Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 November 6

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November 6

Verb confusion

"Though his use of salvia may not be the direct cause, or even contributed, to his suicide..."---In this sentence, the use of "even contributed" as it is, does not seem right to me. Am I right? Please help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.74.40.58 (talk) 07:11, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah it's wrong. I would go with something like "Though his use of salvia may not have been the direct cause of his suicide, and may not even have contributed to it..." Plus, I would be tempted to split this rather long sentence into two. I don't like sentences that run on too long. Something like, "His use of salvia may not have been the direct cause of his suicide, and may not even have contributed to it. However..." --Viennese Waltz 08:14, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

If you're looking for the least change, I'd go with: "Though his use of salvia may not have been the direct cause of, or even contributed to, his suicide ..." Clarityfiend (talk) 09:20, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I'd go with less wordy one: ""Though his use of salvia may not have directly caused, or even contributed to, his suicide" No such user (talk) 10:45, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

This sentence is much more confusing when your eyes automatically "correct" salvia to saliva, as mine did. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:46, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad it wasn't just me! {The poster formally known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 15:47, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• Since this is the Language desk, I'm going to repeat a complaint I've made before, even though it doesn't directly relate to the question. Salvia is a genus that contains numerous types of plants -- it is basically the sage family. In other words, "salvia" is synonymous with "sage". Salvia divinorum is one particular type of sage, which happens to have mind-altering effects. If it needs to be referred to using a shorter name, divinorum would be much better than salvia. Looie496 (talk) 17:24, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Quite true, but you need to convince the various news media who often refer to any such plant used for mind-altering properties as simply "Salvia". It has actually lead some groceries to consider if they should keep stocking culinary sage, i have been told. Of course people can be impressed by scary terms that they don't know, consider the DHMO hoaxes. DES ^(talk) 19:46, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

DHMO has, in fact, been known to kill. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

One verb, multiple subjects

What is the name of the literary device of using a single verb with multiple subjects, often in different sense of the verb. The example in my mind is the three uses of this in Flanders and Swann's delightful Have Some Madeira M'Dear, specifically: "He hastened to put out the cat, the wine, his cigar, and the lamp" and "She lowered her standards by raising her glass, her courage, her eyes and his hopes" and finally "As he asked 'What in heaven?' she made no reply, up her mind, and a dash for the door." Most uses are not as amusing, of course. DES ^(talk) 16:11, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Zeugma or syllepsis. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:15, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Not precisely the same thing, but I always liked this "Wiley's dictionary" entry in the B.C. comic strip: "rock: To cause someone or something to swing or sway... by hitting them with it." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:45, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

And I like: "Time flies like an arrow, while fruit flies like a banana". StuRat (talk) 21:02, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

We have an article on Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana as a whole... AnonMoos (talk) 01:37, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I actually prefer to reverse it: "Fruit flies like a banana, while time flies like an arrow." This makes me picture temporal-shifting insects which are attracted to vectors. :-) StuRat (talk) 06:58, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

It's not really a legitimate "literary device"; more a play on words, so I doubt there's a precise term for it. But it seems to me to be a type of equivocation--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:40, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

So it's not zeugma? —Tamfang (talk) 03:03, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Multiple objects. —Tamfang (talk) 03:03, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes it is definitely Zeugma type 1. --Lgriot (talk) 08:15, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Some grammar misunderstanding

Hi, Recently I practiced some grammar in this site and there were some things that I didn't understand, so I'm going to share you with these as a introduction I want to tell you that so far I've known that the verb gets adverb and noun get an adjective. However, in the site which mention above I recovered some incomprehensible things, so I would like to your explanation about the first one is 1) "Robin looks sad. What's the matter with him?

why here do we say sad and no sadly? so here we can explain that the word "sad" imagines the noun. By the way, this problem accrues also in the following sentences: "This steak smells good." or "This hamburger tastes awful." are misunderstanding things.. I can guess that when it's stative verb it gets an adjective, but on second thought I think that is not right because that if we say "He think quick" it's incorrect even it's stative verb, but if we say He think quickly, that's right! so I'm confusion

so let's go to the second one

2) "Kevin is extremely clever" extremely is an adjective and I don't see in this sentence even one verb... so what is the solution of this problem?

OK, the third one is also difficult for understanding even I know that the this is an everyday use

3) "Don't speak so fast. I can't understand you." so after all there is here a verb and "fast" imagines what is the intrepidity the person does, so why we don't say Don't speak so fastly or something instead of. I know that there is no a adjective which is called "fastly" but I hope that you understand the matter ( you can read about the fastly problem- by googling)

the forth one is also misunderstanding 4) Be careful with this glass of milk. I why "be careful" and no "be carefully"? I think that be is a verb in this case but maybe I make mistake Thank you for the reading — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.210.198.201 (talk) 20:15, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

In the second sentence the verb is is. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 20:21, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

You are correct that verbs of being and condition ("John is ...", "John feels ...") are usually parsed with predicative adjectives modifying the subject, not adverbs modifying the verb. This takes care of (1) and (4). (4) can be compared to "John is being careful." If you were focusing on the action rather than the subject, you would use an adverb: "John is careful with the milk" ("careful" modifies "John"), but "John pours the milk carefully" ("carefully" modifies "pours").

Adverbs can modify adjectives as well as verbs: "very good", "extremely clever". This takes care of (2).

Knowing that "fast" is both the adjectival and adverbial form (3) is just something you have to learn. There aren't a lot of these (I think), and they're mostly old, short words.

-- Elphion (talk) 20:30, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

With regard to (3), see Flat adverb. Deor (talk) 20:36, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

And English is not entirely consistent about this (surprise!). For example "He painted the house a bright red" can be parsed on the model of "He chose a bright color (adjective noun) for the house", but we also say "He has a bright red house" or "He drives a bright red car", meaning that the color of the car is a particularly bright shade of red. So here is an adjective ("bright") modifying another adjective ("red"). "He drives a brightly red car" is ostensibly grammatical, but not idiomatic. In effect, "bright red" functions as a single, inseparable adjective.

Another inconsistency: "She is poorly today" or "She feels poorly". I've seen this (mainly British) usage analyzed several different ways, but in effect, "poorly" functions despite its form as an adjective modifying "she", not as an adverb modifying "is".

-- Elphion (talk) 21:28, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

There are quite a few adjectives in -ly, many of them old-fashioned or archaic, but not all: besides poorly, there is goodly, friendly, kindly, fatherly, and others. Many of them relate to relationships between people, as fatherly, brotherly, friendly, matronly. They date from a time when the suffic -lic (compare German -lich) had not got restricted to adverbs. --ColinFine (talk) 00:01, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Miss Bono, is "is" considered a verb for anyone?! after all it's called auxiliary verb. It doesn't behave like a verb at all. 46.210.198.201 (talk · contribs) 22:05, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

In Spanish is/es-está is a verbal from the to be/ser-estar verb. I can give my point in this but, as English is not my native language, my explanation would be better if I give it in Spanish. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 15:59, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

To students of Spanish, learning the difference between ser and estar can be a challenge. I like to think of it as essence and status, as those English words have the same Latin roots as ser and estar respectively. If that premise is correct (and Ms. Bono can set me straight if it isn't), I could say Aconcagua es una montaña, y Aconcagua está en Argentina. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:15, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

That is super duper correct Bugs. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 16:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I am sure that the verb "to be" has been a verb for hundreds of years (though possibly three different verbs in Old English), that it still is, and will be for many years to come. Dbfirs 23:14, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

To be, in its various forms, is certainly a verb, but it is a special verb. It may function as an auxiliary, as Elphion says; but it can also function as a substantive verb, in which role it is known to grammarians as a copula. --ColinFine (talk) 00:04, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

46.210.198.201 said it, not me. -- Elphion (talk) 01:51, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

46.210.198.201 -- Esperanto kind of works that way, so that Estas varme means "It is warm", where varme is an adverb with an adverb ending, since it doesn't modify any explicit noun. However, natural languages are not necessarily so tidy... AnonMoos (talk) 01:29, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

In the statement "It is warm", the "warm" is an adjective describing whatever "it" happens to be. Could be the weather, the room temperature, the water running from a faucet, a child's forehead, or whatever. The adverb form is "warmly", as in "the guest was warmly received". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:20, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Dr. Zamenhof apparently disagreed... AnonMoos (talk) 15:37, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

"The weather is warm". That's an adjective.[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:38, 7 November 2013 (UTC)