Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 June 11

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June 11

I require that it (is? be? shall be? should be? will be? would be?) stopped.

Could you classify all options, per: archaic speech, high speech, usual standard speech, rare standard speech, ungrammatical native speech, ungrammatical non-native speech? Umzu (talk) 19:06, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I think it's more the case that the speaker either knows and uses the subjunctive mood, or doesn't. That would probably influence which of the other classifications might apply, but opinions about the usefulness of the subjunctive are very subjective. - Nunh-huh 00:37, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Umzu -- In American English, a sentence such as "I demand that he leave the room" would be quite normal (though whether the verb form can be usefully called "subjunctive" is doubtful), while "I demand that he leaves the room" with inflectional suffix would sound odd. The sentence "I require that it is/be" unfortunately sounds odd regardless of the verb form used, so I don't know what to tell you there... -- AnonMoos (talk) 02:51, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Did you change "require" into "demand", and "it" into "he", on purpose?

If "is/be" sounds odd, then how would you complete the sentence: I require/demand that it/he is/be? Umzu (talk) 06:12, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

I went with a sentence that's very clear and unproblematic. The closest I can get to your sentence is something like "I require that it come into existence" (still possibly a bit odd, but my native-speaker sprachgefühl tells me that "come" is preferred to "comes" there, while I have no idea about your original sentence). AnonMoos (talk) 06:56, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

I think I've found where our misunderstanding had stemmed from, because I didn't explain myself well. Please note that the sentence is supposed to end with an adjective. I have just fixed the title of this thread. Please see it again, and please refer to as more options (of the six in the title) as you can, because I'm not a native English speaker. Umzu (talk) 08:44, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

The subjunctive mood is necessary in this case, in my opinion. Given the sentence "I require that it (verb auxiliary) stopped.":

Be: correct (subjunctive mood)

Is, will be: incorrect (indicative mood)

Shall be: correct as emphatic form

Should, would be: incorrect (arguably subjunctive but could be interpreted as conditional)

There might also be an ENGVAR aspect. I (American) have frequently edited text from British writers who used the indicative mood in this case. Jmar67 (talk) 09:38, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Does any of the 4 "ungrammatical" options (in GA), sound also non-native to your ears? Umzu (talk) 11:27, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I do not understand the question. Jmar67 (talk) 20:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

I meant, if someone uses the indicative mood (e.g. "I require that it will be stopped", or "I require that it is stopped"), do they sound non-native to your ears? Umzu (talk) 22:56, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

I would not suspect they were not native speakers, only that they do not understand or agree with use of the subjunctive in this case. Jmar67 (talk) 02:55, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

But saying "I require it to be stopped." sounds better to my ears than any form of the subjunctive. I think it would be the preferred form outside the USA. (To be fair, the subjunctive sounds odd in any sentence outside the "I wish I were . . ." form.)TotallyNotSarcasm [lɪi̯v ə me̞sɪ̈d͡ʒ] [kɔnt͡ʂɻɪ̈bjɨʉ̯ʃn̩z] 10:50, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Does any of the six options, sound also non-native to your ears? Umzu (talk) 11:27, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

We'd need to see the context, but "be" alone, seems odd, at least in the following context:

• "What is his name ?" (good)
• "What be his name?" (archaic in Standard English, perhaps OK in some dialects, like Amish English and Ebonics)
• "What would be his name?" (a bit unusual, but OK)
• "What shall be his name?" (good, if talking about assigning a new name)
• "What will be his name ?" (same as above)
• "What should be his name ?" (same as above, but asking for an opinion of what name is best) SinisterLefty (talk) 17:46, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Are you asking about the context? It's the sentence in the title! "I require that it...stopped". Umzu (talk) 18:07, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

In that case, they all sound oddly formal. I would say just "Stop.", "Stop it.", "Please stop.", or "Stop now !". More context is still needed, however. What is the sentence before, which presumably describes the thing to be stopped ? SinisterLefty (talk) 17:07, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

SinisterLefty -- You removed the clause from any context which in which 3rd-person singular present non-modal verbs without an "-s" verb inflection would be expected to occur (verb forms which are often called "subjunctive", though whether or not this is a useful label is another issue)... AnonMoos (talk)

The verb in the subordinate clause of "I demand that he leave the room" is indeed idiomatic in US English. It uses what the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (CGEL) terms the subjunctive mandative. Until fairly recently it would in Britain have seemed old-fashioned, formal, American or some combination of these; but recently it has (re)gained ground. "I demand that he leaves the room" is what CGEL terms the covert mandative. It isn't (or till recently wasn't) odd in Britain but it's distinctly odd in the US. In Britain, what CGEL terms the should mandative ("I demand that he should leave the room") is common too. ¶ I'm not aware that "What be his name?" would be archaic in standard English. Rather, I'd call it straightforwardly ungrammatical. However, I can't be bothered to look it up in a corpus, which really is what anyone with a serious interest in this kind of stuff should do. (Recommended.) -- Hoary (talk) 09:50, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Many years ago, the Royal Mail decided that it would stop collecting from its pillar boxes on Sundays. The Sunday delivery finished in the 1930s (in Victorian times there were hourly collections and deliveries throughout the day). The Sunday collection had been axed previously, but reinstated from selected boxes. A sticker appeared on the affected boxes reading "With effect from [date] the Sunday collection from this box will be ceased." This attracted much adverse comment and a certain amount of graffiti. 2A02:C7F:A42:AD00:6D9E:CD5D:662E:5310 (talk) 17:16, 14 June 2019 (UTC)