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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Xa Loi Pagoda raids

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Xa Loi Pagoda raids

edit

Attacks on Buddhist temples in South Vietnam, August 21, 1963 by Army of the Republic of Vietnam Special Forces. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 02:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • The dates should be delinked.
  • Is there any more information on the construction of the pagoda, and why it was built?
  • The prose in the "Construction" section is a little awkward and could do with a rewrite.
  • Who is/was the "Most Venerable Thich Khanh Anh"?
  • The final sentence in the "Raids" section requires a citation.
  • Cite #1 requires an access date.

Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:23, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

sorry, I entered the title. It should be the attacks not the actual building. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 03:44, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Lol, disregard my comments then. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:51, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support

  • In the lead, 'the Xa Loi Pagoda, the largest in the capital Saigon' is repeated twice, and could do with replacing/rewording.
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'thereby causing those not in the know to blame the army for the violence' - 'Not in the know' is rather awkward and could be phrased better.
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Over 1,400 Buddhists were arrested, and the death toll and missing people that resulted is estimated to be up to hundreds.' - This could be phrased better at the end.
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not entirely clear from the lead why the raids were launched, apart from discrediting the Army - was it to arrest all Buddhist leaders, or simply to cow the Buddhist majority?
Explained YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Additionally, the distribution of firearms to village self-defense militias intended to repel Vietcong guerrillas saw weapons only given to Catholics, with Buddhists in the army being denied promotion if they refused to convert to Catholicism.[' - wikilink Vietcong, and swap the sentence around so it links up with the previous one - ie Buddihists being denied promotions, then distribution of firearms.
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'The objective of the protests was to have Decree Number 10 repealed, as well as implementing religious equality' - Seems a little odd, would suggest '...and to have religious equality implemented.'
changed. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'At the time, Ngo Dinh Nhu, the younger brother of President Ngo Dinh Nhu, who was his main confidant and regarded as the real power behind the Ngo family' - I thought Diem was President?
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Nhu said that if the Buddhist crisis was no resolved, then he would stage a coup, demolish Xa Loi in two hours, and head a new anti-Buddhist government' - Simple spelling error there :)
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'In the meantime, the Army of the Republic of Vietnam Special Forces, commanded by Colonel Le Quang Tung, who took his orders directly from Nhu and not the senior generals, brought two more of his battalions into Saigon' - Why did he do this? And why were two battalions already in Saigon? Background would be good here.
It's in the sentence immediately afterwards that the SF were actually used to attack dissidents and protect against a coup rather than for fighting. YellowMonkey

(click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I see; I'd suggest swapping the sentences around, so it makes a bit more sense.
  • 'The attendance had approximately tripled since the previous rally last Sunday' - 'The previous Sunday' sounds better
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'The Buddhists declined to march to and demonstrate in front of government institutions such as Gia Long Palace' - Why not - what decisions were made?
Well, the sources just says that they chose not to, and the writer (Halberstam) speculated why in the next sentence, which is quoted YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Swapping the sentences again might be better, to make it floe more easily and logically.
  • 'They presented their request to impose martial law and discussed how to disperse the monks form organizing protests in Saigon' - Spelling error.
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'The martial law orders were authorized with the signature of Don, who had no idea that military action was to occur in the early hours of August 21 without his knowledge' - Poorly worded, and why did he have no idea if he was one of the seven generals?
clarified that he had no idea about Nhu pulling it off with his own men disguised as ARVN. The ARVN hadn't actually made a plan yet. In the next sentence it says that the martial law was a ruse to stage a coup but Nhu foxed him YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, thats fine now I think.
  • 'Dinh was the only general who was given advance notice of the raids' - Why was this? And who gave him advanced warning? And if he was one of the seven, surely he would know the raids were to occur?
Per above. The others hadn't made a proper plan, they tried to use martial law as a trick but got tricked themselves. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent
  • 'When they came, the raids were not unexpected, and the Buddhists had prepared themselves for the attacks, as were the media' - 'As was the media - and how were they prepared?
reowrded. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'The pagodas were locked in preparation for the attacks and the monks had prepared themselves for it.' - How had they prepared other than locking the pagodas?
Barricading them with stuff, nailing wood acroos it. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'In the afternoon, trucks of soldiers were seen heading past the media offices' - What media offices?
the journalists...they saw them YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'The gong of the pagoda was drowned out by the burst of automatic weapons fire, the sound of exploding grenades, battering rams, shattering glass and human screaming.[50] The military personnel shouted as they attacked, as did the occupants, in fear' - This, and much of this entire section, is very sensationalist and unencyclopedic, and needs to be toned down and rewritten; there's also a lot of almost list-like sentence of weapons carried, which seems excessive.
Reworded. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers for that, much better now.
  • 'Nhu's men vandalized the main altar and managed to confiscate the intact charred heart of Thich Quang Duc, the monk who had self-immolated in protest against the policies of the regime. The Buddhists managed to escape with a receptacle with the remainder of his ashes' - Repetition of 'managed'
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'The crowd then fought the heavily armed military personnel under the direct control of the Ngo family' - You've already stated they were controlled by the Ngo family.
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'The United States became immediately embroiled in the attacks following the escape of the two monks over the back wall into the adjacent US Operations Mission buildin' - Needs to be made clear this is in Saigon
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Later, General Dinh held a press conference in which he accused the Americans of trying to launch a coup in South Vietnam and took credit for the raids, although Tung was the main military officer in charge' - Too many uses of 'Later', such as here; when was this exactly?
Not explained clearly, but within a week, because he went on leave after that. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Righto, not your fault if the sources aren't specific enough.
  • 'On the surface, the driving force behind the government assault on the Buddhists appeared to come from senior military commanders acting without consulting civilians' - By civilians I presume you mean the government?
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'The army also contained substantial numbers of majority Buddhists' - Majority Buddhists is not great English, reword please
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Kim had also had his own meeting with Rufus Phillips at the US embassy. He bitterly confided that Nhu had tricked the army into imposing martial law and becoming his "puppet".[70] Kim asserted that Dinh, Don and the other generals were not aware of the raids in advance. Kim revealed that the arms and explosives that Nhu asserted were found in the pagodas were planted' - Repetition of 'Kim' here.
Done. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'The pagoda raids stoked widespread public disquiet in the previously apolitical Saigon public' - How can this be? Earlier you said there had been a great deal of protesting by the South Vietnamese.
changed to "usually", ie, before 1963 YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Diem decided that the students,[71] not usually known for political activism,[72] would be allowed to protest' - Why?
He said he wanted to let the students air their opinions - no reason given, probably to look democratic, but obviously it backfired and he put them in jail YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Again, good, not your fault if the sources are vague
  • Needs a good copy-edit, especially with spelling errors appearing in several places.
Checked the spelling. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't opposed, but I'm close to it; there are quite a few problems with this article - it is often unencyclopedic and dramatic, and there is a lack of vital background information which needs to be included.

What other background info are you looking for? YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think once you've rerranged a few sentences as I've indicated, I'll be ready to support - excellent work! Skinny87 (talk) 13:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I reorded the two things and managed to find the press confrence date in anotehr book. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:03, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Great work, I've moved to support! Skinny87 (talk) 20:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I've fixed a number of minor linking, grammatical, and spelling errors which I found in it, and it is ready for A-Class. My main suggestion at this point is that you add more images, there are only two outside the infobox, and even if there aren't any of the events at least some of the major people that are mentioned in the article would be nice. – Joe N 21:49, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done, YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 00:17, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the second paragraph under Raids:Saigon, one of the sentences reads, "In the afternoon, trucks of soldiers were seen by the journalists as they headed the offices of media outlets, heading for An Quang Pagoda." Could you clarify what this means?
  • Also, this sentence in the last paragraph of the "Martial law and riots" section is unclear- "The Voice of America announced that Chuong had resigned in protest, but this was denied by Saigon, which asserted that they were sacked."
  • The LBJ/Nhu image doesn't clearly state why it is public domain. Does the book clearly state that the photo is official US government? If so, it needs to say that on the image file page. Cla68 (talk) 07:02, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dealt with these, I hope. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 00:09, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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