Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 June 18

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June 18

Russian

Can someone translate this correctly? It's from the article about Maria Nagaya's family. "Предполагают, что этим возвышением Нагих и приближением семьи ко двору объясняется брак Ивана Грозного с Марией Фёдоровной Нагой[1], дочерью Фёдора Фёдоровича и двоюродной племянницей Евдокии Нагой. В XVI и начале XVII в. девять Нагих были боярами." and "Нагие — русский дворянский род, бояре и дворяне XIV—XVII веков, наиболее известным представителем которого является Мария Нагая, мать царевича Дмитрия Углицкого." Don't use google translate because the name of the family makes no since. What is the male form of Nagaya?--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 08:24, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• It is supposed that the marriage of Ivan the Terrible to Maria Fyodorovna Nagaya, daughter of Fyodor Fyodorovich and first cousin once removed of Evdokia Nagaya, can be explained by the rise of the Nagays Nagoys and the family becoming closer to the court. In the 16th and the beginning of the 17th centuries, nine Nagays Nagoys were boyars.

and

• The Nagays Nagoys were a Russian noble family, boyars and landowners of the 14th-17th centuries, the most famous representative of whom was Maria Nagaya, mother of the Tsarevich Dmitry of Uglich.

Also can someone translate correctly this title of this painting "«Царица Марфа обличает Лжедмитрия». Раскрашенная литография по эскизу В. Бабушкина, середина XIX века"--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 08:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• "Tsaritsa Marfa exposes the False Dmitry". Coloured lithograph in a sketch by V. Babushkin, middle of the 19th century.

I believe the above are reasonable translations. The male form of Nagaya is Nagay or Nagai, depending on which romanisation system you use Nagoy. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 21:50, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

One correction - the male form of Nagaya is Nagoy (Нагой), with stress on the "o". Apart from that, I second the translations.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 22:04, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I got the Nagay/Nagai thing from Maria Nagaya's father's name in her infobox. Maybe that needs fixing. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 22:16, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I was quite sure that the word нагой as a common noun was stressed on the last syllable, but in case the surname was different, as a non-native speaker, I also checked the ru.wiki article about Fyodor Mikhaylovich Nagoy-Nemoy, where stress is explicitly indicated. That's right, that's what the man was called ("Nude-and-Mute"), as if simply Nagoy (Nude) wasn't silly enough.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 22:38, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Those Russkies are quite keen on silly surnames: Griboyedov = mushroom-eater; Mokriy = wet. Many others. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 08:02, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Tsi-zhu in Osage

Resolved

What do 'tsi-zhu' and 'wha-zha-zhe' mean in Osage language?--Analphil (talk) 09:44, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Can you provide context? rʨanaɢ (talk) 16:35, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I've found the meanings by myself. They are names of divisions of Osage Nation. Anyway, thank you.--Analphil (talk) 17:53, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes -- a bit of Googling tells that tsi-zhu means "sky" and wha-zha-zhe (more commonly transliterated wah-sha-she) means "water people". Looie496 (talk) 18:29, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I've marked this question resolved. StuRat (talk) 20:43, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

salvationary?

A manuscript I am editing contains the sentence "Mahayana Buddhism emphasizes the compassionate and even salvationary aspect of Buddhism". Although the meaning is clear I don't like to allow words that are not in the OED, which gives "salvatory" but flags this as rare. Apparently "salutory" used to have this meaning but of course it no longer does. "Salvational" (also flagged as rare) and "salvific" are not much better. I am sure there is a more familiar term for this but I can't think of it. Does redemptive mean the same thing perhaps?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:52, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Would it be possible to just reword to something along the lines of "Mahayana Buddhism emphasizes compassion and salvation in Buddhism" or "Mahayana Buddhism emphasizes the aspects of Buddhism having to do with compassion and salvation"? rʨanaɢ (talk) 16:34, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure that "salvation" is really the best term in a Buddhist context? Our Buddhism article uses "liberation" (piped to Nirvana), so "liberating" might be a better word in the sentence. Tevildo (talk) 17:50, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Salvationary is perfectly cromulent, parallel in form to revolutionary. Salvational is fine, but sounds funny. Note how funny revolutional (!) sounds. Compare Latin, where the standard adjectival ending is -alis, which gives universal, magical, political from universe, magic, and politic. But we don't say similal, particulal, or solal, but instead similar, particular or solar. See dissimilation. μηδείς (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

See wikt:familial and wikt:familiar.—Wavelength (talk) 02:20, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the example occurred to me. Familial is a neologism of about 1900, while familiaris is good latin, and *familialis is not attested. μηδείς (talk) 21:56, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure that salvific is the normal word in Christian soteriology. From my limited knowledge of Buddhism, I didn't think it had such a concept, so I'm not sure why you need a word for it, but if you did, I think it would be salvific. --Trovatore (talk) 21:58, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

The choice of word depends on who the target audience is. But yes, the article on Mahayana Buddhism uses the word salvation. (I am quite familiar with the word salvific, but it still sounds like an adjective describing substances used to manufacture salves.) μηδείς (talk) 22:05, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, of course! There is a Balm in Gilead. --Trovatore (talk) 08:37, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

An awfully dangerous gift for a newborn. μηδείς (talk) 05:05, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

65'ers?

In Mr. Cab Driver, Lenny Kravitz sings something like:

Mr. Cab Driver passed me up with eyes of fire,

Mr. Cab Driver thinks we all want 65'ers.

What's a 65'er? JIP | Talk 20:38, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

It's "165-er's", a reference to 165th street in the Bronx. We don't have an article on that particular street, but we do have one on East 161st Street. Tevildo (talk) 21:02, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

So it's ...thinks we're all 165'ers? I've never been to New York City, but I have heard that there are many black people in the Bronx. Is the 165th Street somehow special in the Bronx to be worth a separate mention? JIP | Talk 21:10, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I just virtually drove down 165th Street in the Bronx thanks to Google Street View, and indeed practically everyone visible on the street is black. The street itself looks like a quiet, residential street, unlikely to have entered the public consciousness as a particularly dangerous street. (I agree that Tevildo's second explanation, given below, is more likely.) —Angr (talk) 21:27, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

An alternative explanation that I've just found (which is perhaps more plausible) is that it's a reference to a violation of Section 165.15 of the New York Statutes, "Theft of services". (See [1] for the text of the legislation). The implication is that the cab driver thinks black people are likely to abscond without paying their fares. Tevildo (talk) 21:14, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Kravitz is referring to the major cross street W165th in Harlem, which is a black neighbourhood, not in the Bronx, which is mostly Dominican. I have walked both. And the same reason would apply to both. The coincidence with the legislation Tevidlo points out is interesting, but just a coincidence. μηδείς (talk) 17:20, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Is there something special about W 165th Street that makes people who live there appear to be criminals, or is this just perceived irrational fear of Harlem residents on the part of the fictional cab driver? Or why did Kravitz point out just that street? JIP | Talk 19:04, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

It's in or near Harlem. It's where the Yankees played their first 12 seasons (Hilltop Park). It's where Bill Clinton went under the knife a few years ago (in the hospital, not in the streets). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:18, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

The fictional cab driver probably isn't scared of people living on the 165th Street because of the Yankees having played there or Bill Clinton having had surgery there. Is there something special about it in the context of getting a cab ride or did Kravitz just choose it because it rhymes with "fire"? JIP | Talk 17:48, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, it sort-of works, in that the cab driver assumes Mr Kravitz wants to go to Harlem because of his colour (cf the London equivalent "I'm not going south of the river at this time of night", before the passenger has given a destination). However, if there is some other significance, I'd like to know myself. Tevildo (talk) 18:59, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

West 165th is the northern border of Harlem, above that is Washington Heights. Harlem is 90% black. It is typical that taxis in lower Manhattan will not stop for uptown bound black males. Shorter fares are more lucrative and better tipping. They may not get a return passenger for the downtown trip. Violence, robbery and fare skipping are not rarities. I can't say that I don't know any black males who have done exactly what the taxi driver is afraid of, skip out on the fare. One of the tricks is to have a white friend hale the cab or to hale a cab going downtown and to tell him to turn around after you get in. μηδείς (talk) 21:51, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, Medeis, I can't parse all those negatives. Do you or do you not know black men who've skipped out on the fare? (And for the record, you hail a cab, not hale it.) —Angr (talk) 22:17, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Q: What's worse than raining cats and dogs? A: Hailing taxis. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:50, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, too many negatives, see if you can figure it out now. As for hale, its second sense is "drag, haul, summon, fetch, get", cognate to calare, so I plead technical correctness.

That is specific to Harlem, not specific to the 165th Street in particular. Is the only reason Kravitz sings ...we're all 165'ers instead of ...we're all Harlemians because "165'ers" rhymes with "fire"? JIP | Talk 19:14, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I would guess, given the forced nature of "eyes afire", and that he could have said 145er--where I was once falsely arrested--that he started with the notion of 165'er and came up with fire afterwards. μηδείς (talk) 05:03, 22 June 2011 (UTC)