Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Brazilian battleship Minas Geraes
- The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Promoted –Abraham, B.S. (talk) 01:11, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Brazilian battleship Minas Gerais edit
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An early dreadnought, Minas Gerais did virtually nothing of note after the "Revolt of the Whip" and so there is little information on the ship. However, I believe that I have the most comprehensive article on the ship that is on the web. Note: I am aware that there are a couple of stories in Spanish about Minas Gerais and her sister on the Brazilian Navy's website, but as they don't entirely match up with the information in the other sources I used, I have not used any information from the stories. This passed GA after a review from Bellhalla (talk · contribs). —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 01:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Issues Resolved
- Comments - from the top, in my usual style:
- Infobox and Lead
- In "Displacement", could you specify whether those are long tons, short tons, tonnes?
- Do you know the breakdown of her crew (officers/crewmen)?
- For the armament, do you know what the arrangement of the main guns was (4X3, 6X2)?
- Where was she built (Sao Paulo, Rio)?
- Minas Gerais, named after the province of the same name, the use of "named" and "name" in the same sentence is awkward, is there another word you could use?
- She was the lead ship of her class of two, "of two" is unnecessary.
- Soon after joining the Navy, Minas Gerais was the focal point of the "Revolt of the Whip", where members of the crew threatened to bombard the Brazilian capital of Rio de Janeiro if certain demands were not met. - what year was this? Put it right in the lead
- only one six-pounder shot was fired, and São Paulo then sailed for Montevideo, where the mutineers made their escape. Again, awkward wording. Consider "only one six-pounder shot was fired, before São Paulo sailed for Montevideo, where the mutineers made their escape". As another thing, which ship fired the shot?
- Minas Gerais was not involved in much action after that - there's gotta be a more eloquent way of saying this.
- she was inactive for most of the rest of her career - awkward. Consider rewording "she was relatively inactive for the rest of her career"
- Background
- By 1900, Brazil had fallen to the third largest South American naval power behind Chile and Argentina. - the use of "fallen" makes it sound as though it was defeated by the third largest naval power. Consider "By 1900, Brazil's maritime development had fallen to third in South America, behind Chile and Argentina." or something to that effect (OSTTE)
- This was due to the revolution of 1889, in which Deodoro da Fonseca deposed Pedro II of Brazil and the navy had fallen in disrepair—indeed, the navy was comprised of only two coastal defense battleships and two cruisers in 1900. just doesn't flow, I'm not sure how to fix it.
- Some of the extra money gained from this economic growth was used to finance the Building Programme of 1904; - do we know how much (percentage, rough estimates)?
- For the measurements of the gun barrels and armour, could you use a convert template so both inches and cm are displayed? I know, it's a metric-conversion anal-retentive thing, but it's considered standard.
- After this was completed, a new contract was made up and signed on 20 February 1907. - "made up" just doesn't seem right; "formulated" perhaps?
- The ships shocked Brazil's neighbors, especially Argentina, as the dreadnoughts from Brazil "outclassed the entire Argentinian fleet." - the use of "Brazil" twice in the same sentence makes for really awkward wording, consider "the ships shocked Brazil's neighbors, notably Argentina, as the Brazilian dreadnoughts 'outclassed the entire Argentinian fleet.'", OSTTE
- Brazil's order meant that they laid down a dreadnought before other, more traditional, powers like Germany - the commas in the middle really break it up, could it possibly be reworded "Brazil's order meant that they laid down a dreadnought before many of the other major maritime powers, such as Germany", OSTTE
- At that time, it was technically the British Empire, not the UK.
- Early career
- Could this section and the next be combined, they just don't seem long enough to be split up.
- Soon after, the prosperity which had marked the rise in Brazil's status was reversing, and a depression hit the Brazilian economy hard;[1] this coupled with British naval mutinies over pay cuts,[10] racism prevalent in all branches of the Brazilian armed forces,[11] and the severe discipline enforced upon Brazilian ships spawned a mutiny from the sailors on the most powerful ships in Brazil's fleet, called the "Revolt of the Whip".[10][11] - I know people who can run a mile in the time it takes me to say that sentence, it needs to be broken up into smaller manageable bits.
- "Revolt of the Whip"
- Minas Gerais, unhappy with their treatment, began planning an uprising earlier in 1910 - what aspects of their treatment, the pay? The conditions? The racism? The benefits? The dental?
- However, in mid-November, a sailor was sentenced to be flogged 250[12] times in front of his fellow sailors,[11] even though the practice had been banned by law;[10] when the punishment was administered, it was not stopped even when he fainted.[11] - period following "after law" please.
- Could a bit more detail be gone into concerning the bill that "reversed the amnesty"?
- his, and the possibility of the capital being bombarded,[11] forced the Congress of Brazil to give into the demands of the rebels,[11] which included the abolition of flogging, the improvement of living conditions, and the granting of amnesty from the government.[10] - you sure you're not having an affair with long sentences?
- First World War
- However, the war had crushing effects on Brazil's economy, as prices for both rubber and coffee plummeted: the war had no need for rubber and the United Kingdom allowed no coffee into Europe with its import policy (the space occupied by coffee could be used for more "essential items") and its blockade of the mainland. - you know that I'm going to say, right?
- Do you have a number for how many Brazilian merchantships were sunk during the war?
- Other than that, looks good
- Inter-war period
- Hold on a second. If her boilers failed, how did she return to Rio?
- Which turrets are "B and X"? What did the other turrets receive?
- However, São Paulo was only able to sway a geriatric torpedo boat to her cause; frustrated, her crew fired a six-pounder shot into her sister which wounded one sailor.[19][20] - period after "cause".
- What was the gun angle before the modernization?
- The guns were also overhauled during this; two extra 4.7-in. guns were added (making 14 total), and six 20-mm. were installed, - the use of "during this" is too awkward. During this what? Add the word "modernization" and it'll be perfect
- Second World War and later career
- Does the date where the declaration took effect really need to be there?
- it's for context. Would anyone in the Northern Hemisphere know when Brazil declared war?
- The first sentence is too short to be its own paragraph
- Did anything of interest happen in Salvador? I know that Montevideo was visited by a German pocket battleship in the early war, anything of the like happen w/ Brazil (U-Boat raids, etc)?
- Does the date where the declaration took effect really need to be there?
all the best, Cam (Chat) 04:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the review. I believe that I have addressed all of your comments! —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 00:21, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. I echo many of Cam's comments above, plus:
- "UK" should not be written as "U.K."
- "coupled with British naval mutinies over pay cuts" - what does this have to do with the Brazilian fleet?
- "who immediately sped up their timetable" - is there a more elegant way of saying this?
- "After murdering a few officers" - use of "a few" makes it sound like a trival action to my ear, "several" would be better, an exact figure best. Also, can you name the captain?
- "on the ship" - ship used too frequently, try "kept on board" or similar.
- "they could not do much to stop the mutineers" - much, or anything at all? Be clear.
- "The government did give them official pardons and a statement of regret, but a decree was passed on the 28th that many considered to reverse the amnesty" - firstly, use "28 November" instead of "28th". Secondly, what does this mean? Did they arrest people for the mutiny (in which case the amnesty was reversed) or didn't they (in which case it seems to have held).
- "war was declared on the 25th" as above, give the month.
- "sailed out of the harbor and sailed to" - second "sailed" is redundant
Otherwise good, --Jackyd101 (talk) 06:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe that these have all been addressed. I have no name for the captain, by the way. Cheers, —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 00:14, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments No problems reported with external links. Two disambig links need to be found and if at all possible fixed. TomStar81 (Talk) 15:56, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. A few changes.
- Why would the design changes after Dreadnaught make it so that only two could be built?
- How does the world not need rubber during WWI? I know it wasn't as vital as it was in WWII, but still, trucks, guns? Surely war would use a lot of rubber.
- Please clarify so it doesn't seem like only the US and Germany are at war in WWI.
- The bit about San Paulo's boilers failing confuses me, did they fail on the trip, and if so why did they fail then, and not during the training exercises she had presumably undergone?
- Otherwise looks good, a fun read - I never knew that Brazil had battleships. – Joe N 21:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Gold had been discovered in Minas Gerais in the 1700s, was there another gold rush or something similiar that pumped some extra money into the government's coffers to help pay for the ship? Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:04, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Wow, I forgot to reply to your query on the talk page; my apologies. I don't know what exactly happened; all I know is that Conway's 1906–1921 on p. 403 says this:
Brazil entered the twentieth century with high aspirations. The country was in an era of prosperity. Brazil controlled the world's coffee and rubber markets. Gold had been discovered and offered the hope of great wealth. The political unrest that had occurred in the transition from Empire to Republic seemed to be over. True, problems lay ahead, but it seemed that many had been solved. (emphasis mine)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.