Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 November 12
| Language desk | ||
|---|---|---|
| < November 11 | << Oct | November | Dec >> | November 13 > |
| Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives |
|---|
| The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
November 12 edit
are any words a pair (like the article a/an) but with the form chosen for whether a vowel or consonant sound PRECEDES it? edit
ResolvedWhen we say a [something], the a changes to an before a vowel sound. A lot of languages do something like that, if only out loud (liaison in French, e and ed in Italian, etc).
Does the same thing ever happen (in any language), where a pair of forms (or pronunciations) exist for a word, but the correct one is chosen based on whether a vowel or consonant sound PRECEDES the word??
I'm looking for something like:
| “ | The choice of the form specially or especially depends on whether a vowel sound or consonant sound precedes the word: the form will be especially after a consonant but specially after a vowel. For example "it is especially difficult...; it will be specially difficult... | ” |
Obviously this example isn't true: are there any examples that are? Thank you!
- In French, the hyphenated inverted form of a verb and a pronoun subject (as in one form of question, among other uses) has the element -t- inserted if the verb ends with a vowel and the pronoun begins with one. Thus "il dit" becomes "dit-il" but "il a" becomes "a-t-il". However, this is not a pure example because, as I said, it only happens when the pronoun also begins with a vowel. --Anonymous, 18:54 UTC, November 12, 2008.
- What makes you think it is an example at all, and that a-t-il should not be understood as making a t liason from the a? In fact, the French do this all the time, I've heard them make a z liaison with the p of trop. This is treated under Errors of liaison and has a name. If you scroll up a little, you'll see though that the t has been inserted by analogy with a lot of words that really do end in t, like dort-il. So it clearly should not be read as a till, since it wasn't dort til. Could you think of any other examples? 83.199.126.76 (talk) 19:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- The definite article in Welsh is ’r (IPA: [r]) after a vowel and y (IPA: [ə]) or yr (IPA: [ər]) after a consonant (y between two consonants and yr between a consonant and a vowel). So the form depends on the preceding sound, but if the preceding sound is a consonant the form also depends on the following sound. —Angr 19:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- I will analyze this example if there aren't any better candidates, but I would prefer something much simpler. We have more examples in English than a/an: a lot of people (including myself) exclusively say the as [thē] (the same as emphasizing the word, or saying thee) before a vowel: the event as [thē] event and not [thə] event. Going back to French, they don't only make Liaisons: they have entire word forms, such as the masculine "cet" that exist solely to come into play before a vowel. Another language I know, that isn't even indo-European, has a simple article change like a/an, but for the definite article. So I'd like to find a simple example of something that is only affected by the preceding sound, not both the preceding and following one. From a hasty analysis of your example, it looks like the definite article could be acting a bit similarly to the t in the French a-t-il, sounding in a way analogous to a liaison, even if not recorded that way. The written form of ’r before a vowel reminds me of English "I'd like to see 'er try that!" "I'd love to try 'em out". But because of the ', I'm dubious.... Though maybe the answer to finding an example is to look at the vernacular (in English), and the best example will be a suppression like 'em. I wonder if 'em comes statistically way more often (in registers in which it occurs) after a vowel?
- I assume you're talking about Hungarian a(z). The 'r of Welsh isn't vernacular and isn't optional; it's used in written Welsh too. (Incidentally, words starting with h count as vowel-initial.) Some concrete examples from Welsh, if you want them: tŷ'r meddyg "the doctor's house"; tŷ'r athro "the teacher's house"; car y meddyg "the doctor's car"; car yr athro "the teacher's car". —Angr 21:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Holy ****, how did you know I was thinking of Hungarian a(z)? Your examples have made it clear that you meant the 'r as a contraction, which I didn't realize. Maybe it's ultimately as far as I will get, but it's not really what I was looking for. But do I have it right that it is etymologically a contraction (even if today mandatory) and that the apostrophe stands for a suppressed y? In this case it is very close to what spoken Italians do, who blend the end of vowel sounds into the beginning of the next one -- there will be only one vowel where the two meet. It's an interesting effect in that case, but not exactly the different form I was looking for.
- Yes, the 'r is a contraction of yr, but even so the sound of the preceding word determines the form that's picked: tŷ yr meddyg (→ tŷ'r meddyg) but car y meddyg. —Angr 10:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you! Put in that way, your pair of sentences (car y meddyg / tŷ yr meddyg), are a perfect illustration of the effect I was looking for. Thank you. I'm marking this question resolved.
- Yes, the 'r is a contraction of yr, but even so the sound of the preceding word determines the form that's picked: tŷ yr meddyg (→ tŷ'r meddyg) but car y meddyg. —Angr 10:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- In Haitian Creole, there are five singular definite articles: a, la, an, nan, lan. They all are placed after the word they modify. There is no gender in Haitian Creole, and the choice of article depends solely on the last sound of the noun. For example, a occurs after non-nasalized vowels: drapo a "the flag" peyi a "the country." La is used after non-nasal consonants: pòt la "the door" bèt la "the animal." An is used after nasalized vowels: Pen an ([pɛ̃ ɑ̃]) "the bread" Dan an "the tooth." Nan is used after nasal consonants: plim nan "the pen" machin nan ([mɑʃin nɑ̃]) "the car." Lan is used if a nasal vowel is "close" to the end: lanp lan "the lamp."--el Aprel (facta-facienda) 02:39, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Holy ****, how did you know I was thinking of Hungarian a(z)? Your examples have made it clear that you meant the 'r as a contraction, which I didn't realize. Maybe it's ultimately as far as I will get, but it's not really what I was looking for. But do I have it right that it is etymologically a contraction (even if today mandatory) and that the apostrophe stands for a suppressed y? In this case it is very close to what spoken Italians do, who blend the end of vowel sounds into the beginning of the next one -- there will be only one vowel where the two meet. It's an interesting effect in that case, but not exactly the different form I was looking for.
- I assume you're talking about Hungarian a(z). The 'r of Welsh isn't vernacular and isn't optional; it's used in written Welsh too. (Incidentally, words starting with h count as vowel-initial.) Some concrete examples from Welsh, if you want them: tŷ'r meddyg "the doctor's house"; tŷ'r athro "the teacher's house"; car y meddyg "the doctor's car"; car yr athro "the teacher's car". —Angr 21:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- I will analyze this example if there aren't any better candidates, but I would prefer something much simpler. We have more examples in English than a/an: a lot of people (including myself) exclusively say the as [thē] (the same as emphasizing the word, or saying thee) before a vowel: the event as [thē] event and not [thə] event. Going back to French, they don't only make Liaisons: they have entire word forms, such as the masculine "cet" that exist solely to come into play before a vowel. Another language I know, that isn't even indo-European, has a simple article change like a/an, but for the definite article. So I'd like to find a simple example of something that is only affected by the preceding sound, not both the preceding and following one. From a hasty analysis of your example, it looks like the definite article could be acting a bit similarly to the t in the French a-t-il, sounding in a way analogous to a liaison, even if not recorded that way. The written form of ’r before a vowel reminds me of English "I'd like to see 'er try that!" "I'd love to try 'em out". But because of the ', I'm dubious.... Though maybe the answer to finding an example is to look at the vernacular (in English), and the best example will be a suppression like 'em. I wonder if 'em comes statistically way more often (in registers in which it occurs) after a vowel?
- Depending on what kind of examples you'd allow, you can also see examples in languages with vowel harmony, where the pronounciation of, e.g., case endings depends on the preceding vowels in the word (thus in Finnish Turku -> Turussa, but Helsinki -> Helsingissä). Baranxtu (talk) 14:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
DMZ우유 -- are there cows in the DMZ? edit
I know 우유 (u-yu) is Korean for milk, and in the context of Korea, DMZ stands for Demilitarized Zone. So what on earth is 서울우유 (Seoul Milk) doing with a product called DMZ우유? Feel free to move this to misc if it's more appropriate. --Taejo|대조 22:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- The full name appears to be 철원청정지역 DMZ우유 ; 철원(군) is a county in the 강원(도) province Cheorwon right near the border with North Korea. One webpage says that this milk is "pure, from the unblemished natural region of 철원". So I guess it really is from right near the DMZ, and that they are advertising it that way since there is a (I think true) perception that that region is relatively undeveloped and 'natural'.--71.58.71.191 (talk) 23:48, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
- Undeveloped and natural, yet full of soldiers, armament, and land mines? Is it good for the cows or something?--ChokinBako (talk) 04:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- I think 철원 is a relatively isolated county. There are land mines in the actual DMZ, but it seems the cows graze in fields near the border not on the actual border. I'd imagine there aren't many soldiers stationed in this county, but I can't confirm that. Here is a quote from our Wikipedia DMZ article: "Except in the area around the truce village of Panmunjeom and more recently on the Donghae Bukbu Line on the east coast, humans have not entered the DMZ in the last fifty years. This isolation has created one of the most well-preserved pieces of temperate land in the world. Environmentalists hope that if reunification occurs the former DMZ will become a wildlife refuge. However, there will be significant obstacles to maintaining the site because of the high concentration of landmines across the area."--71.58.71.191 (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
BUSINESS LETTER edit
I'm trying to write a business letter could you help me for grammer and business like and courteous letter as soon as possible the following is what I wrote please help me check the grammer:
Over the last months Jobss has conducted research and notice that what is different now is that a larger number of workers than normal have affected by more rapid change. These workers come from all different classes; even those classes witch in the old days seemed immune to the changes affecting everyone else, particular white collar workers and upper management. It’s very difficult in Canada as almost one million people are laid off annually which means more than 43 million jobs have been erased since 1999. This is beyond normal. In fact 7 out of 10 households know a relative, friend or neighbor who was laid off and 1 out of every three households has had a family member laid off. (Maryambb2001 (talk) 22:49, 12 November 2008 (UTC))
- Aside from grammar issues, you may want to look at spelling (witch, Jobss), and also consider the purpose of the letter. I.e., who is it going to and what is it intended to accomplish. Also the calculation that "almost one million people are laid off annually which means more than 43 million jobs have been erased since 1999" doesn't work out mathematically. Good luck. CBHA (talk) 23:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)