Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 September 8

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September 8

Japanese pronunciation

At Japanese language it says:

Some Japanese consonants have several allophones, which may give the impression of a larger inventory of sounds. However, some of these allophones have since become phonemic. For example, in the Japanese language up to and including the first half of the 20th century, the phonemic sequence /ti/ was palatalized and realized phonetically as [tɕi], approximately chi listen^ⓘ; however, now /ti/ and /tɕi/ are distinct, as evidenced by words like tī [tiː] "Western style tea" and chii [tɕii] "social status".

Have these distinctions evolved only to allow loanwords (especially English loanwords) to be pronounced more accurately, or do they affect native words too? For example, are any native Japanese words now pronounced with /ti/ as distinct from /tɕi/? 86.184.238.200 (talk) 11:52, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

The /ti/ does exist in native words, but only jokingly or when spoken childishly. Same with /si/ (actually many people pronounce this more like /sɯi/). Both of these sounds, however, do exist in modern Okinawan dialect/language. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:16, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Do you know whether the joking/childish /ti/ and /si/ pronunciations (as opposed to the pronunciations in loanwords) has also arisen only since the second half of the 20th century? Do you think it is under the influence of sounds appearing in loanwords, or do you see it as a separate phenomenon? 86.185.79.68 (talk) 18:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC).

I don't know if they are entirely separate, but I will hazard a guess at the appearance in loanwords, plus the wider availability of foreign language education in recent years, certainly have had some influence. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:09, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think I know any Japanese people who can pronounce or hear /si/ as distinct from /ɕi/. I also know people who can't pronounce ふぁ differently from は. Paul Davidson (talk) 07:42, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I knew a girl whose name was 'Yoshi', and her friends always called her 'Yossii' (with a slight glide between the 's' and 'i'. In fact, I knew plenty of people with such nicknames. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:09, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Xury

In Robinson Crusoe, there is a Moor boy named Xury. May someone know how his name is pronounced in Arabic or English? Thanks. --Omidinist (talk) 13:43, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

If the spelling is meant to be English, then [z] would be the most traditional pronunciation; if it's meant to be Portuguese, then presumably [š] would be most likely... AnonMoos (talk) 16:18, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I found two books stating that Xury is "a name that suggests usury" [1] [2]. I don't know whether these were Defoe's intentions, but if so, another possible pronunciation of the initial 'X' could be a voiced postalveolar fricative (like the 's' in "usury" or "vision"). ---Sluzzelin talk 18:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

However, I really don't think that [ž] occurred in the most common or standard English pronunciation of the word "Usury" around the beginning of the 1700s... AnonMoos (talk) 19:07, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

After a google search: [3] suggests "zoo-ri"; This one is hard to decipher, but seems to give it a "z" and a vowel that is found in French and Dutch. Lexicografía (talk) 19:34, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Looks like those are from two different editions of the same book. They both indicate ZYOO-ree (like the word "fury" with a z instead of f).--Cam (talk) 23:53, 8 September 2010 (UTC)