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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Artur Phleps

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Artur Phleps edit

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (send... over)


I am nominating this article for A-Class review because it recently successfully underwent GAN and has subsequently been expanded and enhanced using a number of mainly German language sources. Phleps served in three armies, in two wars, was an SS Corps commander in the Balkans and was posthumously awarded the Oak Leaves to his Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. He was famously photographed with Kurt Waldheim (later UN Secretary-General and President of Austria) during Case Black in Montenegro. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 14:58, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First comments by MisterBee1966, more later

  • I find the image icons next to the awards in the infobox too small to add value, especially for the German Cross. I suggest to remove them here. MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:08, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have removed them. I consider this particular issue an entirely stylistic one, which has no MOS or other guidance to drive it, but I have nevertheless followed your suggestion. Cheers. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 15:42, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was a suggestion, not a show stopper by any means, nor based on guidance. It just reflected my very personal taste, or bad eye sight. :-) MisterBee1966 (talk) 16:46, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I just ordered "Totenkopf und Edelweiß: General Artur Phleps und die südosteuropäischen Gebirgstruppen der Waffen-SS 1942-1945" [Skull and Edelweiss: General Artur Phleps and Southeastern European Mountain Troops of the Waffen-SS 1942-1945] ISBN 978-3902475572. I will comment and make suggestions as I read the book. I hope that is okay for you? MisterBee1966 (talk) 16:56, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's great. I'm sure there will be some new material there. I try my best with my rubbish German, but that's one I haven't been able to get access to. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:27, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does the guideline say about capitalization of German words? In German all German nouns such as Oberleutnant, Hauptmann, etc. are always capitalized. I believe that in English military ranks are only capitalized when they are mentioned immediately before the name of the person. The article, as it stands now, is not consistent. It uses lower case German ranks but also upper case German ranks, though they are not immediately followed by the name. I suggest using capitalized German ranks everywhere; at least this reflects the correct German spelling. Opinions? MisterBee1966 (talk) 17:14, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • the relevant guideline is WP:JOBTITLES. It says that ranks are common nouns and as such they are not capitalised, but if the rank is followed by the person's name it is capitalised. Because Waffen-SS ranks combine the use of initialisations like "SS", hyphens and proper nouns like "Waffen-SS" within ranks, it may be that we should adopt your suggestion and use initial caps for the rank in German but then follow the JOBTITLES rule for the English equivalent in parentheses when the rank is first introduced. I'm happy to implement that as a consensus position. I have thought about this rank issue quite a bit recently, and at least this is consistent and explicable to others rather than trying to have an exception for Waffen-SS ranks. The only place where I think the English equivalent should have initial caps (when not in front of the name) is in the infobox. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:27, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I found one case of Kampfgruppe which I changed as well. MisterBee1966 (talk) 04:18, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wonder, and this has nothing to do with this review here, you wrote that he was a confidant of Hube, commander of the 16th Panzer Division. The timing for this seems to coincide with Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz von Groß-Zauche und Camminetz (an article which I have been working on for some time now) assignment to the 16th Panzer Division as well. Have you come across references that Phleps and Strachwitz had contact/communication as well? MisterBee1966 (talk) 04:27, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, I haven't come across Strachwitz in my research of Phleps, although it might be worth looking in Steiner if you have a copy. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:17, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I received the book "Totenkopf und Edelweiß: General Artur Phleps und die südosteuropäischen Gebirgstruppen der Waffen-SS 1942-1945" [Skull and Edelweiss: General Artur Phleps and Southeastern European Mountain Troops of the Waffen-SS 1942-1945]. The book points to "Würfelspiele des Lebens. Vier Porträts bedeutender Siebenbürger: Conrad Haas, Johann Martin Honigberger, Paul Richter, Artur Phleps" ISBN 978-3875380118 which seems to include a more detailed biography of Phleps, which I ordered as well. Nevertheless here some info based on book I have: MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Parents: he was the third son of father Gustav Phleps, mother Sophie, née Stoltz page 96
  • one brother became a doctor, the other a professor in Gdansk/Danzig technical university page 96
  • school: attended evanvangelical Realschule in Hermannstadt page 97
  • family: wife Grete, son Dr. Reinhart Phleps and daughter Irmingard page 111
  • the Oak leaves were handed out by Himmler to his son SS-Obersturmführer on 24 November 1944 page 105
Have added all of the above. Thanks very much! Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:25, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dr. Reinhart Phleps was Bataillonsarzt (doctor of the battalion) in SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgsjäger-Regiment 13, Kaltenegger page 15 MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:44, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I received Bergel's book now. Apparently he acted against direct orders in the battle at the Tisza against forces of Bela Kun during the Hungarian–Romanian war. For this he was court-martialed. However the proceedings concluded that his actions saved the Romanian forces and he was promoted to Oberst. (page 87) MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:15, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • After he published his book on logistics (Servicii si etape / Principiile fundamentale de organizare si functionare), he failed his test to become a general, in exactly those topics on logics in which he was an expert, logistics. (page 88) MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:15, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...but after criticising government policy..." — Bergel (page 89) states that his criticism was done openly by calling the king a lier. MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...but he volunteered for the Waffen-SS instead..." — Bergel says, that the so called "Volksdeutsche", which Phleps was, were not allowed in the Wehrmacht, only the SS accepted them (page 92). Worth checking into?!
    • Great stuff, thanks very much! All added. The Volksdeutsche thing is possible at that early date, but I hadn't heard of it before. I'll look into it, but in the meantime I've included it and attributed it to Bergel. Just wondering if wither of those books have any more info on the first half of 1942 and the dates he might have been promoted to Oberfuhrer and Brigadefuhrer? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:49, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

Lead:

  • This sentence needs revision. During the interwar period he served in the Romanian Army reaching the rank of Generalleutnant (major general) and being an adviser to King Carol until he was sidelined then retired for speaking out against the government. My suggestion: During the interwar period he served in the Romanian Army and reached the rank of Generalleutnant (major general) and also became an adviser to King Carol. After he spoke out against the government, he was sidelined and then forcibly retired from the army.
    • Done, good suggestion.

Between the wars

  • and dismissed from the service in 1941. Slightly inconsistency with the lead, which says he was retired.
    • An error in my German translation I'm afraid, forcibly retired is closer than dismissed. Fixed.

WWII:

  • ...enlisting under his mother's maiden name of Stolz. Do we know when he reverted back to Phleps - I assume his decorations were awarded under his actual name?
    • Good point. When he was appointed to command the 7th SS Division. I've added it.
  • In July 1941 he was awarded the clasp to the Iron Cross (1939) 2nd Class. This is a clasp to the Iron Cross won in WWI? Is that "(1939)" supposed to be there?
    • It's the 1939 clasp to the Iron Cross (1914). Well picked up. I also added that the 1st Class was the 1939 for completeness.
  • Two weeks later, SS-Brigadeführer und Generalmajor der Waffen SS (Brigadier) Phleps... Do we know when he was promoted and what unit he was commanding at the time? (I'm guessing not, but thought it worth checking).
    • Sadly not.
  • ...the two regiments and supporting arms... No antecedence for the two regiments. Does a German division only have two regiments, or was this simply the size of the division at the time?
    • This division only had two regiments. I have changed to "and with its two mountain infantry regiments" for clarity.
  • ...but it was only a limited success. it was - they were.
    • Fixed.
  • No duplicate links
  • No errors found using Citation Error Report
  • I am far from an expert on licencing of images but you might want to check File:Hans Herbert Macholz, Kurt Waldheim, Escola Roncagli, and Artur Phleps in Podgorica, Yugoslavia, 1943.jpg - is the World Jewish Congress really the author?
    • Long story. They were definitely not the original author, as the photograph was taken by the photographic section of the division. However, the people that obtained a copy of it and authenticated it were the WJC. They then published it and encouraged others to do so during the Waldheim affair in the mid-1980's. This version, which is from the Yad Vashem site, was shared with YV by WJC. It has been used extensively in books both with and without credit being given to the WJC (or anyone for that matter). PRODUCER added this one over the top of a NFR image I uploaded. I've gone back to the NFR one.

Zawed (talk) 23:38, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My comments all satisfactorily addressed, so adding my support now. Zawed (talk) 06:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- Boy, judging from the lead image, this guy could have been a stand-in for Hitler at the end of the war...

  • Made my usual copyedit, so pls check I haven't broken anything. One thing I notice as a general point is that you could employ more commas! I've added them as appropriate here but something to consider in future... Anyway, outstanding items:
    • First up, I'm not a big fan of using terms like "highly decorated" in the opening sentence, unless that's solely what made the subject notable. It's a bit like "Oscar-winning" in the first sentence of an actor's bio, which I think is a bit peacock-ish and generally frowned upon in WP.
      • Fair point, have deleted it.
    • Also the opening sentence is a bit long and should probably be split -- you could just drop mention of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves there, since you pick it up at the end of the lead.
      • Done.
    • Phleps was criticised by both NDH and German authorities for the harshness with which the evacuation was carried out. He was awarded the German Cross in Gold on 20 June 1944. -- Hard for me to imagine German authorities in WWII criticising anyone for harshness but I'll take your word for it! I wonder though how that reconciles with receiving an award shortly afterwards -- anything in the sources?
      • They didn't need anything extra to annoy the locals, by this time the Partisans were getting the upper hand.
  • Other than the relatively minor points above, structure, coverage, referencing and supporting materials look okay, though I share Zawed's curiosity re. the Yugoslavia image attribution. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have replaced the image with a NFR one which accurately described the source, author etc. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:39, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Support
    • No dab links [1] (no action req'd).
    • External links all check out [2] (no action req'd).
    • One of the images lacks Alt Text so you might consider adding it for consistency [3] (not an ACR requirement - suggestion only).
    • The Citation Check Tool reveals no issues with reference consolidation (no action req'd).
    • Images are all licenced or have a valid fair use rat and are appropriate for the article (no action req'd).
    • The Earwig Tool reveal no issues with copyright violation or close paraphrasing (only a wiki mirror) [4] (no action req'd).
    • No duplicate links per WP:REPEATLINK (no action req'd).
    • Wording seems a bit off here: "Following promotion to Oberleutnant (first lieutenant) he was successively transferred to the staff of the 13th Infantry...", might this work better as: "Following promotion to Oberleutnant (first lieutenant) he transferred to the staff of the 13th Infantry."
    • "After the war, and the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire...", consider more simply: "After the war the Austro-Hungarian Empire was dissolved..."
    • This seems a little awkward to me: "After recruiting, formation and training in the Banat...", not sure but I think this might work better as: "After recruitment, formation and training in the Banat..." (suggestion only)
    • Otherwise looks good to me. Anotherclown (talk) 12:10, 11 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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