Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/War of the Bavarian Succession/archive1

how do you solve a problem like Maria, Joseph, and Charles

Maria Amalia, 1701-1756, daughter of Joseph I, Holy Roman Emperor (1701-11), Niece of Charles VI, HRE 1711-40 who is the father of Maria Theresa. Maria Amalia’s husband, Elector Charles of Bavaria (Charles VII, HRE) sought the title in opposition with Maria Theresa, who was his wife’s cousin. When Elector Charles died in 1745, their son, Max Joseph, became Elector of Bavaria. His sister Maria Antonia Walburga married Friedrich Christian of Saxony (d. 1763). Christian of Saxony’s sister, Maria Anna (1728-1797) married Max Joseph. Christian of Saxony’s daughter, who is also the daughter of Max Joseph’s sister, and also named Maria Amalia (1757-1831) married Charles II August, the heir presumptive of Charles Theodore. Maria Antonia and Christian (Elector Saxony)’s son, Friedrich (1750-1827), who was a child when his father died, becomes Elector of Saxony in 1763, and in 1769, he marries Charles August’s sister. Charles August marries Friedrich’s sister in 1774.

So Joseph, Archduke of Austria, while trying to abscond with Bavaria, runs into not only Max Joseph’s widow, Maria Anna, but Max Joseph’s sister, Maria Antonia, and the other Maria Amalia (1757-1831), who has married the man he is trying to finagle out of an inheritance.Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:46, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I see the problem. :) But the above does say that Maria Amalia, 1701-1756, daughter of Joseph I, was the wife of Charles VII (= Elector Charles of Bavaria).

Note that in the article, Charles, Prince Elector and Duke of Bavaria is piped to Charles VII, Holy Roman Emperor.

So the article currently says, [[Charles VII, Holy Roman Emperor|Charles, Prince Elector and Duke of Bavaria]], claimed the German territories of the Habsburg dynasty as a son-in-law of [[Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor]], and presented himself as Charles VI's legitimate Imperial successor.<ref name="Dill4950" /> Charles of Bavaria's claim to the crown reflected the genealogical raison d'état. If women were going to inherit, he claimed, then he should be first in line; his wife, Maria Amalia, was the sister of Charles VI and Joseph I, Holy Roman Emperor, and daughter of Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor.

So if we do mean Charles VII, I still think we've got him marrying the wrong Maria Amalia, as per your quote above, and claiming the wrong father-in-law. :) --JN466 18:48, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done --JN466 21:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Jayen466

Would it be possible to make more obvious to the reader that "Charles II August, Duke of Zweibrücken" and the "third contender, Charles August, of the House of Palatinate-Zweibrücken-Birkenfeld" are the same person? --JN466 23:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)  Done --JN466 21:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Comments from Malleus Fatuorum

I'm only going to address what I see as prose issues here. I've already raised the issues I have with image captions and citations on the review page.

Deal-maker

• "The lessons his mother learned upon her ascension had not been lost on him." Ascension is what saints do, accession is what monarchs do.

• "For most of Joseph's adult life, the strengthening of this influence in German-speaking lands was a keystone of his foreign policy." What influence? The previous few sentences talked about the family's need for support, not its influence.

• "... even such strategic counties as Bukovina". Was Bukovian ever a "county" in the sense we would understand that term today?

territory?

• "With this in mind, in 1765 the Archduke had married Max Joseph's sister ...". With what in mind?

reworded.

• "With this in mind, in 1765 the Archduke had married Max Joseph's sister, with the intent of using the marriage to claim the Electorate for his own offspring". With ... with.

Heir presumptive

• "Unbeknownst to either Joseph or Charles Theodore ...". Unbeknownst?

unknown

What is wrong with "unbeknownst"? If we say "Unknown to either Joseph or Charles Theodore, Max Joseph's widow Maria Anna Sophia of Saxony opened secret negotiations", this is ambiguous (it might mean that Maria Anna Sophia was unknown to Joseph and Charles, whereas we want to say that the secret negotiations occurred without these gentlemen's knowledge). If "unbeknownst" strikes you as archaic (it doesn't strike me that way), we could use "unbeknown to ..."

(Checking Websters 9th NCD and Collins English Dictionary, neither marks "unbeknownst" as "dated", although Collins marks it "esp. British".) Present-day usage of unbeknownst in mainstream press: [1] --JN466 19:04, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

• "Charles August was also no great admirer of Joseph's." What is "also" telling the reader here?

didn't like him to start with, before Joseph tried to snatch his inheritance. I reworded.

• "She had been quite content to take him, but Joseph and their mother insisted she marry instead the better connected Duke of Parma." So Joseph and the Archduchess Maria Amalia had the same mother?

yes, that is what is meant by As a younger man, he had sought the hand of Joseph's sister, Archduchess Maria Amalia. She had been quite content to take him, but Joseph and their mother insisted she marry instead the better connected Duke of Parma.

• "By 1779, the reigning Elector, Frederick Augustus I of Saxony, had married Charles August's own sister." As opposed to someone else's sister? Why "own sister"?

reworded.

Interested parties

• Really not fond of the gallery in this section.

suggestion? The section is too short to put the portraits in the margins, and I like their use, because it puts faces to the names of Joseph's opposition.

• "The French foreign minister, Charles Gravier, comte de Vergennes, maintained deep-seated hostility to the Austrians that pre-dated the alliance of 1756 ...". What did he have against Austrians that pre-date the alliance of 1756?

they were Austrians....therefore not to be trusted.

Tensions rise

• "... and shooting "Long Live our Elector Charles Theodore." Interesting trick, how did they manage to do that?

good point. fixed.