Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 June 24

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June 24

inversion of meaning: "want"

When and why did the meaning of "want" change from "lacking something you need" to "lacking something you desire but don't actually need"? Iapetus (talk) 11:06, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

"Want" has always meant "deficiency, insufficiency, shortage".[1] "Need" meant "what is required, wanted, or desired...".[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:35, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It didn't change meaning, but a acquired new, related one from its original "lack". OED states that its origins are "Middle English the noun from Old Norse vant, neuter of vanr 'lacking'; the verb from Old Norse vanta 'be lacking'. The original notion of 'lack' was early extended to 'need' and from this developed the sense 'desire'." Wiktionary states dates inferring that this secondary meaning arises during around the 18th century, backed up by [3]. I'm not sure any meaning includes the "don't actually need" you mentioned, and I have not heard it used in that sense. Bazza (talk) 11:38, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

We often hear the expression "wants and needs", drawing an implicit distinction between "nice to have" or "wish list" and "must have". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:00, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

The original meaning is "lack", which does not necessarily imply "need". ("forty Portuguese were found wanting"; "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in lack want of a wife.") According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, the sense of "something lacking" is from the 1560s. Awareness of the lack, if pertaining to oneself, will normally entail a desire to end it.  --Lambiam 13:40, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Re: "Awareness of the lack, if pertaining to oneself, will normally entail a desire to end it", I can think of a huge number of counterexamples. For instance, I am aware^{[Citation Needed]} that I currently lack someone poking me in the eye with a sharp stick, but have zero desire to end said lack. :) A google search on " lacking the disadvantages of " (with the quotes) brings up many examples. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:05, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

In general, "need" would seem to be a subset of "want". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:34, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I am not sure about that one either. I need to eat more broccoli and less bacon but I want to eat more bacon and less broccoli. I need to do my daily exercises but I want to sit on my couch and watch Doctor Who (preferably while eating bacon). --Guy Macon (talk) 17:40, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Good point. Needing to be healthy and wanting to be healthy are not necessarily under the same umbrella. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:10, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

So when all advice suggests I should lose 50 kilos but it stubbonly remains unlost, whose need is it I'm not satisfying? In my inner world, it's more important for me to do whatever I do in my life, and clearly less important for me to achieve weight loss. This is where "I need" and "I should" get terribly confused. I might agree that I should lose the kilos, but do I need to? Really need to? Clearly, in my decision-making centre, the computer says "no". Would I prefer that it said "yes"? Probably. No, definitely. But until such time as it says "yes", I tell myself I'm off the hook. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:29, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

fewer broccoli. —Tamfang (talk) 04:22, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Only if you're counting each broccolo. But does anyone do that? Cf. counting each macarono or spaghetto or linguino or rice grain. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:18, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

or each fusillo.  --Lambiam 13:22, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

macarone, assuming that's the augmentative suffix. —Tamfang (talk) 04:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)