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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/List of battleships of France

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Kges1901 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 15:20, 22 August 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

List of battleships of France edit

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Nominator(s): Parsecboy (talk)

List of battleships of France (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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With WP:OMT closing in on completion, you're going to see more of these lists being put together ;) This one covers the battleships built by France between the late 1880s and the 1940s, from the early experimental vessels built during a muddled period of French naval philosophy to some pretty cutting-edge thinking in the interwar period with the Dunkerques and Richelieus. The French portion of the project is nearly complete, so once this list passes ACR (and FLC), we'll have our second major navy completed (or third, if Japan beats France across the finish line). Thanks to all who review the list! Parsecboy (talk) 12:53, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5 edit

I'd love to eat some popcorn here until the race end. I'll do this one tomorrow. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 23:13, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • cancelled v. canceled.
  • Naval to counter growing German naval strength Pipe German with Imperial Germany.
    • Done
  • to counter the German and Italian fleets Pipe German and Italian with Nazi Germany and the Kingdom of Italy.
    • Done
  • by introducing a number of innovations Replace "a number of" with "some".
    • That doesn't seem like an improvement to me
  • were to be built over the course of the program Remove "over the course of" with throughout.
    • Done
  • 1897–1898 Greek uprising on Crete against Is there a link for the uprising?
    • No - the closest we have is the background section at Cretan State, but even that mostly skips over the rebellion and covers the international response to it.
  • was designed by Victor Saglio Link of Saglio?
    • I can add a red link, but we don't have a bio on him
  • Try to round "33.0 km/h" in the "Carnot" table.
    • Yeah, I knew you wouldn't like that - the only way to do it is to either round the mph figure to 21 or everything to two decimal places, and "17.8 knots (32.97 km/h; 20.48)" seems excessive
  • She suffered a number of minor accidents Remove "a number of" with "several".
    • Done
  • albeit of an experimental 45-caliber (cal.) It's odd to see the short form of calibre. I never saw you using it. The calibre's article even doesn't mention the short form?
    • It's a common abbreviation
  • evacuated the Allied army that Link Allied here.
    • Done
  • Dardanelles campaign v. Gallipoli campaign. And if we use Gallipoli campaign then we shouldn't capitalise campaign.
  • @Parsecboy: Yes, maybe it was meant to be, but the Dardanelles campaign's link goes to the Gallipoli campaign article. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:50, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hey BB it looks like this comment isn't addressed or has a counter-reply. Just a little reminder I was already wondering when this one would be addressed? Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 09:47, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah, I guess I wasn't clear in my initial reply - I fixed the link. Parsecboy (talk) 11:52, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a little error in the File:French_battleship_Bouvet_NH_64442.tif image.
    • I'm not sure what you mean
  • I guess me and PM do not see the picture unless you click on the template. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:53, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • within the 11,000-ton limit It's odd to see an "11,000-ton" here. Wich kind of "ton"?
    • It's already specified earlier in that paragraph
  • they were joined by Saint Louis the next year Link Saint Louis here.
    • Done
  • were moved to the North Sea in 1909 Link North Sea here.
    • Done
  • In the "Charlemagne class" table Saint Louis' fate it states "Broken up, 1933" But its article says "25 April 1933" instead of just 1933.
    • Yeah, but that's just the date she was sold
  • In the same table this time in the Gaulois' "Commissioned". It states "23 October 1899" but its articles says "15 January 1899"?
    • Fixed

More to come. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:17, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • In the Iéna table at "Fate" it was destroyed in 1907. Its article says it was destroyed on 12 March 1907, maybe we need to add the specific date in the table.
    • Good point
  • Also shouldn't the other tables have a specific date?
    • Added where appropriate
  • was ultimately scrapped in 1967.[98][99][89] Reorder the refs.
    • Fixed
  • French considered a scaled up version Scaled up needs a hyphen.
    • Done
@CPA-5: - Now that you're back, did you have more comments to add? Parsecboy (talk) 11:31, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hey BB, happy to see you again. I just add some comments here these are anything that I got. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 13:28, 16 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No worries, looks great. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 09:06, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM edit

This list is looking good. A few comments:

  • "By the end of the decade, the British"
    • Fixed
  • link Jean Bart in the lead?
    • Done
  • I suggest an introductory note after the lead explaining what armor (I assume belt) and displacement (I assume oa) are being used in the tables, assuming it is being handled consistently
  • suggest linking long tons in the Brennus table
    • Done
  • suggest link=on in the power conversion of the Brennus table to link kW
    • Done
  • "each other in other details" could you vary the wording here? in lesser details?
    • Lesser works for me
  • ihl is in full and overlinked in the Jauréguiberry table
    • Good catch
  • both the main and secondary batteries of Masséna were the 1893 guns, suggest mentioning this in the prose section, which currently just says the 305 mm ones
    • Good idea
  • ihp is overlinked in the Masséna table
    • Fixed
  • something odd going on with the Bouvet pic
    • CPA said the same thing, but it's displaying fine to me
  • "pronounced tumblehome that characterized many French warships of the period" I think you've already covered the issues with the tumblehome above
    • Removed
  • probably link Gaulois at first mention, under Bouvet
    • Done
  • drop the comma from " the following year, she was transferred"
    • Done
  • link Dardanelles in the Bouvet section
    • Done
  • metric hp and ihp are overlinked in the Bouvet table
    • Fixed

Down to Charlemagne class. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:13, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • link Charlemagne at first mention, in the Charlemagne class section, also Saint Louis and Suffren in that section
    • Done
  • in the Charlemagne class table, what is 14,500 CV? expand and link?
    • CV is the French abbreviation for metric horsepower - have added an explanatory note to this effect
      • The template works if you use PS, which is the official abbreviation for metric horsepower outside of cheval-powered France.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:14, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "apart from a collision with a torpedo boat off Toulon in 1906 that resulted in the latter's sinking"
    • Fixed
  • "The wreck was repaired to make her watertight"
    • Good catch
  • suggest "the armor layout onof the hull"
    • I'm going to say that was a typo ;)
  • "shipyard in before work"
    • Fixed
  • link Démocratie at first mention in the Suffren section
    • Done
  • I'd mention in the prose that it was U-52 that sank Suffren
    • Done
  • "1898 Naval Law"→" German 1898 Naval Law"
    • Good catch
  • link Liberté class when first mentioned in the République class section
    • Done
  • link Danton-class when first mentioned in the République class section
    • Done
  • link République and Patrie when first mentioned in the République class section
    • Done - you'd think I'd have paid closer attention to this when I was writing the list, but...
  • link Liberté, Justice, and Vérité when first mentioned in the Liberté class section
    • Done

Down to Danton class. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:33, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • "construction of the Liberté"
    • Fixed
  • suggest "that Japan's success"→"that Japanese success"
    • Works for me
  • the sentence beginning "As a result, the navy decided..." is too long, suggest breaking it
    • Done
  • link Mirabeau, Danton, Vergniaud and Condorcet when first mentioned in the Danton class section
    • Done
  • perhaps mention in the prose of the Danton class section that it saw the introduction of the new Modele 1906 guns
    • Good idea
  • "by four 305 mm turrets"
    • Good catch
  • link France, Jean Bart, Courbet and Paris when first mentioned in the Courbet class subsection
    • Done
  • link Bretagne, Provence and Lorraine when first mentioned in the Bretagne class subsection
    • Done
  • suggest "with a pair of twin-turrets superfiring above them"→"each with a twin-turret superfiring above them"
    • That sounds better to me
  • link Béarn when first mentioned in the Normandie class subsection
    • Done
  • "hte vessels"
    • Fixed

Down to Fast battleships. More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:54, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • link Dunkerque and Strasbourg when first mentioned in the Dunkerque class subsection
    • Done
  • link Richelieu or Jean Bart when first mentioned in the Richelieu class subsection
    • Done

That's it from me. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:23, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks PM Parsecboy (talk) 16:42, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:35, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest scaling up the Alsace illustration
    • I dunno, to make the text legible the image would have to be gigantic - I might just upload a different version with the text removed.
  • File:Justice_1909_LOC_det_4a16114.jpg: why is this believed to be in the public domain?
    • It was gifted to the LOC in 1949, apparently, and the LOC states there are no known restrictions
  • File:Alsace.svg: what is the source of the data presented in this illustration? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:48, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Have asked the uploader, who is still active. Parsecboy (talk) 13:31, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Apparently he used an online source that is no longer up, but the illustrations conform to the sketches and details in Jordan & Dumas' book, so I've added that to the description page. Parsecboy (talk) 23:38, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

  • Both editions of Brassey's Naval Annual have the same OCLC#
    • Would they be different? That OCLC isn't to a specific volume
      • I keep forgetting that most annuals don't get their own number for each volume.
  • The ISBN for Friedman is for the Seaforth edition. This one is just going to continue to bite both of us in the ass.
    • Fixed
  • Why is Roberts worth noting in Ropp?
    • Per my comment of the Kaiser Friedrich III review, Roberts took Ropp's unpublished dissertation and turned it into the book (and having watched somebody edit an unpublished work into a book, that's no small task ;) )
  • Citations are properly formatted
  • References are high-quality RS--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:44, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Sturm. Parsecboy (talk) 11:40, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Good to go.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:44, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Sturmvogel_66 edit

  • Where are the cites for the lede?
    • Not necessary, as it's all covered in the body - I stopped doing that with lists ages ago, get with the program ;)
  • late 1900s specify that you mean the first decade of the century, not sometime in the 1980s
    • Reworded
  • Dunkerque was later scuttled there with her sister ship Strasbourg when the French scuttled the fleet Proximity alert!
    • Good catch
  • Brennus was the first pre-dreadnought battleship of the French Navy built in the late 19th century Delink French Navy, otherwise awkward as it implies that predreadnoughts were built at other times. And watch for redundancy with the lede
    • Reworded
  • Link scrap(ped) on first use
    • Done
  • A lot heavier on the background details of the designs than I think is optimal. Why are you giving architect's names in the ship sections? That's hardly summarizing things, IMO. Your German BB list does a better job, I think, in summarizing the ships' service and backgrounds.
    • In my mind, one of the things the list should do is trace design histories over time, which is something you can't do in individual class articles - at most you'd talk about how the previous design influenced the next. And that's one of the reasons I included the designers, so the reader sees the same individuals popping up over the course of the construction programs. Parsecboy (talk) 11:56, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm going to stop here so we can discuss this.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:33, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • the weight reduction was to be achieved be returning to twin-turrets for the main battery. I don't understand.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:18, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Spelled out more clearly
  • Tell the reader that Iéna was refloated for use as a target ship
    • Good idea
  • years conducting training to prepare the crews I think that that last bit is rather redundant.
    • Removed
  • What was actually done to the Dunkerques as part of this demilitarization? I think that it was pretty nominal for the overseas-based ships.
    • Good point - they hadn't actually done much before the British arrived
  • Good work.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:18, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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