Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 December 15

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December 15

Portuguese help

In this context:

• "REGISTERED OFFICE Aeroporto de Lisboa Reduto TAP, Edifício 25 – 8° 1704–801 Lisboa"

What does "reduto" mean Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 07:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

It seems to mean something vague like a demarcated area or enclosed space[1][2], possibly to be translated "area" or "zone". --Colapeninsula (talk) 11:12, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Here's a translation from TAP themselves: [3] - it's in the last paragraph: they've opted to translate it as "complex", as in "the company's complex". You can verify that this is the same phrase by clicking "Ver em Português" in the top right hand corner. I saw in passing (on google) other addresses for entities occupying different buildings within Reduto TAP. I might call this type of area a "site", myself - "the TAP site". (Literally, I expect it's the same word as redoubt, but that makes it sound a bit too exciting.)  Card Zero  (talk) 11:16, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I also think it's the same thing as redoubt, which in Romanian for example is redută and means the same thing as in English. In Portuguese it seems to have taken on another (or an additional) meaning. 80.122.178.68 (talk) 15:10, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! That was really helpful! WhisperToMe (talk) 17:23, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Meaning of the phrase 'You robbed the gentleman in 253, 5, 7 and 9'

In the film Trouble in Paradise 'Countess' says, 'Baron you are a crook.You robbed the gentleman in 253, 5, 7 and 9.' Does it mean that one gentlman occupied four rooms, or is it about four gentlmen, or what...? Thank you.~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seaweed71 (talk • contribs) 16:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

When pronounced in an unstressed, natural way, gentleman and gentlemen sound identical in many varieties of English. I suspect that the line that you heard really referred to gentlemen. Marco polo (talk) 17:35, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Vaguely related example in that it has to do with the man/men thing. When David Letterman debuted his CBS night show about 20 years ago, it was in the old Ed Sullivan theater. Somewhere they found a couple of clips of Ed saying "David" (as in David Frye, perhaps) and "Lettermen" (as in the singing group The Lettermen), and it was close enough to "Letterman" that it worked when they connected the two clips. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:42, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Swiss(?) German sign

What does this sign say? It was outside a fondue stall at the Frankfurt Weihnachtsmarkt and from the Swiss flag (and the fact it's advertising fondue), I'm assuming it's written either in Swiss German, or a German eye dialect interpretation of a Swiss accent. Judging from the fact that neither my dictionaries nor Google Translate makes much headway with it, I'm guessing the latter. I can guess bits and pieces - 4 is to do with tilting it 35 grad, 5 says "Cautiously take three bites" - but other bits are utterly incomprehensible to me (Jo nid in dr what?). So, what are the instructions for eating bread stuffed with melted cheese? (In case you can't see the picture, the relevant part says:

Fondue to go Chäsbänelässregle:

1. Bschtelle
2. Zahle
3. Guet und vor allem grad hebe
4. Imene Winkel vo 35 vor em Stand verbeuge
5. Vorsichtig dri bisse
6. Jo nid in dr Mitti, und scho gar nid unde afo ässe
7. Nid zue drugge!
8. Ä Wysse dzue bschtelle
9. Gniesse
10. Dr Nägscht bschtelle
11. Und wide s'ganz vo vorne

The rest is just Standard German)Smurrayinchester 22:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I can make out some more parts (I think it's real Swiss German). Bschtelle = Bestellen "order". Zahle = Zahlen "pay". Guet und vor allem grad hebe = Gut und vor allem gerade heben "Lift well [carefully?] and above all, level". Imene Winkel vo 35 vor em Stand verbeuge = Im Winkel von 35 [Grad] vor dem Stand verbeugen "Bend at a 35° angle over the stand" (i.e. bend forward yourself, don't tilt the food you're eating - see rule 3). Vorsichtig dri bisse = Vorsichtig darein beißen "Carefully bite into it" (nothing about "three"). Jo nid in dr Mitti, und scho gar nid unde afo ässe = Ja nicht in der Mitte, und schon gar nicht unten [afo?] essen "But not in the middle, and definitely don't eat it from the bottom up (???)". Nid zue drugge = Nicht zudrücken "Don't press it together". Ä Wysse dzue bschtelle = (I think) Eine Weiße dazu bestellen "Order a Weißbier to go with it". Gniesse = Genießen "Enjoy". Dr Nägscht bschtelle = Die Nächste bestellen "Order the next one". Und wide s'ganz vo vorne = Und wieder das Ganze von vorne "And start the whole thing over again". Improvements to this translation requested! Angr (talk) 23:37, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Your translation looks correct to me. I have lived in Freiburg im Breisgau for many years, where the local dialect is also a form of Alemannic German. But I don't understand "Bäneläss" (0 Google hits), so I can only translate "Chäsbänelässregle" incompletely as "cheese Bäneläss rules". Hans Adler 00:16, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

PS: I think, "afo" means "davon". So I have this minor correction: "Jo nid in dr Mitti, und scho gar nid unde afo ässe" = "Bloß nicht in der Mitte, und schon gar nicht unten davon essen" = "Make sure not to eat of it in the middle, and certainly not at the bottom". Hans Adler 00:21, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

OK, more on "Chäsbänelässregle". I parsed it incorrectly at first: Chäs = cheese, Bänel = ??, äss = eat[ing], regle = rules. Bänel doesn't seem to occur often in written dialect. I found the meanings Bähnel (little train) and Bändel (piece of string for tying something). If I had to pick between the two I would guess that this is from a "fondue train", whatever that is. Hans Adler 00:32, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

And starting from the email address at the bottom right of your sign, I think I have located the little cheese train on second photo here. Hans Adler 00:35, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

If no Swiss German speaker answers, I will give it a try: 3. guet (good) covers a wide range of meanings, hebe is in standard German: (lift), but here: (hold). Ususally you would tell a child: guet ... hebe (hold well, take a good grip on it). 4. Imene Winkel - in einem Winkel - (at an angle). 4. vor em Stand (in front of the booth). 6. afo esse - anfangen essen - (start eat). 8. Ä Wysse - einen Weissen (?) - (a white one, presumably here: a white wine). Order 'ä Wysse' and see what you get. In Saarland where I live they would give you a Bratwurst (fried sausage), which is not meant here. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 08:13, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Good points. Wysse is a "white one". I think in Switzerland that's most likely to be a white wine, which makes a lot more sense in a fondue context anyway. I also missed the mistranslation for "vor em Stand". I didn't want to believe your translation of "afo esse" as "anfangen zu essen" at first because I felt it would have had to be "afo z'esse", but a search on the Alemannic Wikipedia shows that you got the grammar right: [4] Hans Adler 09:36, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

A good link, als:Weisswein has an example of Wysse for white wine. The last mystery can be resolved with an alternative version of the whole text: (only in Google cache, [5]) where it is called in Basel Swiss German Chäsbängel and this is explained here as a baguette filled with hot garlic cheese fondue that goes with hot white wine. The mysterious word Bängel means stick. Adelung's dictionary explains its etymology as a diminutive of Bang (stick), Grimm's dictionary as a derivative of bang (to bang) and the Alsatian dictionary yields Bëngel (stick) and also a variant of Bändel (string). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 10:15, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I admit, white wine for "ä Wysse" never occurred to me. I fluctuated between Weißbier and Weißwurst and decided beer was more likely in this context, but now I agree that white wine is more likely still. That afo is Alemannic for anfangen is very interesting; presumably then fo is Alemannic for fangen, which is very similar to Old English fōn and Danish/Norwegian/Swedish få. Angr (talk) 12:23, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

afo for anfangen (presumably the pronunciation is more like afå) looks like a pretty regular derivation to me. The last syllable got lost completely (this is what I didn't expect, but I am more used to Alemannic speakers who are more strongly influenced by standard German), and the second syllable was nasalised, getting rid of the ng. Hans Adler 12:28, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. What's Alemannic for singen and bringen? Angr (talk) 12:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Singe and bringe, I believe. That's not so surprising because I don't think -ing would get nasalised. More significantly, verlangen is verlange. That may be to avoid a clash with verlassen, verla. But I am in no way qualified for all these speculations. Hans Adler 13:53, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I think it's more likely that fo comes directly from Old High German fahan or something like it, rather than Modern High German fangen. Angr (talk) 14:21, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. I didn't realise quite how different Swiss German could be from German German. Smurrayinchester 13:35, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I believe the variance between German dialects is significantly greater than that between English dialects, and according to a newspaper article that I read a year ago or so, the German-speaking Swiss started using their dialect in many contexts where they previously used standard German due to the bad connotations of standard German during the Second World War. Hans Adler 13:57, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

It's really only for non-linguistic reasons that Swiss German is considered a dialect of German while Dutch isn't. If standard German hadn't been the written language and language of education in German-speaking Switzerland for so long, Swiss German would probably be called simply "Swiss" and no one would consider it anything other than a completely separate language. Angr (talk) 14:21, 16 December 2011 (UTC)