Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 May 13

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May 13

Atreyu

What does "seven-piece" mean: flogging molly?68.148.149.184 (talk) 06:37, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

It means consisting of seven members.--80.3.133.106 (talk) 09:21, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

For example here. Lanfear's Bane | t 10:10, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Slightly related, why is Beethoven's Septet called a 'septet' when it only has 6 movements, rather than 7?--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 12:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Because it is played by an ensemble consisting of seven instruments. - Nunh-huh 13:07, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

(... which is a septet. 13:36, 13 May 2009 (UTC))

What does the question have to do with whatever "Atreyu" is? -- JackofOz (talk) 20:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Because presumably the band had seven members at one point.--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 03:46, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The OP is asking about the article on flogging molly. I am not sure why Atreyu was posted, but they were never a seven member band. cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 18:22, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I thought 'flogging molly' was part of the username.--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 01:41, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Haha, it should be Arteyu. LOL Arteyu ? _{Blame it on me !} 09:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Are traditional British vulgar terms being replaced with Americanisms?

Terms such as 'arse, bloody, wanker, bollocks'... are they dying out? Certainly they seem to be.--Pipelinefine (talk) 12:43, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Not where I'm from (Liverpool) they're not.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 12:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

And I would say, definitely not, in the south of England. Although I am not from Britain, I have been living in Britain for seven years, and can safely say that these terms are still often used and one of the defining characteristics of British English. They were new to me when I came here, but it was only a very short period of time before I considered a whole range of peculiar British vulgarities as commonplace. Maedin\^talk 13:00, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Dunno where you are, but where I am (Midlands) they're alive and well. The only thing I can see is the F word being used more often. The traditional vulgar terms that are dying out are euphemisms, such as bally, bleeding, goot'eck, nincompoop.... --TammyMoet (talk) 13:07, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Some are even spreading to America - I never heard "wank" in the U.S. when I was a teenager (I remember having no idea what "Falls wanking to the floor" in "Time" meant), but I get the impression it's fairly well known nowadays. +Angr 13:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd say you're right. I've said "bloody hell" and "bugger" myself on occasion, and my impression is that most Americans are familiar with those terms as well as "wanker" and "bollocks". I'm not sure about "arse", though. I might not be the best "sample", though, because I talk to British people online a lot. --Miskwito (talk) 22:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I think that Spike (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) and similar characters have had an influence on the spread of such slang to the the United States. Not that there's anything wrong with that; I've always been fond of introducing outmoded and alien slang into conversation. I even like to refer to things as the cat's pajamas on occasion. Deor (talk) 22:56, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the OP feels that way because it's not heard so much on telly these days, except after 9pm but even then it's not used much. There has been a lot of public backlash to the BBC for celebrities using the F-word, so they are trying to tone down the language a bit, lest they get 'suspended' (but never sacked - they are worth too much). I would have sacked Jonathan Ross and that other feller that was with him for that obscene phone call they made live on radio, but, they bring the company too many listeners for that so they suspended them. Other celebrities are fearing this outcome and so are toning down their language. Americanisms do seem to be more common on telly these days, however, but not among the general public.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 21:02, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Not in Australia they're not. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

True. In Australia 'bloody', at least, is not considered vulgar at all. It's even used on adverts (banned in the UK)--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 06:19, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I had an amusing experience with an American mate I worked with in Japan. I had to do something really tedious, and I turned round and said to him and said, "Oh, I can't be arsed doing this," and he turned to me and said, ever-so emphatically "I wouldn't even be BOTHERED!" He'd thought I'd been using RP English for 'asked'! He totally misunderstood what I said. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 07:04, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Define irony

Hi all. I'm stuck on the definition of irony. I've read irony, and I've searched the ref desk archives but I still haven't got a grasp on what irony is and what it isn't. Does anyone have some good, tight, examples of what is and what isn't irony? Why, for example, is "10000 spoons when all you need is a knife" not irony? Thanks. Aaadddaaammm (talk) 14:27, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

• You could start with dictionary definitions (assuming you haven't allready) see wikitionary's entry for example irony. All sarcasm is irony but not all irony is sarcastic. A classic example of irony is :

“ The hunter has become the hunted ”

Hope this helps --Drogonov (talk) 19:26, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

• • It's when something occurs which is contrary to what you would expect. The spoons and knife quote isn't irony because it isn't an event occurring which is contrary to what we would expect. Examples:

• • • A King spends all of his vast resources on weapons and troops to defend himself against his hated neighbor, only to see his kingdom fall to a deadly plague. The expectation here is that death will come from an army, but, contrary to expectations, a plague comes. The irony could increase if, say, the plague was brought into his country by infected mercenary troops he had hired. The group he expects to defend his country ends up destroying it.

• • • (This one is more humorous and based on an O. Henry story.) A bum desperate to find a warm place to stay for the winter, robs and steals in front of cops repeatedly, trying to get arrested and sent to jail. However, he is never arrested. Exasperated, he decides to change his ways and goes to a church. He kneels to pray in the courtyard and is arrested for trespassing. One would expect the bum to be arrested for stealing, but, ironically, he is arrested just as he begins to change his lawless ways.

• • Irony, according to wiktionary, can also be when someone says something while meaning the opposite. This is harder to give examples of in print, as it comes across more clearly in speech, but I'll give it a try:

• • • Children say to their dad, ironically, "But dad, we like brussel sprouts! Is there any way we can have more? We just can't get enough of them! We want them sooo bad it's making us ill!"

• • • Another example with children. "Is there any way we can skip Christmas this year? I mean, we don't really want presents or candy canes or stockings or taffy or cookies anyway." Wrad (talk) 20:28, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

More simply (as the shipwrecked sailor bemoaned), “water, water everywhere, and not a drop to drink.” DOR (HK) (talk) 06:19, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

OK thanks for the replies so far, I'm starting to come to grips with this (surprisingly) subtle concept. I see parallels between “water, water everywhere, and not a drop to drink.” and "10k spoons when all you need is a knife". Is the water quote ironic because it's generally expected that water is good for drinking, in contrast to the Alanis quote because spoons are no good for cutting? Your examples, Wrad, sound like reverse psychology to me, how is this ironic? Aaadddaaammm (talk) 12:58, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

It's saying one thing while meaning the opposite. That's one definition of irony. Wrad (talk) 14:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm no irony expert, but my understanding is that most of the criticisms about things not being irony (e.g. the Morissette song) are due to people who hew to the original meaning of "irony", which is referred to as "dramatic irony" in our irony article. That is, the literary situation where the implied meaning of events visible to the characters in a book/play is different from the full meaning of events as known by the audience, due to the audience knowing something the characters don't. This is usually manifested by events that don't play out as the characters expect, but do happen as the omniscient audience expects they would. Over time the meaning has drifted to include more of the "cosmic irony"/"situational irony" meaning, where instead of the knowing audience and unknowing characters, it's a contrast between the expected outcomes of "the Fates" (or the universe in general), and of the ignorant humans. The core of irony is the contrast between the outcome expected by the ignorant party, and the actual outcome, which has deeper meaning to the enlightened party. The argument would be that "It's like rain on your wedding day" is not ironic, because there should not have been any expectation that a particular day would be rain-free. "10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife" is a bit more of an edge case, but would definitely fall under the "not ironic" category unless there was some reasonable expectation that a knife should have been found. Even then, the term "irony" is usually reserved for cases where some sort of moral lessons is involved, or the difference between expected and actual outcomes is "fitting" given the extra knowledge that the omniscient party has. For example, if you're simply not finding a knife in the cutlery drawer, there's no real "twist" to that, so it really isn't irony. However, if, being tired of never finding a knife when you need one, you explicitly buy a box of "10,000 pieces of mixed flatware" so you never have that problem again, only to come home and find the box contains nothing but spoons, that would be "cosmic irony". The fates have toyed with you, so that your naive expectations (that the box would contain ~3,000 knives) would not match up with reality (no knives), in a way that's particularly "fits" your situation (you bought the box explicitly for the knives). -- 128.104.112.117 (talk) 15:02, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I should note that the Fates, being greco-roman gods, particularly like punishing humans showing hubris. In my flatware example above, if one were to purchase just a 10-pack that was all spoons, or to purchase the 10,000 pack simply because it was a good deal, it probably wouldn't be irony, just bad luck. It's the hubris of purchasing the 10,000 pack so it never happens again, followed by the comeuppance which follows which makes that example irony. -- 128.104.112.117 (talk) 15:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Voiceless uvular trill

Does it exist in any language? 88.72.70.47 (talk) 19:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd be surprised if it were a phoneme of any language, but I can imagine it exists as a devoiced allophone of a voiced uvular trill. For example, I can imagine there are varieties of German where tragen is pronounced [tʀ̥aːɡn̩]. +Angr 21:38, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Harry Potter

I've found this German site ([[1]]) that gives translations of Harry Potter's characters. Among the others, there are references to Sorbian, Scottish Gaelic and Swahili, that aren't listed in this article. I've also found this Spanish site ([[2]]) stating that an Asturian, not listed in that page, does exist. It's also stated in the Asturian Wikipedia (Los seis primeros llibros tienen vendío más de 325 millones de copies en total y traduciéronlos a 64 llingües, incluyendo l'asturianu.). It would be amazing if anyone could verify this and add refernces to Wikipedia. --151.51.41.189 (talk) 19:34, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

You should probably raise this issue with Wikipedia:WikiProject Harry Potter. LadyofShalott 16:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)