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Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 March 15

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March 15

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Have never vs. never have

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I could/would have never done that
vs.
I could/would never have done that.

The former seems to be the favoured version in the USA, if movies and tv shows are any guide. The latter is the one preferred in Commonwealth countries (possibly excluding Canada).

Is there a particular reason for this difference, and does it have anything to do with the (always-wrongheaded) proscription against splitting the infinitive? (Not that "have done" is an infinitive per se, but it is two parts of the same verb in the same way that "to do" is.) -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 01:57, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure the two sentences have the same meaning. To me, the most natural interpretation of the first sentence assumes that the speaker actually did whatever it was, and means "It's possible (counterfactually) that I never could have done X", while the second means "It's impossible that I could have ever done X". AnonMoos (talk) 04:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'm sure one could find all manner of nuanced meanings. But take a scenario where the speaker has been accused of something reprehensible, and their response is as above. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 06:26, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The second sounds more emphatic to me too. I half expect the first to be followed by an "except" or "if only". Clarityfiend (talk) 08:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's also "I never could have done that." Or, maybe poetically, "Never could I have done that." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:57, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Similarly, there is "would have not been possible" vs. "would not have been possible". While the second is much more common, the first has been steadily gaining relative popularity.[1] Selecting the "British English" or "American English" corpus makes little difference. But "has been steadily gaining" has steadily been losing popularity to "has steadily been gaining".[2]  --Lambiam 08:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interchange of /ɪks/ and /ɛks/, while pronouncing the prefix (initial) "ex" of English words.

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Some IPA-oriented dictionaries, e.g. Collins dictionary, give an initial /ɪks/ for some words, e.g. "expand" and "expect", while giving an initial /ɛks/ for some other words, like "expend" and "expectorate".

If somebody who is currently speaking English, while pronouncing English words that begin with the prefix "ex" of both kinds, permanently pronounces this "ex" with the wrong vowel, whether the vowel of "set" or the vowel of "sit", can this be considered to be a Sibboleth, i.e. a sign of being a non-native English speaker, to a native English speaker's ears?

Additionally, does the answer to my question depend on whether, the speaker pronounces the initial "ex" with the wrong vowel of "set" instead of the correct vowel of "sit", or vice versa, i.e. the speaker pronounces the initial "ex" with the wrong vowel of "sit" instead of the correct vowel of "set"?

Note I'm only asking about the prefix (initial) "ex", rather than about the very phonetic distinction between "sit/set" and likewise. 147.235.223.23 (talk) 13:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your question is at odds with the British English version I use:
The American version seems to show the same four pronunciations with an alternative for each beginning ɛ in place of ɪ.
It's worth adding that not all English speakers have the same accent; and that English dictionaries record, not prescribe, usage of spelling and pronunciation — there is no rulebook. Bazza 7 (talk) 13:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I find that the pronunciation of the initial vowel gets changed by the way my tongue rises in preparation for the 'k' sound. If I say 'expand' very slowly (but without stopping the vowel sound until just before the consonant), the vowel becomes an e-i diphthong, as in 'ache'. However, if I heard someone speaking the word slowly, then I would expect the e-sound to predominate, and the i-sound on its own would sound incorrect. -- Verbarson  talkedits 13:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
147.235.223.23 -- I think there's a lot more toleration of variations of prononunciation in unstressed vowels in English than in stressed vowels. But if you got it wrong as to when to pronounce "x" as [ks] and when to pronounce it as [gz], that would sound very strange.   -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:46, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of eksausting us, would you like to egzblain your last sentence by a simple eksample? Oh, sorry for forgetting the "h" in the third word. Oh, sorry for egz-janging the "p" by a "b" in the nineth word. It won't happen negzd dime, I promise. I'm pretty bad at spelling, yet I'm an egzbert in pronunciation. 147.235.223.23 (talk) 14:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you pronounced "exact" or "exaggerate" with [ks] instead of [gz], it would sound a bit strange. The [gz] pronunciation only happens intervocalically, usually immediately preceding a stressed vowel, so most of your examples don't work... AnonMoos (talk) 23:06, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So I've failed. But what about you? Would you like to give a few instances, just to clarify your last sentence in your previous contribution? 147.235.223.23 (talk) 14:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I already gave examples of "x"=[gz]; examples of "x"=[ks] are a dime a dozen. AnonMoos (talk) 23:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you think your examples (which I haven't noticed yet btw) are better than mine? 147.235.223.23 (talk) 14:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A06:C701:427F:A900:B552:C10D:40A2:7B31 (talk) [reply]
My examples are where [gz] occurs according to the dictionaries, and where [ks] could also occur without causing any pronounceability problems, while many of 147.235.223.23's examples (egzblain egz-janging negzd egzbert) are non-existent and nonsensical, since in English phonotactics [gz] cannot occur before a consonant. (It only occurs intervocalically -- including before a letter "h" in spelling which is silent in pronunciation -- and in most cases only directly before a stressed vowel, though linguistic analogies have produced a few cases where either [ks] or [gz] can occur before a non-stressed vowel, as in "exit".) AnonMoos (talk) 18:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Things can vary. Such as the word "exit", which I've heard both as "ex-it" and "eggs-it". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but that's because if it were stressed as a noun (e.g. "an OBject") it would naturally have the [ks] pronunciation, while if it were stressed as a verb (e.g. "I obJECT") then it would be followed by a stressed vowel, which would favor the [gz] pronunciation. I don't think that many people today distinguish between [ks] in the noun and [gz] in the verb, or pronounce the verb with second syllable stress, but that's how the [gz] possible pronunciation of "exit" originated... AnonMoos (talk) 02:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have source for the claim that the stress in the word exit used as a verb was originally on the second syllable? The verb is derived from the noun, so I find this implausible.  --Lambiam 14:04, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's difficult to figure out how any [gz] could occur unless there were some circumstances when "x" was before a stressed vowel. AnonMoos (talk) 19:10, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wiktionary also gives pronunciations /ˈɛɡˌzaɪl/ and /ˈɛkˌsaɪl/ for the noun (and verb) exile. Likewise, it gives both /ˈɛksədəs/ and /ˈɛɡzədəs/ for the noun (and verb) exodus.  --Lambiam 14:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not just before /ks/ or /gz/. How do you pronounce "any"? I think I grew up saying /ɪniː/ (my mother was from the South) but at some point I switched to /ɛniː/ because it sounded more like what my peers said. When I looked up Skeeter Davis's "The End of the World" I was struck by her pronunciation like the way I knew it as a child.
I would be surprised if we didn't have an article somewhere that covers this pair, but I don't know where to find it. --Trovatore (talk) 17:36, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Trovatore -- I have "agin" for "again", but pronounce "enny", not "inny". See Phonological history of English close front vowels#Pin–pen merger... -- AnonMoos (talk) 19:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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