Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Bog turtle/archive1

Resolved comments (Ucucha)

(Moved – Ucucha 20:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC))

• Lead: "1700s" is ambiguous, could mean 1700–1709 as well as 1700–1799

• The taxonomy section begins with "The bog turtle was first described in the 18th century [...]," I can change the sentence in the lead to match this, just let me know :-)--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 19:09, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• "In 1801, Johann David Schoepf categorized Muhlenberg's discovery as Testudo muhlenbergii, in Muhlenberg's honor."—source says 1792 and does not mention that it was named after Muhlenberg. Why don't you cite the original description?

• I can't read that, I changed the year and removed the unreferenced bit.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 19:00, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• "Wood turtle" should be linked somewhere in the "Taxonomy" section.

• I thought things were linked the first time they appear, than never again after that?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 18:31, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• I always link things once in the lead and once in the body, but if you wish to do it differently, no objection from me. Ucucha 18:47, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• "A fully grown bog turtle (regardless of gender) is 7.6 to 11 centimeters (3.0 to 4.3 in) long, making it one of the smallest turtles in the world."—doesn't belong with the rest of the paragraph, which is about sexual dimorphism.

• Changed and re-cited.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 18:43, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• "Young juveniles"—sounds awkward.

• "Young" removed.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 18:45, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• Is there no information on other aspects of anatomy, like skeletal anatomy?

• I'm open for source suggestions (I can't seem to dig up anything about that)--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 13:46, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

• Could the list of states be converted into something more readable? Also, the map doesn't show it extending into Vermont, and does show that it occurs in Tennessee.

• Not quite sure who corrected this, but it has been done.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 02:42, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

• On the map, I somehow doubt that bog turtles live on the western margin of Long Island, in the middle of New York City.

• Changed.NYMFan69-86 (talk) 02:44, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

• "These individuals make their home in states as far north as Connecticut and Massachusetts"—on the map, the northernmost population is in upstate New York. Also, where did Vermont go?

• A request has been put in here to change the map to more resemble the image in the following article: ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/WHMI/WEB/pdf/TechnicalLeaflets/bog_turtle_Oct%2023.pdf

• I have no way of editing the map myself.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 19:52, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• I may be wrong about this, but as that article is authored by Erika T. Smith of the Natural Resources Conservation Service, specifically in her capacity as "an officer or employee of the U.S. government as part of that person's official duties" (see here), doesn't that put the original image in the public domain? The USDA's website says most material there is PD, save where otherwise indicated. The linked article doesn't say anything about copyright, so perhaps it could be used directly. If you're unsure, I recommend asking Jappalang, who has a good head for this kind of thing. Steve ^T • C 21:30, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• [1] and the PDF itself do say that the NRCS produces these leaflets together with the Wildlife Habitat Council, which is not a U.S. government organization. That would suggest the leaflet may not be public domain, but I'm not quite sure. How do you know that Smith works for the NRCS? Ucucha 21:38, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• Other works by the author, some of which aren't co-credited to the WHC. It's ... implied rather than said outright, admittedly, which is why I added the "I may be wrong about this" caveat. :-) Steve ^T • C 21:45, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• Erika Smith is not a NRCS employee. She is with the WHC;[2] "Erika T. Smith, Wildlife Habitat Council" as evident in the credits of the leaflet for Sharp-tailed Goose,[3] and as a judge of ski resorts' environmental efforts.[4] The material of the bog turtle leaflet, as such, could be copyrighted to the WHC. Jappalang (talk) 02:49, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

• Okay, thank you.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 02:52, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

• The map has been changed, it doesn't include that part of Long Island and has a smidgen of coloration in Vermont (as per the aforementioned source).--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 02:42, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

• The text about the southern population does mention Tennessee.

• "The southern population is much smaller in number, living in the states of North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and Tennessee."--I don't know if this was changed after your comment or not however.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 19:11, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• Proceeded to add a citation.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 19:16, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Condensing issues on distribution: Shiels (2007) says it also occurs in Kentucky. The text of this article says the southern population occurs in NC, SC, GA, and TN, but the map shows it extending into southern Virginia. The list of states where the turtle has been found (now relegated to a footnote) does not include Tennessee, even though the map shows it occurs there and the text about the southern population says the same. The map does not show a distribution inside Ohio and Vermont, where the text says it does occur. I know all this is probably caused by uncertainty and contradictions in the sources themselves, but I don't think it's a good idea to handle that by having an article that contradicts itself. Ucucha 13:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

• Irvingtonian is not "early Pleistocene".

• "Irvingtonian" has been removed.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 18:51, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• Don't we know how the northern and southern populations developed?

• This is somewhat covered in the Evolutionary History section, encroaching glaciers from the north pushed the population south and receding glaciers allowed some to populate their previous habitat. Maybe they just don't like Virginia!--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 19:07, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

More to follow. Ucucha 15:27, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

• I added a citation to a book about North American turtles for taxonomy ([5]), which appears to have quite a bit more about behavior than is in the article. Ucucha 12:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

• Indeed, some good info has been added, thanks!--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 13:36, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

• Animal Diversity Web is not a reliable source—it's written by college students, and can't guarantee its own accuracy.

• Thanks, this has been brought up before, I didn't have the time to get around to removing it, and than I forgot about it. I removed as many as I could (I am unsure of how to remove the one from the "note").--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 20:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

• All ADW sources have been removed.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 19:54, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

• "The bog turtle spends a great deal of the day basking."—is there a way to combine this with the previous sentence?

• Reworded.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 20:34, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

• "The Bronx Zoo houses several turtles 35 years old or more, the oldest known bog turtles."—if they are the oldest, how do we know maximum lifespan is >50 years?

• Added "perhaps," which was in the source (should have been added before).--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 20:37, 4 May 2010 (UTC)