Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 April 13

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April 13

Created language

Has there ever been a case where two people--let's call them Romulus and Remus--grew up deprived from human contact and created a language that only they knew or at least been apparently able to communicate fully with each other but not with others around them? I don't mean languages invented like Esperanto but something from more like feral children (even if their "feral" upbringing was really just terrible mistreatment such as her). zafiroblue05 | Talk 03:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Idioglossia is a private, invented language. Poto and Cabengo (referred to in the article as the Kennedy twins) seem to be close to what you're after. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Nicaraguan Sign Language is not exactly an example, but it is rather similar. --ColinFine (talk) 09:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Christ is risen

How would you translate 'Christ is risen' into Spanish? Obviously 'Cristo' + some form of 'levantar', but the tense is confusing me. 72.200.101.17 (talk) 03:11, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

"Christ is risen" is meant to indicate "right now, in the present", as part of the annual-renewal symbolism of the Easter celebration. I can't think but that the phrase would be in the same tense in any language. For what it's worth, Babelfish says the Spanish would be: Se levanta Cristo. // BL \\ (talk) 03:23, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

At http://multilingualbible.com/1_corinthians/15-20.htm, you can see five Spanish translations (one in the first column and four in the third column) and the Early Modern English perfect passive is ... risen in the Authorized King James Version in the first column.

-- Wavelength (talk) 03:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I am striking out the expression "perfect passive". -- Wavelength (talk) 03:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

At the Orthodox Wiki's article "Paschal Greeting" [1], the Spanish form is presented as Cristo ha resucitado!, as in Wavelength's link.

Apparently, Christ is risen as in AKJV 1 Co 15:20, is better translated as Cristo ha resucitado (tense similar to the present perfect). In this aspect, a past action (reviving) has effects still in conection with present times.
However, taken in isolation, the phrase Christ is risen would be normally translated as Cristo resucita, and has the continuous and recurrent aspect mentioned by BL. Pallida  Mors 21:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

See Consubstantiation and Transubstantiation. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

French translations: 2

In a particular context, how would I say "I have three here and four at home."? Would the translation be, "J'en ai trois ici et en ai quatre chez moi."? I am unsure of the use of "ici" because the translation seems to literal, and I am also unsure of the use of "en ai quatre chez moi". Would it also be correct and redundant to say, "J'en ai trois ici et j'en ai quatre chez moi."? What would be the best way to express this? Note that, this is not homework - I am independently learning French from "Heath's Practical French Grammar" and have absolutely no-one to converse with or ask for help. I therefore come here if I am unsure of some translations. Thankyou for your help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 06:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

What is the particular context? -- Wavelength (talk) 06:42, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

A person having asked you where your boxes are. It doesn't really matter though for the purposes of this translation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 07:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

You're right, the context doesn't matter and I don't know why Wavelength asked for it. It sounds like a casual conversation to me, so I would say that "J'ai trois ici et quatre chez moi" would be fine. You don't need the "en" in the first part or the "en ai" in the second. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I asked for it only because the original poster began by saying In a particular context, implying that it did matter, although I knew that I would receive a big surprise if I learned that there was actually a particular context where it did matter.

-- Wavelength (talk) 07:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Richard. My textbook is from 1901 and according to it, one must always use "en" when "some" is an object. When "some" is used as in "I have some books" then it is "de" + "definite article". Is this correct? I am just concerned whether things have changed since 1901 (so to say "I have none", would it be "Je n'en ai pas"?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 08:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I think you would be fine in conversation without the en. Written French would require it. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:51, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Apologies for asking too many questions but what would be the best way to express, "I have three here and four at home", in writing (if you were to write such a thing in literature)? I am unsure between the following:

a) J'en ai trois ici et quatre chez moi.

b) J'en ai trois ici et j'en ai quatre chez moi.

c) J'en ai trois ici et en quatre chez moi.

Thanks again! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 10:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Don't apologise, it's what we're here for. In writing I would go with (a), unless you want to be really emphatic about it, in which case you could go with (b). (c) doesn't sound right to me. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:24, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

One name for "en" is the partitive prounoun (often literalistically translatable as "of it", "of them" etc.). The words "en" and "y" as pronouns always need to be closely connected to a verb, usually preceding it (just like other clitic pronouns, such as me, te, se etc.), so sentences such as (c) are right out... AnonMoos (talk) 11:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I am utterly unable to formalise the structure of a language, French included, however, that's my native language, so I guess I can help:

• "J'en ai trois ici et quatre chez moi" sounds natural ("I have three of them here and four at home")
• "J'en ai trois ici et j'en ai quatre chez moi" is correct but needlessly repetitive ("I have three of them here and I have four of them at home")
• "J'ai trois ici et quatre chez moi" omits the object which does not work in French (sounds like "I have three of here and four at home").
• "J'en ai trois ici et en quatre chez moi" is missing the verb for which there is an object "en" which does not work either (sounds like "I have three of them here and I four of them at home" - though here it's the subject begging for a verb).

Equendil Talk 14:07, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Seeking children's book for beginner learner of Italian

I recall seeing cartoon-like books that are for beginner children learning french, maybe mostly about vocablurary. Can anyone give the title of anything similar for learning Italian please. preferably from British English? 78.147.153.8 (talk) 10:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

There is Let's Learn ITALIAN Picture Dictionary. I found it by doing a Google search for the search string "italian picture dictionary".

-- Wavelength (talk) 15:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I made a mistake in my comment. The search string was "italian picture vocabulary". -- Wavelength (talk) 17:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I wonder whether you're thinking of Usborne Books' First Thousand Words in ... series? They cover many different languages. First Thousand Words in Italian is still in print; see here. Karenjc 18:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Even though the sentence which begins I wonder ... seems to imply a question, it functions grammatically as a statement, so the punctuation at the end should be a period instead of a question mark. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

In British english, you mean a full stop. 78.146.249.32 (talk) 12:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I probably was thinking of the Usborne Books. I'd also be interested in any other books to teach Italian to young children. Thanks. 78.146.249.32 (talk) 12:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm almost certain you were thinking of the Usborne books. They were ubiquitous a few years ago, and I still see them everywhere. Certainly the 'for beginners' range was identical for each language (apart from the language used, obviously!), leading to a strange experience if you'd learnt French with them and then tried to learn another language. Oh, that hamster! Interestingly, the 'First 1000 Words' in Italian looks more up-to-date than the French one, which is still looks the same as half the books on my primary school shelves.

As a child, I found the Usborne Beginners book engaging and fun (particularly taking it about a page a session with someone else, with plenty of recapping), but found the First 1000 Words book daunting. It only provides a basic beginning, but it's a fairly good place to start gently.

At the more expensive end, this sounds fun. For most uses though, you're probably best off just starting with the Usborne and making it light-hearted and fun. If it doesn't work out, you've only spent about a fiver and probably haven't put them off the language. (Oooo, also don't underestimate the power of rhythm, song and actions when learning this stuff. Pick a nursery rhyme or spontaneously set something you're learning to a chant or tune. Either way is fun and memorable) 80.41.73.141 (talk) 00:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Can someone covert this to english? I nicked it from the image page as it seemed more appropriate here

L'ARRIVEE DES SŒURS A ALEXANDRIE En 1917, trois sœurs arrivent à Alexandrie, répondant à une demande de Mgr Briante, faite par télégramme "urgent", pour le soin des blessés de la première guerre mondiale,dans une clinique appartenant à un médecin français. Après la guerre cette œuvre sera bien vite remplacée par une école.

NAISSANCE DU PROJET En 1923, est formé le projet d'une école (avec un pensionnat annexe). Celle-ci appartenant à la Communauté Grecque Catholique, est située à Abou Dardar. C'est en 1932 que naît le projet d'une construction plus grande, pour l'école devenue trop petite. Achat du terrain et construction sont décidés, dans le quartier neuf de Chatby, en face du Collège Saint Marc.

OUVERTURE DE L'ECOLE Le 31 mai 1933, Mgr Nuti, vicaire apostolique latin d'Alexandrie, autorise l'ouverture d'un orphelinat gratuit, pensionnat, école au quartier de Chatby. C'est en 1934 que l'école sera en mesure d'assurer ses objectifs. Les élèves étaient surtout des jeunes filles d'origine étrangère dont les colonies étaient nombreuses, à l'époque, à Alexandrie : grecque, italienne, allemande, française, arménienne...etc Ces différentes colonies avaient leurs propres quartiers et composaient la population alexandrine. Aprés leur disparition, dans les années soixantes, l' école est devenue au service d' élèves toutes égyptiennes. La communauté religieuse comprenait alors 17 sœurs. En 1991, un Centre a été construit dans le jardin, c'est le "Centre de l'Amour" pour les enfants handicapés.

L'ECOLE AUJOURD'HUI L'école, aujourd'hui, comprend 999 élèves,38 PS,38 CA allant du Jardin d'Enfants aux classes terminales; ces filles viennent de divers milieux sociaux: classe aisée, classe moyenne, enfants d'employés et cas sociaux. La Direction est confiée à Madame Marie-Thérèse DAROUS, ancienne élève de l'école. L'Enseignement est assuré par des laïcs. Les Religieuses les accompagnent dans leur vocation éducative et donnent un souffle spirituel et éducatif à l'établissement. Elles assurent surtout le souffle donné à la catéchèse et tiennent une grande place dans l'organisation et l'administration .

LES OBJECTIFS DE L'ECOLE L'objectif de l'école est l'éducation et l'instruction de jeunes filles égyptiennes, de toutes classes sociales dans la plus grande tolérance. Les professeurs dispensent un enseignement des langues : arabe, français, anglais et de toutes les disciplines académiques prévues par le Ministère Egyptien de l'Education et de l'Enseignement. L'école tient à la formation de toute la personne, c'est pourquoi elle favorise les activités culturelles, sportives, artistiques et sociales. Un autre objectif important est l'éducation que l'école privilégie, en collaboration avec les parents, car ces jeunes sont les femmes, les mères de demain et préparent l'avenir du pays.

I deem this block of text be more useful on the article page instead of the image page, can someone please help as I am a complete novice in french. Gsmgm (talk) 14:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

In turn, they nicked it from http://membres.lycos.fr/antide/ecole.html. I suppose we could translate it, but you wouldn't be able to use such translation in our article anyway. No such user (talk) 14:43, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Someone more qualified in French can continue, but I think it begins:

THE ARRIVAL OF THE SISTERS TO ALEXANDRIA In 1917, three sisters [likely refers to nuns] arrived at Alexandria in response to a request from Mr. Briante, made by an "urgent" telegram.

I'm not really qualified to make a full accurate translation, but it looks like this is about a girls' Catholic school and/or orphanage in Egypt, its founding, and goals. 68.227.202.7 (talk) 14:48, 13 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.227.202.7 (talk) 14:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Alright, after viewing the original source, I deem this block of text(althou useful) is perhaps a blatant copyright infringement, and hereby closing this topic. Gsmgm (talk) 17:00, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Here is a translation:

Arrival of the sisters in Alexandria. In 1917, three sisters came to Alexandria, responding to a request from Mgr (Monseigneur?) Briante in an "urgent" telegram, to care for the wounded of the first world war, in a clinic belonging to a French physician. After the war, this charity was soon replaced by a school.

Birth of the project. In 1923, the project of a boarding school was formed. The school, belonging to the Greek Catholic Community, was located in Abou Dardar. In 1932, a project for a bigger edifice for the school deemed too small was born. Purchase of the land and construction were decided, the school would be in the quartier neuf de Chatby, facing the Saint Marc College.

Opening of the school. On the 31st of May 1933, Mgr Nuti, latin apostolic vicar of Alexandria, approved the opening of a free orphanage and boarding school in the quartier de Chatby. In 1934, the school could fullfil its objectives. Pupils were primarily young girls of foreign origin from the colonies that existed at the time in Alexandria : Greek, Italian, German, French, Armenian etc. Those various colonies each had their quarters and composed the population of Alexandria. Following their disappearance in the 60's, the school became at the service of egyptian only pupils. The religious community was then comprised of 17 sisters. In 1991, a Centre was built in the garden, the "Centre de l'Amour" for disabled children.

The school today. Nowadays, the school hosts 999 pupils, from kindergarten to high school; those girls come from various social classes: wealthy, middle class, working class, and welfare cases. The Direction is accorded to Madame Marie-Thérèse DAROUS, former student of the school. Teaching is provided by a laic staff. The nuns support them in their educative purpose, and bring a spiritual and educative touch to the institution. They most notably run the catéchèse (religious schooling) and hold an important place in the organisation and administration.

Objectives of the school. The objective of the shool is to educate and instruct the young egyptian girls of all social classes in the greatest tolerance. Languages are taught: Arabic, French, English in addition to all academic disciplines prescribed by the Egyptian Minister of Education. The school aims to provide a full development of the individual, therefore it favours cultural, sportive, artistic, and social activities, in collaboration with parents, because those pupils are the women, the mothers of tomorrow and the future of the country.

Might need some better phrasing, but then again, it's technically a copyvio, so I'm just translating for the information therein. Equendil Talk 17:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Mgr. is Monsignor. Livewireo (talk) 14:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Need to write down Hindi script

I've made a transliteration of a Roman letter word into Devanagari script on a few websites and I've managed to get a result, but when I try to copy-paste it into MS Word 03 (it pastes as-is everywhere else!!) it appears as lots of boxes. Now I've tried to do this before and I've been able to use Insert>Symbol with the font Mangal to replicate what the result was manually, but with this word I cannot do that. Um, can someone tell me how I can paste it properly, or what order and number of symbols I need to input to get it? The transliteration is आर्चोएस्त्ररेल. It should be coming out as 'Arcoestrela' or similar, although I'm aware it probably is vaguely incorrect; I know the theory of how Devanagari works but unfortunately I do not know how to read it myself. I've reposted this from the Humanities desk as I missed the Language desk (silly) and not sure whether I should do likewise for the Computing desk. Lady BlahDeBlah (talk) 22:14, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

It appears to be correct except that the 'c', which (pronounced here as /k/) ought to become क, appears as च (palatal /č/, represented in Sanskrit transcription as 'c'); and you might want an explicit 'ã' at the end. —Tamfang (talk) 01:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Whups, the second /r/ appears twice; should be ...एस्त्रेल. (I haven't found a way to insert the /k/.) —Tamfang (talk) 04:02, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure what the problem is from your description (and it more belongs to the Computing desk), but here's a try. Open Control panel/Regional options. There you should see "Languages" tab; at its bottom, there are 2 check boxes in a group box "Supplemental language support". If they're unchecked, do check them (however, you may be asked to insert a Setup CD); otherwise, I'm not sure... When you check them, you should be able to see East Asian scripts in all programs, with all common fonts. No such user (talk) 06:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)