Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 May 20
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May 20
editOlder or elder
editI have two brothers. If I refer to my elder brother am I necessarily implying that he is older than myself or is he merely older than my other brother? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 13:13, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- PS Did younger ever have a similar variant like elder v older, or perhaps in other Germanic languages? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:47, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- [1] sheds some light on what are, in essence, the same word. Bazza (talk) 15:50, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think my elder brother and my older brother mean the same: you have one brother who is older than you, and the phrase refers to that brother. The traditional comparative and superlative of old – elder – eldest, once regular, were at some point in the development of modern English perceived as irregular and pushed out by a newfangled old – older – oldest. The traditional forms somehow managed to hang on to life in a very restricted context. --Lambiam 16:03, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- To the original question: I think that your elder brother necessarily is older than you. However, your eldest (or oldest) brother might conceivably be younger than you, by being the oldest of your more than one younger brothers. --T*U (talk) 20:44, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- That could cause confusion, as how can you have a brother who's both older and younger than you? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:57, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Easy. Say I'm the first-born, then came 3 more brothers. The second-born of us 4 brothers is the oldest of my three younger brothers. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:15, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- That's how you avoid any confusion: "My oldest younger brother". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:34, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- The main distinction between older/est and elder/est is that older is absolute, while elder is relative. If I had a brother who died at age 5, three years before I was born, he will always be my elder brother but I'm now a lot older than he ever was, and I've had that status ever since I turned 6. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 06:10, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- It's (annoyingly) less precise than that and I repeat my link from above. [2] Bazza (talk) 09:13, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Bazza the link you recommend does not actually address this issue at all. I'm afraid it's also rather lacking in citations. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:18, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Dodger67 I wasn't aware that the Cambridge University Press's dictionaries were sufficiently unreliable for this talk page to require them to have citations. The entry whose link I gave earlier addresses the initial presumption that there's a firm distinction between "elder" and "older". Reading above, I am not the only one to think that that's wrong. Bazza (talk) 15:54, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Bazza the link you recommend does not actually address this issue at all. I'm afraid it's also rather lacking in citations. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:18, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- It's (annoyingly) less precise than that and I repeat my link from above. [2] Bazza (talk) 09:13, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- The main distinction between older/est and elder/est is that older is absolute, while elder is relative. If I had a brother who died at age 5, three years before I was born, he will always be my elder brother but I'm now a lot older than he ever was, and I've had that status ever since I turned 6. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 06:10, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- That's how you avoid any confusion: "My oldest younger brother". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:34, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Your older brother boards a starship exploring for other habitable planets, then returns younger due to time dilation. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:57, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Clarityfiend
- There was a young man named Bright
- Who traveled much faster than light
- He set off one day
- In a relative way
- And returned on the previous night
- Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:18, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Easy. Say I'm the first-born, then came 3 more brothers. The second-born of us 4 brothers is the oldest of my three younger brothers. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:15, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- That could cause confusion, as how can you have a brother who's both older and younger than you? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:57, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- To the original question: I think that your elder brother necessarily is older than you. However, your eldest (or oldest) brother might conceivably be younger than you, by being the oldest of your more than one younger brothers. --T*U (talk) 20:44, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think my elder brother and my older brother mean the same: you have one brother who is older than you, and the phrase refers to that brother. The traditional comparative and superlative of old – elder – eldest, once regular, were at some point in the development of modern English perceived as irregular and pushed out by a newfangled old – older – oldest. The traditional forms somehow managed to hang on to life in a very restricted context. --Lambiam 16:03, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Funny. But the fact of his having been born before you remains unchanged. He may have aged less than you did during the time of his star trek, but he's still older than you are. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:39, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- No. He would be both older (chronologically) and younger (Collins dictionary definition of older: "having lived or existed longer") than you. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:28, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- Assuming he gets back and you're both still existing, then he has existed longer than you have. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- Nope, not according to Albert, see twin paradox. It is not aging that has been affected by the twin's travel, it is time itself. --T*U (talk) 07:10, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- Whose clock takes precedence? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:46, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- Well that's rather the point: wikt:to each his own. --T*U (talk) 10:10, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- So if the older one is 2 years older than you, he would have to travel near light speed for something over 2 years by your clock, in order for you to "catch up" to and pass him. But I question whether that dictionary is taking such far-out possibilities into account in their definition. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed! And far-out it is! But time dilation (which is the physical foundation for the twin paradox) has been observed in experiments, although only by milliseconds. It is, however, crucial to take the effect into account in satelite control. --T*U (talk) 11:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- So if the older one is 2 years older than you, he would have to travel near light speed for something over 2 years by your clock, in order for you to "catch up" to and pass him. But I question whether that dictionary is taking such far-out possibilities into account in their definition. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- Well that's rather the point: wikt:to each his own. --T*U (talk) 10:10, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- Whose clock takes precedence? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:46, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- Nope, not according to Albert, see twin paradox. It is not aging that has been affected by the twin's travel, it is time itself. --T*U (talk) 07:10, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- Assuming he gets back and you're both still existing, then he has existed longer than you have. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- No. He would be both older (chronologically) and younger (Collins dictionary definition of older: "having lived or existed longer") than you. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:28, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- Funny. But the fact of his having been born before you remains unchanged. He may have aged less than you did during the time of his star trek, but he's still older than you are. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:39, 24 May 2020 (UTC)