Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2022 December 28

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December 28

How do you pronounce the surname Slouschz?

147.236.144.145 (talk) 21:21, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

The Hebrew סְלוּשְץ says either /sluʃt͡s/ or /sluʃət͡s/; the Anglicization strongly suggests it is monosyllabic, so /sluʃt͡s/ ("slooshts" if you will) ColinFine (talk) 22:07, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

As a Hebrew speaker, I'm quite aware of the analogous article in the Hebrew Wiki, and it really suggests: Slooshts, as the English/German Wiki does. However the analogous article in the Russian Wiki suggests: Slooshch. The Egyptian Arabic wiki suggests Sloos-ch-z, which is probably wrong. A friend of mine has told me that its original Polish(?) pronunciation is Shloots, but unfortunately he is not a Polish speaker, nor can he read out Polish. I'd like to know how a native speaker of the original language (Polish? Russian?) would read it out. 147.236.144.145 (talk) 00:15, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Apparently the -schz is a German-style transcription of the שץ (or maybe the other way around), but the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia is treating it as if it were English: س + تش + ز.

The щ in Russian used to be [ɕtɕ] but is now [ɕː]. The Belarusian language doesn't use that letter and would have to write it with шч [ʂtʂ] instead. The person was born in present-day Belarus, then part of the Russian Empire.

Native Polish terms can begin either with sł- (the ł used to be [ɫ] but is now [w]) or with śl- [ɕl-]. It's possible that they read out this name with the latter cluster, but I can't be sure about that. --Theurgist (talk) 03:08, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

My other problem is that I can't even identify the original language of this surname. Thank you for your clarifications about Polish and Belarusian (I did know the current state in Russian though), but I still don't know how I should read it out... 147.236.144.145 (talk) 08:06, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

I'd guess those final consonant clusters appear more Slavic than Hebrew. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

There are plenty google hits for the spelling Słuszcz but none for Śluszcz --Crash48 (talk) 10:10, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Aren't these misspellings of tłuszcz, like seen here: "słuszcz dachowy" for "tłuszcz dachowy", translating Russian барсучий жир, "badger fat"?  --Lambiam 10:39, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Some are misspellings; but Books shows genuine hits. Crash48 (talk) 12:02, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

The preponderance of evidence points at /sluʃt͡s/. The family moved from the historically Lithuanian city Smarhonʹ to the Ukrainian city Odessa when Slouschz was about seven years old. In both cities, the population was were predominantly Jewish, most likely communicating among each other in Yiddish. Slouschz grew up and lived there, apart from a visit of Palestine, till the age of 23. The local pronunciation of his name, written Слущ in Cyrillic, is probably more relevant than that of a possible Polish etymon. A more important source of information is that he, at the age of 15, reportedly contributed letters to Hebrew newspapers, which were, presumably, signed in Hebrew script with סלושץ. (The Hebrew Wikipedia has "Hebrew newspapers", but isn't "Yiddish" more likely?) If this can be confirmed, it rules out an onset /ʃl/. The transcription into the Latin alphabet is slightly puzzling, though. The use of ⟨ou⟩ is not consistent with a German-style transcription, but indicates the French style. This fits well with Slouschz migrating to Francophone Geneva, and then to Paris. The use of ⟨sch⟩ for /ʃ/ is also not unexpected; compare the French spelling schtreimel for shtreimel (Yiddish: שטרײַמל). But the final ⟨z⟩, supposedly representing /t͡s/, is typical of German-style transcription.  --Lambiam 10:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

1. There's a common Russian Jewish surname spelled Слоущ, so ⟨ou⟩ in an otherwise German-style transcription might as well stand for a diphthong.
2. Ahad Ha'am in his letter from 1899 [1] spells Nahum's surname as סלושטש; presumably Nahum chose not to Germanise it as Slouschtsch, preferring practical reasons over phonetic accuracy.
3. Nahum is known first and foremost as a Hebrew revival enthusiast, so quite certainly he was contributing letters to Hebrew newspapers indeed.

Crash48 (talk) 12:19, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

The letter by Ahad Ha'am supports a coda /ʃt͡ʃ/ if we stick to Yiddish phonology. But then, why did Slouschz himself use סלושץ (if that is what he did)? The practicality of five instead of six letters can hardly trump the importance of phonetic accuracy. My doubt about Hebrew is not about Slouschz's linguistic abilities, but about Hebrew-language newspapers being published in 19th-century Odessa. Did he sent his contributions to newspapers published in the 19th-century Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem?  --Lambiam 13:03, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Here is an 1897 article in a Hebrew newspaper, signed נחום סלושטש Crash48 (talk) 12:44, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Perplexingly, here is a 1900 article in the same Hebrew newspaper, signed נחום סלושץ Crash48 (talk) 14:53, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Regarding the vowel/diphthong: in the Jewish Encyclopedia published in St Petersburg in the early 1910s, his name was spelled Слоущъ Нахумъ -- see [2] page 195 (col. 385) Crash48 (talk) 14:36, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Now uploaded File:Kovetz Sippurim.JPG (1898) which uses the spellings סלושטש in Hebrew and Слоуща in Russian.

In fact, I cannot find any Russian RS calling him Слущ! The ruwikipedians must have made it up themselves? Crash48 (talk) 15:49, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

The plot thickens. That is a lot of clearly very valuable information, but somehow the whole picture remains puzzling. If my understanding is correct, Ukrainian has conserved the realization of щ as /ʃt͡ʃ/. But why did Slouschz then later sign סלושץ? Also, if the name has a diphthong written in Russian as оу, probably realized as /oʊ/ or more in Ukrainian fashion as /ɔʊ/, this is consistent with a German-based Romanization – although German has no such diphthong and German speakers trying to pronounce ⟨ou⟩ might produce something like /oˈʔuː/. I'm insufficiently familiar with Hebrew to think of a way to preserve the diphthong when Hebraizing the name, but looking at US English /ˈɹoʊ.zə.vɛlt/ for "Roosevelt" and then at the Hebrew spelling רוזוולט, we shouldn't expect it to be preserved. In light of the new evidence, it appears more likely that the way Slouschz pronounced his own name is more closely approximated by /slɔuʃt͡ʃ/.  --Lambiam 21:20, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Hebrew speakers pronounce רוזוולט as /ʁuzvelt/, a likely influence from Russian Рузвельт, a phonetic pseudo-Anglicism. But indeed, the English diphthong /oʊ/ isn't usually preserved in Hebrew, although inconsistencies exist (there are articles ג'ון סנו and ג'ון סנואו on two persons named John Snow). --Theurgist (talk) 00:05, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm rather certain it's [sluʂtʂ], as in Belarusian; the Hebrew spelling doesn't always distinguish between צ [ts] and צ' [tʂ]. --Crash48 (talk) 10:02, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the new sources. I've just added them in the Hebrew Wiki, including footnotes for removing any contradiction. See ibid. 147.236.144.145 (talk) 23:16, 29 December 2022 (UTC)