobu Line" are the official Anglicized names from the company or whatever. But that still leaves half a dozen other Chūō-ku in other cities, along with the Chuo Expressway. What's the consensus? LordAmeth 13:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I can see no solution to this problem holding a middle ground. The fact that Tokyo and other major cities stand out as exceptions against the current implementation of rules complicates everything.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  00:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd use macrons by default, because "Chūō" can be translated into the English word "central". And it would be difficult to prove any extensive usage of "Chuo" with or without macrons, in the English language. I already created one article called Yokosuka-Chūō Station WITH macrons.--Endroit 00:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I remember once seeing a bumper sticker that read "Yokosuka CHEW-OH!" In fact, there are two Google hits. So there's an alternative to the macrons (I'm joking!). Fg2 04:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

School IP notice

I ported the English-language school IP notice for an IP address used by Shinjuku Yamabuki High School on Wikipedia-JA: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%88%A9%E7%94%A8%E8%80%85%E2%80%90%E4%BC%9A%E8%A9%B1:221.114.251.157

I would like for someone to translate the notice :) WhisperToMe 02:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I looked through about 300 vandal pages on jaWiki, but it doesn't seem that they are using such IP notices there yet, probably because AOL doesn't exist in Japan and thus they don't have such a big problem with single IPs there. Translating into English is one thing, but you'd be best to ask at chatsubo to see if someone will translate it into Japanese for you. I don't think they'll want to translate the part about contacting the school if there's problems, though. Wikipedia isn't exactly that well known in Japan.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  01:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Really? Whenever I go on at school, my students call out "Wikipediaや!" with enthusiasm. Dekimasu 04:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

AOL does exist in Japan, though I don't think they have as huge a problem with it as we do. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I have never even heard of it here. And they didn't even bother to change the name to JOL. Dekimasu 04:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

AOL is fairly big in Japan, and the "AOL" name is even used in "old Europe" (as populated by cheese-eating surrender monkeys and the like). I think there's not so much of a problem with vandalism in Japan as the percentage teens (of all ages) who are obnoxious twits is lower in Japan than in the more populous anglophone nations (though I can't immediately provide factual evidence for this). Plus Japanese kids don't use computers: they use phones, and writing "Eric is a fag" (in any language) requires an irritating number of thumbstrokes. -- Hoary 09:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Then it must be a regional thing, because there is never any hint of AOL in this area. And I like Japan just fine, but I don't find your lower percentage comment to be true either. The last comment is sure true... but it's never stopped me from editing Wikipedia from my cell. Dekimasu 10:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The notice has been translated :) WhisperToMe 01:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks WhisperToMe. I was getting worried this thread might get nominated for WP:LAME. Rhialto 01:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Ryu vs. Ryū

I understand the macron debate. I personally feel the macrons make the English-language Wikipedia harder to use and overall less useful, but I also see the advantages. In particular, however, I note that a number of martial arts titles have been changed so that the main article is at -ryū rather than at -ryu (e.g. Isshin-ryū, Uechi Ryū. In my opinion, in the martial arts media, ryu is widely accepted and used; it's what's commonly seen in all the major martial arts magazines, for example; in the Yellow Pages ads; and on most English-language web pages. Right now a search on "isshin ryu" goes to the page Isshin-ryu which is a redirect page, but doesn't automatically redirect.

So, IAW Romanisation 11 (which cites Sumo as an example), I'd like to suggest that "ryu" be considered sufficiently common that it does not need a macron. For evidence, pick up your phone book and look at the Karate schools under Martial Arts. JJL 18:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It all depends on context and commonality. If, in the English language, something is more well known in non-macronned form, then that's how it should be listed here (except in the rōmaji section of the Nihongo template used to introduce the term). Examples of this include Tokyo, Osaka, and many others. In fact, this is listed in the Manual of Style as an exception to the rule, so I don't know why people keep bringing this up over and over unless it's because they don't bother reading it. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems like the vast majority of the time a word is more widely used in the non-macronned form then the macronned form. Are you saying that if I find something much more common in the un-macronned form than the macronned form I can go ahead and change it to the un-macronned form without bringing it up for discussion? Jecowa 08:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, no, Jecowa. Your examples are a different discussion altogether (above). And Google is not necessarily a good way to determine commonality. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 17:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

How is the Google test not a great way to determine commonality? The Google test is the first method given by the naming conflict guideline for identifying the most common names used for a subject. It says to do an advanced search, to search for only English language pages, and to exclude the term "Wikipedia" from the search. I forgot to do that last part though, so it should be un-macronned search and macronned search. The macronned form of Hokkaido is relatively rare. The ratio of the macronned form to the un-macronned form of Hokkaido is 1 to 1336. Jecowa 18:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I said it wasn't necessarily a good way to determine it. And I was referring to your bringing the Hokkaidō/Hokkaido discussion down here when it's being discussed elsewhere. Please keep the various discussions separate to avoid confusion. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for mentioning Hokkaido in the wrong place. By the way, when you said, "If, in the English language, something is more well known in non-macronned form, then that's how it should be listed here," did you say that in favor of "Ryu" or "Ryū?" I think it was okay for JJL to ask for permission to move the page first, so he could make sure before he made a possibly controversial change. Also, where else is Hokkaidō/Hokkaido being discussed? I don't see it here or on Talk:Hokkaidō. I'd like to join it. Jecowa 08:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, on Talk:Hokkaidō. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 09:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The reason I bring it up now is because some Karate pages were moved to the macronned form within the past week (e.g. Uechi Ryū on 12 Nov.). I'd like to move them back, but since macrons are the default I was looking to see if there was support for my contention that -ryu is, like Sumo, common and standard. JJL 14:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

"Sumo" (technically sumō) is well understood by native English speakers, even those who have never seen a match. However, I really doubt that many native speakers understand "-ryu / -ryū". I would be interested to see a survey: "Do you know the word sumo? Do you know the word ryu?" I do not have access to native English speakers though. Sure, martial arts is popular and there are various magazines. The use of either -ryū or -ryu becomes jargon, technical vocabulary for that context. It is not general and should not be expected to be well understood, if even at all, by ordinary speakers. Bendono 20:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand that it could be considered jargon, but I do think that many people have heard or read about (something)-ryu from time to time. A Google news search on +ryu karate turns up a fair number of hits from newspapers; a search on ryu alone turns up more, including the character Ryu from the Street Fighter video games, but also false positives (e.g., the Korean name Ryu). The Ryu page here shows that the word has many appearances in English--in martial arts, manga and fantasy, and music. (I'm not sure those are all derived from the Japanese ryu.) It appears that way on the web and in print ads. So, while I agree that Sumo is better known, I think ryu is reasonably familiar, as it appears in numerous contexts and various media. JJL 21:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

"Ryu" may be fairly well-known as a Street Fighter character, and in various other pop culture references. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a bastardization and misrepresentation of the original term. As I've written someplace else, "りゅ" is not a word at all, while　"りゅう" (ryuu or ryū) is. Depending on the context, it can refer to either a dragon　(竜) or a style or school (流), such as in karate. The fact that kids learning karate at their local strip mall might not care to learn anything about Japanese language or culture doesn't change the fact that "karate" and "ryu" are Japanese words, not English ones. I'll fully accept that karate, like karaoke and sushi has fully entered the mass consciousness of Western society; but "ryuu", in most contexts outside of video games and anime has not. In fact, I'd imagine that the vast majority of people who study other forms of budō, such as iaidō, kyūdō and kendō will be fully aware of the long vowels in ryuu and dou and would agree with me on this. The web, print ads, all of these sorts of things are of no significance in determining the accurate spelling of such terms. I suggest you look to scholarly works, or to any sensei of the Japanese/Okinawan tradition; they will surely agree that "do" and "ryu" are not accurate representations of the Japanese/Okinawan words. LordAmeth 20:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Breadth of MOS:JP

It occurs to me that we need to have some sort of discussion about whether MOS:JP applies to articles that deal with the other Japonic languages and Ainu. As an example, we currently have references (via Okinawan) to gōyā, etc. Of course this differs from the official Japanese name (tsurureishi) and the usual Japanese spelling (katakana gōya), but the correct Okinawan spelling gōyā/gōyaa would be deprecated under the current guidelines. There are undoubtedly far greater problems with the Japanese renderings of certain things in Hokkaidō, but I have studied Hokkaidō little and been there rarely. Should there be guidance to allow the original spellings? Dekimasu 05:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be fine to add something to the effect of "The transliteration of related languages such as (but not limited to) Ainu and Okinawan should use the accepted standard transliteration for that language, if any. If none exists, the Japanese transliteration as described here should be used." Of course this means that we need to find a few references to what the accepted standard is for these languages before doing so. Anyone have some good references for this? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:39, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

It should be "Ryukyuan", not "Okinawan". Also, I think you need to add a phrase saying that if the Ainu/Ryukyuan word is written in Japanese exclusively in katakana, WP:MOS-JP shall not apply. I'd hate to see the Tokunoshima word Doumoi (ドウモイ) butchered into Dōmoi. See Domoic acid and ja:ドウモイ酸.--Endroit 16:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Dekimasu 02:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so how about this: "The transliteration of related languages such as (but not limited to) Ainu and Ryukyuan should use the accepted standard transliteration for that language, if any. For transliterations of these words which are always written in katakana in Japanese, a direct katakana to rōmaji transliteration—without macrons—should be used (e.g. ドウモイ becomes "doumoi" rather than "dōmoi"). If no other accepted transliteration method exists, the Japanese transliteration as described here should be used." ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The links should be to Ainu language and Ryukyuan languages. I just cursorily changed Ryukyuan to a disambiguation page since it had been a redirect to Ryukyuans, but don't have any time to do any real fixing up there now. Also, it still doesn't deal with the extra macronning we have in place for gōyā, which would presumably become gouyaa. I'm not convinced that one is just a katakana macron, but I simply don't know anything about transliterating Ryukyuan. Dekimasu 02:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

From everything I can tell, it's always written as ゴーヤー, so gōyā would be correct. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Presumably people who speak Ryukyuan don't write their words out in katakana, which makes it an issue. In normal Japanese I normally see ゴーヤ in the grocery store and restaurants. I realize we're overloading you here when there's no reason you should have to be the one to know, but I hope that someone does. Dekimasu 17:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

If they have an accepted standard transliteration for Ryukyuan, then it should be used. That's what my proposal states. I'm not understanding where the confusion is here. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It says that "for transliterations of these words which are always written in katakana in Japanese, a direct katakana to rōmaji transliteration—without macrons—should be used," which would make ゴーヤー into gouyaa rather than gōyā. I think the confusion I have is that the second sentence isn't worded as contingent upon the conditions of the first sentence not being fulfilled. The content of the third sentence needs to be in front of the second sentence in order to make the order of operations clear. Dekimasu 20:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Not that it helps resolve anything but, ja:琉球語 and ja:ウチナーヤマトグチ talks a little about the nature of Ryukyuan.--Endroit 18:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

No, that's quite helpful. The relevant part of JA says that they originally used Chinese characters (independent of Japanese kanji) and also adopted a hieroglyphic system. It also says that Japanese kanji may be used alongside Ryukyuan readings (giving the examples 地名の「あがり」を「東」、「いりおもて」を「西表」という漢字を当てて書くことなどである). Putting the two together seems to exclude the Japanese spellings for Ryukyuan terms in any case in which the proper Ryukyuan name can be determined. Dekimasu 18:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if this couldn't be handled more simply by altering #2. Dekimasu 18:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Nihonjoe, can you elaborate just a little more on the Ainu language? Apparently Ainu is so different that they use 16 extended Katakana characters [1] and more, to represent words ending in consonants. This is so different from Japanese.

ㇰ (ク)、ㇱ (シ)、ㇲ (ス)、ㇳ (ト)、ㇴ (ヌ)、ㇵ (ハ)、ㇶ (ヒ)、ㇷ (フ)、ㇸ (ヘ)、ㇹ (ホ)、ㇺ (ム)、ㇻ (ラ)、ㇼ (リ)、ㇽ (ル)、ㇾ (レ)、ㇿ (ロ)、セ゚ (セ゜)、ツ゚ (ツ゜)、ト゚ (ト゜)、ㇷ゚ (プ)

For example, ainu-go (アイヌ語) in Japanese language is aynu itak (アイヌ イタク) in Ainu language, kami (神, god/spirit) is kamuy (カムイ), kawa (川, river) is pet　(ペッ), yūkara (ユーカラ, traditional Ainu sagas) is yukar (ユーカラ).

See Ainu language, ja:アイヌ語, and related articles for details.--Endroit 15:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not really that familiar with Ainu, though I'd like to learn it. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 17:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Me too. But in your wording, I think you need to let people know that, for Ainu, a separate transliteration system exists as summarized in the Ainu language article, and that normal rules in WP:MOS-JP should not apply. Ainu is totally different.--Endroit 17:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The transliteration of related languages such as (but not limited to) Ainu and Ryukyuan should use the accepted standard transliteration for that language, if any. It already says that. If a separate transliteration system exists, it should be used. I'm not sure how to make that sentence more clear. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I just want to make sure people don't get the wrong idea. Can you squeeze in the additional sentence below, or something similar?

• "For example, yukar is the correct transliteration for the Ainu word ユーカラ, not yūkara."

Otherwise, it seems fine.--Endroit 19:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, perhaps we should create a sub-page which details the standard transliterations for each of these languages? Something like Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/Ainu and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/Ryukyuan. I think that would be better than giving an example on the main page. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 20:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, updated proposed wording: "The transliteration of related languages such as (but not limited to) Ainu and Ryukyuan should use the accepted standard transliteration for that language, if any. If there is no accepted standard transliteration for that language, and the word is always written in katakana in Japanese, a direct katakana to rōmaji transliteration—without macrons—should be used (e.g. ドウモイ becomes "doumoi" rather than "dōmoi"). If no other accepted transliteration method exists, the Japanese transliteration as described here should be used." ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 20:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I have studied Ainu a little. With the main exception of the Sakhalin dialect, Ainu does not not contrast between short and long vowels but rather replaces them with diphthongs. Thus, there is little need for a macron. Bendono 07:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Dekimasu 08:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for being komakai (so detailed), but I will ask you to make 3 changes:

1. Link "Ainu" to Ainu language
2. Link "Ryukyuan" to Ryukyuan languages
3. Change "the word is always written in katakana" to "the word is usually written in katakana". ("Always" doesn't happen in real life, because I've seen ラーメン/ramen written as らうめん.)

So the final version will be:

• "The transliteration of related languages such as (but not limited to) Ainu and Ryukyuan should use the accepted standard transliteration for that language, if any. If there is no accepted standard transliteration for that language, and the word is usually written in katakana in Japanese, a direct katakana to rōmaji transliteration—without macrons—should be used (e.g. ドウモイ becomes "doumoi" rather than "dōmoi"). If no other accepted transliteration method exists, the Japanese transliteration as described here should be used."

--Endroit 15:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, final wording: "The transliteration of related languages such as (but not limited to) Ainu and Ryukyuan should use the accepted standard transliteration for that language, if any. If there is no accepted standard transliteration for that language, and the word is generally written in katakana in Japanese, a direct katakana to rōmaji transliteration—without macrons—should be used (e.g. ドウモイ becomes "doumoi" rather than "dōmoi"). If no other accepted transliteration method exists, the Japanese transliteration as described here should be used." ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 20:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. It looks good now.--Endroit 13:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 18:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

figures

What is meant by "figures?" E.g. Historical figures, Modern figures. Does this term only refer to politicians, revolutionists, and mythological characters or does it include everyone? Jecowa 08:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

A "figure" is any person. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 09:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The Hercule debate

Ah, the lovely Talk:Hercule (Dragon Ball) debate involves two groups - One who prefers the name (in the original Japanese version) Mr. Satan, and one who prefers the U.S. dub name Hercule.

There have been two move requests from Hercule to Mr. Satan - One filed about a week after the first one failed.

WhisperToMe 22:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Rikishi "names"

There's a very curious discussion on-going at Talk:Asashoryu Akinori#Requested move, where this guideline is being quoted as if it overrides the general principle of common names, or indeed that its application would in any way justify the current article title. Surely any sensible application of the naming conventions would conclude that wrestlers should be either at their shikona as it's actually used, or else at their actual, legal "real" names (if one is going to ignore convention, and appeal to "encyclopaedic accuracy" in the abstract). No-one would ever use their "shikona first names" to disambiguate between Takanohana I and Takanohana II, and the current scheme just leads to tortuous piping to get a more reasonable style in article text (see the first article for an example of same). These are not actual Japanese family and given names, and to insist on using them in article titles as if they were (in either classical or Westernised style) seems to me misguided. Alai 23:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)