Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 March 21

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

March 21

Telekommunikationsgesetz

Please translate sections 89 and 148 of the German Telekommunikationsgesetz into Japanese! --84.61.139.62 (talk) 09:48, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

We tend not to be too keen on doing what look like commercial translations for free. That said, maybe you'd have better luck at the Japanese reference desk, where you are more likely to find native speakers of Japanese. Marco polo (talk) 16:55, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

A hint: The Japanese FM radio band overlaps mostly with the German BOS 4 meter band. --84.61.139.62 (talk) 17:09, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Essentially, Section 89 states that people operating radio receivers may not receive, or communicate about, radio broadcasts not intended for the public. Section 148 states that people who violate Section 89 or Section 90 (which you haven't linked but which apparently has to do with radio transmission rather than reception) are subject to 2 years' imprisonment or a fine. Please do not construe this as any kind of legal advice, which we cannot offer, nor is my translation the most reliable, as I am not a native German speaker. Nor do I have any Japanese language skills. Marco polo (talk) 19:10, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

British English question regarding "50p"

From BBC: "The chancellor said the 50p rate was uncompetitive, raised "next to nothing" and would fall to 45p next year."[1]. Is "50p" pronounced "fifty pence" or "fifty percent"? Assuming it's the former, in what situation does "pence" replace "percent"? Anonymous.translator (talk) 15:28, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

It is correctly pronounced "50 pence" but more commonly "50 pee". "Fifty percent" means 50%, not 50p. - filelakeshoe 15:32, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

And in the context in which George used it, he means 50 pence in the pound, which is the same as 50%. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:33, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, yeah, misunderstood the question. When talking about taxes and similar charges, "pence" often replaces "percent" to mean x pence in every pound. If you were describing it to a non-English person it might be better to use "percent" instead, and write it as 50%. - filelakeshoe 15:36, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

So is taxation the only situation where "pence" is used instead of "percent"? Are there any similar situations like that? Anonymous.translator (talk) 15:52, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

It's "50 pence [in a pound]" only when you are talking about a portion of money. So if there is a context where "50 pence [in a pound]" makes sense other than taxation, you could also use it that way.

Interestingly, in Australia, while tax rates are officially prescribed as "x cents for each dollar..." http://www.ato.gov.au/content/12333.htm], a particular tax rate would not usually be called (for example) "the 45 cent tax rate", it would be "the 45% tax rate". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:56, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

For some reason, it is more commonly spoken of as 'pence in the pound'. Like PalaceGuard says, any discussion of proportions of money can be referred to in this way - here is a discussion of creditors being paid '20 pence in the pound'. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:05, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

This usage originates from pre-decimal currency - when, obviously, the conversion between the two was not straightforward. It was far clearer to offer a pay rise of five pence in the pound than a pay rise of 21⁄12% - everyone would understand the former, and few the latter. Obviously converting between the two became trivial with decimalisation, but the custom of discussing such things in terms of pence in the pound has remained. Kahastok talk 21:54, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

It's slightly misleading to refer to a 50p tax rate as 50%, because of the effect the tax allowance has on the amount of tax paid and also the National Insurance contribution has an effect. You don't pay 50% of your gross income in tax, if you earn enough to fall into that tax band. You pay 50% of your income above the 50% tax band starting point. --TammyMoet (talk) 16:13, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

The US solution to that issue is to refer to an "x % marginal tax rate", meaning a tax rate of x % on income above a certain threshold. For non-English speakers, probably the best solution would be to refer to a "50% tax rate on incomes above £ x". Marco polo (talk) 16:53, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

There is a distinction between a marginal tax rate and an effective tax rate. The former is the tax that the taxpayer pays on the next dollar of income, the latter is the percentage of their taxable income (income minus deductions, but before allowances) paid out as tax. The UK is remarkable amongst other English speaking countries in that one's effective tax rate is difficult to work out, for one thing because income tax is separated into two buckets - "income tax", and "national insurance". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:09, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I just had a sudden flash of inspiration about this. The benefit of the 'pence in the pound' notation is that you can easily describe the impact of a rise or fall in tax. This contrasts with percentages, which can be confusing. For instance, if the tax rate went from 40 percent/pence-in-the-pound to 50 percent/pence-in-the-pound, that's a 10p tax rise. But it is not a 10% tax rise - it's a 25% rise. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 22:36, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Or you could say it was a 10 percentage point increase. --Kjoonlee 09:41, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

But that's the point, in the UK it isn't a 10 percentage point increase for the reasons given above. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:47, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Is too. (See the article.) —Tamfang (talk) 08:56, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

A late tangential chip-in: this happens on other dialects of English as well. In addition to discussing tax rates and such, when selling something for significantly less than you paid for it it's common practice in the US to say the selling price as a number of cents per dollar of the purchase price: "Due to the economic crisis, the mortgage holder was lucky to sell his home for forty cents on the dollar." "A tax rate of 36 cents on the dollar for the top tax bracket is deemed excessive by economic conservatives." ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 19:58, 29 March 2012 (UTC)