Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 December 20

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December 20

Pronunciation of "Santa"

All of December in the lab where I work I am the sad victim of continuous "popular" Christmas music, which means not only hearing mostly terrible music, but also the same songs, many many times throughout the day. There's one in particular that gets my knickers in a twist. It's "Hey Santa" (missing comma not mine) by Carnie and Wendy Wilson . Much of the chorus comprises singing "Santa", and it's invariably pronounced "Sanna" or "San'na". It sounds like there is something where the t belongs. But no t. This failure to pronounce Santa anything like correctly seems peculiar. They produced a whole song and nobody said anything? Or noticed? Is there a name for dropping a t like that, linguistically? Is it an American thing? A country music thing? A singing thing? Maybe it won't annoy me so much if it's a "thing". Thanks! Julia\^talk 00:09, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia should have a List of "things", to which people everywhere can refer to resolve such issues. So many things are "things" these days, it must surely be only a matter of time. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:20, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I like Jack's idea of a list of these "things", but in its absence, you might like to read our article on Flapping. In addition, areas of the UK use a glottal stop in place of a "t". Dbfirs 00:26, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I am surprised to learn that we don't have an article on every Thing. If even Language Log acknowledges that "thing" has become a thing, perhaps it's time that we did? Carbon Caryatid (talk) 08:48, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

• In the "Sanna" case you are hearing either a glottalized, unreleased, or assimilated tee. See English_phonology#Obstruents. μηδείς (talk) 03:13, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

The problem is at least as old as the song "Mairzy Doats".—Wavelength (talk) 04:50, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

This is how I pronounce Santa: [ˈsæ̃ɾə]. Instead of a /t/, I use ɾ, a voiced alveolar flap, as in water: [ˈwɔɾɚ]. —Stephen (talk) 05:09, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Possibly related: Leonard Cohen's song "Is This What You Wanted". In the chorus, he sings "Is this what you wanted", with a distinct "t", which the backing singers sing as "wann'ed"; the next line is "to live in a house which is haunted", again with a distinct "t", which the backing singers sing as "haun'ed". The standard American singing accent, that most English-speaking singers imitate, seems to drop "t" following "n". --Nicknack009 (talk) 09:56, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

A blog post about the Dropped T Sound in American English, in words like "winter" and "center", often pronounced as "winner" and "cenner". --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:00, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I was slightly surprised to read of Susan Ryan's advice (in the blog above) to her Japanese client to drop "t"s to sound "more smoother" [sic]. Her client had presumably learnt British English, where dropping "t"s is considered regional and non-standard, but perhaps he wanted to sound like a smooth American? I agree that the dropping of "t"s in singing is a "thing" to make the sound more smooth, even in British vocals. Dbfirs 10:33, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Dropping the T (or not) is regional in British English, but has become a lot more widespread in my lifetime, to the extent that it almost seems to be the standard. (I asked a question about it here a few months ago, but can't find it in the archives). Iapetus (talk) 13:56, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree that there are regions where a glottal stop is common in casual speech, but where have you heard Father Christmas referred to as "sanna" as "standard"? I haven't heard it near to where I live. The "t" in Christmas is silent, of course, and some people omit it in "Christ" in non-standard speech. Dbfirs 21:49, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was talking about general pronunciations. I've only ever heard Santa pronounced as "Santa" (or "Father Christmas"). Iapetus (talk) 13:56, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

It sounds to me like one is saying it like "Sant-uh" and the other is saying it more like "San-uh". I notice that they both said "winter", not "winner". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:55, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

A seven-year guarantee is different from a seventy-year guarantee.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:29, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

• Seriously folks, this is glottalization, assimilation or lack of release. Tell me what you want and tell me what you won are perfectly distinct in every English dialect which I have encountered, even thought in want the t is not fully articulated as plain [t]. I remember our music teacher in elementary school (aged six) telling us to "pronounce" our final tees, and if you listen to the early Billy Joel you will hear him say things like "bottle of whit(ch)e", which is an obvious sign of voice coaching. No American says "[ˈsæ̃ɾə]". Tee is not flapped post-nasally. Cantor and candor are quite distinct, even if the tee in cantor is somehow reduced. Next I expect to hear that gravity affects feathers and cannon balls differently. μηδείς (talk) 04:44, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't trust a great deal of what a six-year-old music teacher told me.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:08, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

In singing, at least in classical singing, it is important to pronounce final [t], but more important to pronounce it at the right time. Untutored singers will almost always render it early, which cuts the note short and leaves you with nothing to do till the next note starts. Sometimes a choir director will designate a single singer to pronounce the [t] and tell the rest of them to leave it off — hopefully that singer will wait till the end of the note, but at the very least one avoids the risk that all the singers will pronounce it at slightly different times, for a washboard-road effect. --Trovatore (talk) 05:39, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Sorry I'm late. I don't know, it's very possibly a Carnie and Wendy Wilson "thing". Anyway, it's far from the first deliberately mispronounced word in a song. Elton John had a song consisting entirely of words that aren't even words. See Artistic license. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:25, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Spanish or Portuguese in article Tocache

Please can someone take a look for me? Many thanks --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:04, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I've removed that stuff as a copyright violation. (Someone can still translate it for you if you want.) Deor (talk) 14:30, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

No, that's fine, thanks --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:50, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Just for the record, it was Spanish. Wymspen (talk) 19:35, 20 December 2016 (UTC)