Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 August 18

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August 18

Null day (perhaps)

Is there nothing notable about this date? C'mon, lets not leave it empty. - hydnjo talk

Notability has nothing to do with it. It's just that no one had any questions that day. What's so bad about leaving it empty? —Angr 05:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

And on the seventeenth day, the Ref Desk rested. —Tamfang 04:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Logical language

I've always heard people describe a language as being 'logical' but how does one define that? Are there any languages at all that are illogical?

If you're talking about natural languages, "illogical" just means that it has a lot of irregularities and idioms, and "logical" means that it doesn't. English is pretty illogical that way, for example. --Anon, August 18, 02:11 (UTC).

For example: park in a drivway, drive in a parkway, etc. There are hundred of examples like that. Then there's the bassackwards pronunciation of English words — Words simply need to be memorized in a large number of cases. In contrast, many indic languages for example have extremely regular pronunciation and grammar. Hindi has only a few irregular verbs and they are so common that you learn them quickly. Even the script is logical and "alphabetical order" is mostly in the order of phonetic procession starting with sounds like k pronounced in the throat and moving to sounds like b using the lips. There are similarly logically structured examples for verbs and pronouns. - 68.72.13.0 04:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Lojban is designed to be completely unambiguous and machine-parseable. —Keenan Pepper 05:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Logical as it is often used is too vague to really mean anything with regard to language. I don't think it necessarily means regularities. It might, but it's not necessarily the case. My French teacher used to claim that "French is a logical language." French has plenty of irregular forms. The claim is that it is somehow more precise than other languages, which is nonsense. See the article "French is a logical language" by Anthony Lodge in the book Language Myths edited by Peter Trudgill and Laurie Bauer (Penguin 1998).mnewmanqc 12:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree that logical and illogical aren't good words to describe a language, any more than they are good words to describe a tree or an asteroid. This use is really a category mistake. If we're talking about the ability of French to express logical thought clearly, then I would respectfully suggest that French does well but not so well as English, largely because its vocabulary is more restricted. Of course, Rivarol wrote in Sur l'universalité de la langue française (and this is much quoted by the French) "Ce qui n'est pas clair n'est pas français ; ce qui n'est pas clair est encore anglais, italien, grec ou latin"! (That which is not clear is not French; that which is not clear is still English, Italian, Greek or Latin.) Xn4 21:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The Word "Colonel"

Does anyone know why exactly this word is spelled the way that it is, yet is pronounced "kernel" ... ? How did the "colo"-nel spelling come to be pronounced "ker"-nel? I assume (?) that the word comes into English from some foreign source. That being so, why can't the spelling have been changed to include an "r" letter ... or the pronunciation changed to match the spelling? And, does anyone know of any other similar words ("r" sound spelled with no letter "r")? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro 17:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC))

Chambers Dictionary says it is derived from the older French and Spanish coronel, which would, more or less, explain the pronunciation. Coronel in turn derives from the Italian colonello, the leader of a columb. Chambers goes on to say the spelling has been assimilated to the modern French. Hope this helps! DuncanHill 17:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Another similar word is "lieutenant" which is pronounced as "leftenant" in the U.S. and sometimes in Canada. Is it ever spelled with an "f"? In Canada, we used both pronunciations, but only the "lieu..." spelling. Bielle 01:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Really Bielle? I live in the US and I have never heard it pronounced "leftenant"- always pronounced loo-ten-ant, like it sounds. 68.231.151.161 01:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict):::Have never seen it spelt with an f. BTW IMO, the "leftenant" pronunciation is typically British, "lootenant" is US, but I understand that the RN sometimes pronounce it letenant. DuncanHill 01:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I have it backwards. (It's not a word I say very often.) Perhaps it is the British who say "left" and the U.S. that says "loo". I did say in my first post that both pronunciations are found in Canada, and I may just have reversed the facts. Sorry about that. Bielle 01:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

We have something on the possible pronunciations of 'lieutenant' and their history here - Lieutenant#Pronunciation. Xn4 01:34, 19 August 2007 (UTC)