Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2023 June 13
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June 13
editWhich way is up?
editNo, I'm not writing this from the International Space Station, and neither am I having a severe case of vertigo or some kind of metaphysical quandary involving the definitions of spatial directions -- my real and completely down-to-earth (in every sense of the word) question is: on railroads (railways?) in Great Britain, does "up" mean away from London and "down" toward London, or is it the other way around? 2601:646:9882:46E0:6998:C31A:9514:BAA4 (talk) 03:04, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- We've got this! See Rail directions#Up_and_down. HiLo48 (talk) 03:22, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks! Here in the USA I'm used to eastbound and westbound, hence the confusion! 2601:646:9882:46E0:6CB4:4C13:4721:367B (talk) 06:19, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- Does the USA not have any northbound and southbound trains? HiLo48 (talk) 06:30, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- We certainly do, but I don't think "up" or "down" are in such formal usage as compared with the Brits. More likely to just say "inbound" or "outbound". The "up" / "down" does make sense, though. The first line of "It's a Long Way to Tipperary" is "Up to mighty London came an Irish man one day..." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:45, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- Heard some years ago on Tyneside (from a BR employee): "I'm going down to London on the 05:30 up train". Generally Southerners and railways go up to London, from the English Midlands north people go "down" to London, see a map for the reason why! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:02, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- In the USA, trains are not as common. We have the Interstate system as a reference. So, we have the cardinal directions, North, East, South, and West. But, that is not exactly how they are referenced on the navigations signs. They will have the highway number, the direction, and a location of interest. For example, a sign might say "I-70 East St. Louis." Therefore, the use of up and down for going into a city or away from a city is not as common. I've ridden the subway in Chicago, New York and DC. My memory is that they all refer to inbound and outbound, not up and down. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 11:19, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- We do, but we don't use "up" and "down" to refer to northbound or southbound trains. Can't speak for usage by rail enthusiasts or professionals.
- For metro systems within a city, we may use "uptown"/"downtown", which tend to correspond to north/south; for lines that run east/west (and for some north/south lines) we'll refer to them by the area of the city they're headed to (in NYC, for instance, a "Queens-bound" or "Manhattan-bound" train). For commuter trains centered on a single major city/urban center, we'll often use "inbound" or "outbound". For intercity rail (ex: on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor service), we generally use cardinal compass directions in colloquial usage because most of our intercity rail passes through several major cities of roughly equal importance, or we may use the name of the city with the terminal station it's heading towards. -- Avocado (talk) 15:05, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- Yes. Similar to the interstate system, landmark locations are used. Anecdote: When I was 16, I flew into Kansas City and had to go to Arrowhead Stadium. My dad was worried I would get lost, so he told me that if I see a sign for St. Louis, pull over, find a phone, and call him. Because I-435 was new, the signage was not complete. As I approached I-70, the sign said "Next Exit: St. Louis." What it would most likely say later was "Next Exit: I-70 East, St. Louis." As it turned out, getting to the stadium was no problem. Finding the entrance I needed took ages. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 16:36, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- We certainly do, but I don't think "up" or "down" are in such formal usage as compared with the Brits. More likely to just say "inbound" or "outbound". The "up" / "down" does make sense, though. The first line of "It's a Long Way to Tipperary" is "Up to mighty London came an Irish man one day..." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:45, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- Does the USA not have any northbound and southbound trains? HiLo48 (talk) 06:30, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- The use of "up" and "down" described in that article for railways in Britain is now mostly technical, but formerly it was in common use. In 19th and early 20th century books it is common to see people referring to "the down train" or "the up train", but if you used those phrases now, I think most people would look at you blankly. ColinFine (talk) 09:11, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- In Oxford in the 1960s, the exit from the "down" (west) platform was closed to save money on ticket collectors. Returning commuters had to use the subway (later replaced by a bridge) where they would encounter a ticket collector who was so aggressive and apparently perpetually drunk that comments were made in the local newspaper. He was later sacked. Buses were coded "L" or "H" according to whether they could pass under the Oxford and Cowley station bridges. A notice on the platform of "H" buses reminded conductors "Do not allow your driver to pass under Oxford or Cowley station bridges." The number 1 route used "H" vehicles and the destination blind westbound read "STATION" because it couldn't go any further. Late at night the blinds on all routes bore the one word "GARAGE." A friend was travelling on the top deck of an "H" bus which attempted the manoevre - she experienced the "tin opener effect" but escaped unharmed. In Pakistan the "up" and "down" classification is more logical - "up" trains travel to a higher altitude and "down" trains to a lower [1]. In Oxford of course, as in other universities, new students go "up" and when they leave they go "down". 2A00:23C6:2417:3101:CD7D:9961:DB38:71A (talk) 11:44, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- How is this anecdote relevant to the question? ColinFine (talk) 21:51, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- It somewhat relates, but it has its ups and downs. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:41, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- How is this anecdote relevant to the question? ColinFine (talk) 21:51, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- Sir, you have tasted two whole worms; you have hissed all my mystery lectures and been caught fighting a liar in the quad; you will leave Oxford by the next town drain. Wikiquote:Spoonerisms
- Alansplodge (talk) 15:06, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- That last one might have been intentional. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:48, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- The whole sentence is deliberately made up. --Lambiam 09:55, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- At least 99.999999999% of all sentences are deliberately made up. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:19, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- The whole sentence is deliberately made up. --Lambiam 09:55, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- That last one might have been intentional. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:48, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- In Oxford in the 1960s, the exit from the "down" (west) platform was closed to save money on ticket collectors. Returning commuters had to use the subway (later replaced by a bridge) where they would encounter a ticket collector who was so aggressive and apparently perpetually drunk that comments were made in the local newspaper. He was later sacked. Buses were coded "L" or "H" according to whether they could pass under the Oxford and Cowley station bridges. A notice on the platform of "H" buses reminded conductors "Do not allow your driver to pass under Oxford or Cowley station bridges." The number 1 route used "H" vehicles and the destination blind westbound read "STATION" because it couldn't go any further. Late at night the blinds on all routes bore the one word "GARAGE." A friend was travelling on the top deck of an "H" bus which attempted the manoevre - she experienced the "tin opener effect" but escaped unharmed. In Pakistan the "up" and "down" classification is more logical - "up" trains travel to a higher altitude and "down" trains to a lower [1]. In Oxford of course, as in other universities, new students go "up" and when they leave they go "down". 2A00:23C6:2417:3101:CD7D:9961:DB38:71A (talk) 11:44, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks! Here in the USA I'm used to eastbound and westbound, hence the confusion! 2601:646:9882:46E0:6CB4:4C13:4721:367B (talk) 06:19, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
- [un-indent] Interesting discussion, everyone! And yes, we Americans do have northbound and southbound trains (New York-Albany, for example), but they're not as common, and since most railroads have at least one east-west line, it's common practice to use that as a reference even if the main trunk line is north-south! So, a related question: if in Great Britain "up" means toward a major city, then on the North Western Railway (which, per the founder thereof, connects to The Other Railway at Barrow-in-Furness), would "up" mean toward Barrow-in-Furness, or would it mean toward Tidmouth, or would this be completely up to Sir Topham Hatt to decide? 2601:646:9882:46E0:7D3B:73DF:F255:8C8D (talk) 08:06, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- Well it would only affect the Main Line, for all other lines "up" would be towards the junction (or interchange where there is a break of gauge) with the main line. Tidmouth is only the largest town, Suddery is the capital. "Up" towards Suddery makes no sense (both the Brendam Bay branch line and the Main Line would have changes of "slope" halfway along), so one would assume "up" will be towards Vicarstown thence Barrow-in-Furness and on towards London. All IMHO of course! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC)