Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 October 10

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

October 10

Anglicisms in other languages

Why do other languages take the an English word in the gerund and use it as a noun? For example, in France: one parks his car at the parking or gets a shampooing. Thanks, Lazulilasher (talk) 01:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's an example from the French wiki Parking: Les parkings sont souvent choisis comme lieu d’action dans les œuvres culturelles telles que les films et les jeux vidéo. (Parking lots are often used for actions scenes in cultural works such as fims and video games") Lazulilasher (talk) 01:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Russian has смокинг (smoking), meaning a dinner jacket or tux. It's derived from "smoking jacket". I guess every language does things its own way, and some just happen to do it this way, sometimes. There's probably a better explanation. --JackofOz (talk) 01:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Smoking is used exactly like that in Norwegian, Swedish, Danish and possibly Finnish as well (although the kilts in the image in the Finnish article seem somewhat strange to me...) --NorwegianBlue ^talk 20:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC).

As an aside, I once read in a book of patterns for men's clothes from circa 1900 that sometime in the 19th century the "smoking jacket" used to perform the same function as the dinner jacket does now, ie. it was worn to informal dinner parties, and the theatre if it's not a premiere, etc. Hence the name "smoking" for the d. j. in several foreign languages. Unfortunately I haven't the book on hand so I daren't put this in the article "Smoking jacket". But I do dare put it here. It does square with the history of the dinner jacket as described in our article.--Rallette (talk) 10:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

"Un smoking" is French, too. I think "un smoking" refers to a tux, though, in French. The Jade Knight (talk) 04:55, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

My view (sorry I don't have a reference book to prove it) is that, most of the time, it is simply an abbreviation of a longer phrase, and the phrase is too long to remember for someone who does not understand it, but the first part sticks and enters the language. A parking lot -> un parking, some shampooing cream -> du shampooing, a smoking jacket -> un smoking. There may be exceptions to that rule, but quite recently (I mean recently from a language life point of view, at the end of the 1990s), you could hear, on the French radio channels for youngsters, some pop music commentators that were talking about "les smashing"... they were talking about the smashing pumpkins, but were lazy enough not to make the effort to pronounce the whole band name. I think it simply starts that way. --Lgriot (talk) 06:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Nevertheless, Franglais has an inordinate fondness for the -ing ending. I think it's at least partially attributable to the fact that French doesn't have the /ŋ/ sound in native words, so using it emphasizes a word's Englishness. —Angr 06:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Erm. The French speak French, not "Franglais", and couldn't care less about the Englishness of "parking" or "shampooing", which they pronounce /ʃɑ̃.pwɛ̃/ anyway. Equendil Talk 09:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The French speak Franglais as well as French. --Kjoonlee 23:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm French but thanks for telling me what I speak. The French borrow words from other languages, it's hardly unheard of and doesn't constitute a whole new brand of language. Back to words ending in "ing", Lgriot above is likely on to something, though I would also point out that nouns ending in "ing" is a relatively common construction in English in the first place: marketing, merchandising, trading, awakening, dealing, fencing, accounting, reporting, acting ... just a few instances, the first two are used in French. Equendil Talk 00:28, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Not really. Franglais in that sense is a way of referring to the use of certain anglicisms in French. But they're still speaking what they consider to be modern-day French, and would probably vehemently deny they're speaking Franglais. Wars have been fought over less. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Hm, I wouldn't call Franglais to be a distinct language or anything like that. Konglish isn't Korean, after all. --Kjoonlee 02:00, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Saline solution or water?

Which is more conductive of electricity, water or salt water?--Ye Olde Luke (talk) 05:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

This is the language reference desk. The science desk is down the hall and to the right. —Angr 05:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

But saline solutions conduct electricity better, thanks to the sodium and chlorine ions. --Kjoonlee 07:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Wait a sec, is this a trick question about language? Salt water is also water. ;) --Kjoonlee 07:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Translation request: English → Esperanto

Could someone please translate one of the following, for an image caption?

English:
a) Stephon Marbury prepares to shoot a free throw.
b) Stephon Marbury at the free throw line.

Thank you~ Louis Waweru  Talk  14:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Esperanto:

a) Stephon Marbury preparas pafi ŝoton liberan liberan ĵeton.

b) Stephon Marbury ĉe la linio de ŝoto libera liberĵeta linio.--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 01:26, 11 October 2008 (UTC) Scratch that. I had a look at Esperanto's article on basketball and found better terms for free throw and the line.--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 01:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Cool, interesting language. Thank you~ Louis Waweru  Talk  10:51, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Is pafi used in that broad sense? I'd have guessed it's only for firearms. —Tamfang (talk) 04:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I see that eo:Korbopilkado does not use paf–. In this context how about preni? —Tamfang (talk) 05:34, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Translation from Italian requested

The following appears without translation on the Antonio Beccadellipage. Can anyone give a good translation?

IN QUESTO

CHE FU ANTICO PALAZZO

DE' BECCADELLI BOLOGNA

NACQUE DI QUELLA STIRPE

ANTONIO DETTO IL PANORMITA

ONORE DI SUA CITTÀ E D'ITALIA

NEL XV SECOLO

--rossb (talk) 14:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

In this (building), which was the ancient Palazzo De'Beccadelli Bologna (ie, the palace of the De'Beccadelli family), was born of that family Antonio, called "the Palermitan" (the one from Palermo), pride of his city and of Italy, in the 15th century. -- Ferkelparade π 14:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Or: In this, which was the former palace of the Beccadelli Bologna [family], was born ... Given that Antonio's surname is given as Beccadelli not De' Beccadelli, I'd read the monument's "DE'" literally as of the. —Tamfang (talk) 04:12, 14 October 2008 (UTC)